Board 8 > Most Powerful Fictional Character 2011: Anti-Spiral vs. NoN Lelouch [MPFC]

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KanzarisKelshen
10/21/11 1:35:00 PM
#1:


The Rules:

-Matches will last exactly 24 hours. Votes after that much time has elapsed will not be counted, even if a new topic hasn't gone up yet.
-This is a contest to determine which character is the most *powerful*. Vote only for the character you think would win in a fight, not the one who's funnier, cooler, or sexier. If you don't do that I can't count your vote.
-BOLD YOUR VOTE. Unbolded votes will NOT be counted.
-Rallying is allowed. Alts are not.
-Fights will take place in a neutral terrain. This does not necessarily mean a *featureless* terrain: assume that both characters will have a chance to use all of their skills to the fullest here, barring setting-specific abilities and anything that requires the presence of multiple enemies (but see below).
-Characters start the fight alone. They don't bring allies with them, like Kerrigan and the Zerg Swarm for instance. Summons are allowed though, provided they're brought once combat has started.
-Fighters retain their usual personalities. They won't fight to kill unless that's their MO, and won't spam their best attacks to win unless, again, that's how they act in their original media.
-Similarly, fighters are unaware of their opponents capabilities at the start of the fight unless their powers facilitate them information (like knowing all there is to know in the universe - this would include who the opponent is and what he can do, as well as weaknesses)
-You don't have to justify your vote, but it helps. If you feel like you can add something to the debate, go right ahead!
-Seriously, BOLD THE VOTE. So important it bears repeating.
-Bracket Link, for viewing past results and future matches:
http://www.bracketmaker.com/tmenu.cfm?&tid=408528&tclass=

Past Results:
Richard's obscurity and few fans who could argue his case were his downfall, as Ryu Hayabusa easily dispatches him en route to Round 3.. Votals: 1-8

(3) Anti-Spiral
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The final villain of Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, the Anti Spiral is a universal threat. Riding a colossal mecha, it is large enough to manipulate galaxies, mashing two of them together to produce a big bang. He is also capable of manifesting incredibly detailed illusions, intended to fool those it targets into believing they are leading their perfect lives, as well as read the minds of sentient beings. It can channel Anti Spiral Energy, which, much like the Spiral Energy harnessed by its chief opposition, is capable of warping reality to suit the whims of a determined enough user.

vs.

(2) Lelouch vi Britannia
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From Code Geass: Nightmare of Nunally, Lelouch is a brilliant strategist who leads a rebellion against the Britannian Empire. Lelouch's special Geass ability gives him access to an suit of armor that enhances all of his natural physical abilities to the point of allowing him to dodge and fight giant robots. He has access to the special DOM system to disable any electronic devices or vehicles surrounding him, as well as strong telekinesis, able to stop attacks like an array of projectiles 360 degrees around him traveling faster than the speed of sound.

Lelouch's armor grants him amazing defenses, protecting him from attacks ranging from being punched by giant robots to being shot by an array of weapons (from hand guns to giant lasers) to no effect. Lelouch can even shrug off the pseudo-magical Geass abilities that are used against him. The armor's cape can act as an additional shield and can be used as a weapon as well. Lelouch can summon his robot, Gawain, at any time. This robot is the same as the one seen in Code Geass, armed with a wide variety of laser attacks and capable of flight.

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KanzarisKelshen
10/21/11 1:35:00 PM
#2:


Argument in Lelouch's favor courtesy of GANON1025:

Lelouch has an answer for everything Anti-Spiral can do.

1. Sending out Mugann/fighting himself

Lelouch is invincible, as in nothing Anti-Spiral or his things or whatever can harm him. Any attack that hits him turns into nothing, in a manner of speaking, but basically yeah he's invincible. And, even if he WAS hurt, even KILLED, Lelouch can revive himself instantly. There's the inherit immortality and regeneration from being the Black King, then there's The Dead Raise geass power that he can use on his own body even after he dies.

As for attacking, Lelouch has his own geass The Zero. By touching something, Lelouch can destroy it infintely. The only thing shown to resist The Zero had special geass protection and similar immortality to Lelouch which Anti-Spiral won't have. His flight plus geass powers like The Speed means he can keep up with the mugann. The Zero not only destroys the physical, but the metaphysical and interpretive. For example, when he gains his new powers Lelouch is contracted to abide by and serve under Eden Vital (gateway to heaven/alt universes, basically an almighty power). But using The Zero, Lelouch renders the agreement into nothing so he gets off free. AS may be able to go to an alternate dimension and send mugann through it (which is a dumb argument that undermines MPFC at its core and basically should not be allowed), but Lelouch can destroy all of them and he will not tire or become fatigued so he can continue to do so until AS appears himself. If he doesn't, Lelouch can use Eden Vital to cross into different dimensions. He can look into at and see different dimensions at once, so he can find which one AS is in.

Additionaly, Lelouch can read the past, present, and future of Anti-Spiral so that will probably come in handy. Lelouch can also use one of Nunally's powers to create a copy of himself for other shenanigans as well. AS is very arrogant, in direct combat he will try to match Lelouch's power instead of going overboard with any kind of super super robot thing. Even if he did ride a huge robot, Lelouch is still invincible and it just makes a bigger target to use The Zero on.

2. Anti-Spiral sends Lelouch into alternate universe / charade

Lelouch is a wired, and as such he has a special connection to a place called Eden Vital. Eden Vital is a sort of gateway through which characters, specifically Nunally and her geass, can look at and interact with alternate universes and other dimensions (such as Heaven). Nunally's geass is one of powers Lelouch is confirmed gaining by becoming the Black King. It would easy for him to break through Anti-Spiral's charade. This is an intuitive connection, even if Lelouch doesn't immediately realize what's wrong his wired connection would alert him to the shift in universes. This should also kick in for illusions and such, if he believes in it enough to be real his connection to Eden Vital will work as if it is real too.

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KanzarisKelshen
10/21/11 1:36:00 PM
#3:


Extra ideas that are more speculative:

- Lelouch can give the Anti-Spiral a geass power
Lelouch gains the ability to spread geass to whoever he chooses. If he wanted, he could give a power to AS. Why do this? Perhaps Lelouch gives him a power that has a heavy side-effect, or one that can somehow disrupt AS' natural abilities. Even something that distracts him for a little bit can be helpful. CC could also control geass users to some vague extent, Lelouch may be able to do the same here

- NoN Lelouch has CG Lelouch's powers, and more
With strong connections of alternate realities and such to NoN, plus CC herself being so connected to them and Eden Vital, it's not a huge leap to consider the various CCs of the different Code Geass universes being similar enough to share powers. Therefore, as inheritor of CC's abilities Lelouch would gain the geass powers of those other universes, including CG Lelouch's power of Absolute Obedience. Taking this notion of alternate universe powers even further, this would mean Lelouch could have abilities from other CG stories. These powers would include powers like Bless (force own thoughts into others) and a form of Absolute Obedience that relies upon voice instead of eye contact.

NoN Lelouch could also have CC's ability "to be loved", basically he can make anyone he wants fall in love with him. So we'll see how much the AS hates humans after Lelouch gets him under his spell heh heh he'll get some spiral power in him if you know what i mean

It's also not a huge leap to assume that perhaps NoN Lelouch already has such abilities thanks to becoming the Black King, and it was simply never given out to anyone. This sort of talk leads down a dark road of "well NoN Leouch can have any power he wants now", which is not a great place to go. But it's still a thought to bring up.

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KanzarisKelshen
10/21/11 1:36:00 PM
#4:


My personal opinion: The argument above grossly, grossly overhypes Lelouch. He won't have a chance to win this because his series' power level is very low. He is, quite simply, ****ed. Anti-Spiral.

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neonreaper
10/21/11 1:37:00 PM
#5:


Lelouch is invincible

Why isn;t this in his description?

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GANON1025
10/21/11 1:38:00 PM
#6:


That writeup up is somewhat outdated

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KanzarisKelshen
10/21/11 1:40:00 PM
#7:


From: neonreaper | #005
Lelouch is invincible

Why isn;t this in his description?


Because it's overhype. Nothing in his universe hurts him. This =/= invincible. As usual, an immovable object is only so until it meets an unstoppable force. And, believe it or not, Anti-Spiral is about 97% close to being a true example of unstoppable force.

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GANON1025
10/21/11 1:41:00 PM
#8:


No, his suit is LITERALLY described as being invincible by people who would know its limitations.

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KanzarisKelshen
10/21/11 1:41:00 PM
#9:


From: GANON1025 | #008
No, his suit is LITERALLY described as being invincible by people who would know its limitations.


And his suit is LITERALLY inside a universe. And the universe isn't invincible and a big crunch will kill Lelouch.

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GANON1025
10/21/11 1:42:00 PM
#10:


What does that even mean?

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XIII_rocks
10/21/11 1:42:00 PM
#11:


It means Anti-Spiral

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KanzarisKelshen
10/21/11 1:46:00 PM
#12:


From: GANON1025 | #010
What does that even mean?


It means I think that ANY claims of invincibility, in ANY medium, are bull****. This applies to Antispiral, Lelouch, Darsh, The Host, DC's The Presence, and everybody else you can think of. Invincibility is generally (read: pretty much every single time) overhyped because it just means 'this guy got punched by a strong guy and didn't feel it'. It never addresses such things as 'time doesnt' exist anymore and this guy exists in time', or 'the enemy deleted the character's author, the fiction he is in, and all its fans so he doesn't exist'. That would be good credit toward proving anybody's invincibility. Not just some talk that doesn't even go up to multiversal-busting hits.

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XIII_rocks
10/21/11 1:47:00 PM
#13:


doesn't even go up to multiversal-busting hits.

Something about this phrase is hilarious

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GANON1025
10/21/11 1:48:00 PM
#14:


But that's his power. The Zero turns anything into nothing. The suit turns any and all attack/damage into nothing.

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KanzarisKelshen
10/21/11 1:49:00 PM
#15:


From: XIII_rocks | #013
doesn't even go up to multiversal-busting hits.

Something about this phrase is hilarious


The fact that I'm talking about what is probably the second-highest value of damage a punch can inflict? Yeah, I agree. I just put concept manipulation on an entirely different level because it completely bypasses the enemy and instead starts attacking our base assumptions of how things work.

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XIII_rocks
10/21/11 1:50:00 PM
#16:


I just like the idea of someone going "that attack was lame, it didn't even blow up the multiverse !!"

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KanzarisKelshen
10/21/11 1:51:00 PM
#17:


From: GANON1025 | #014
But that's his power. The Zero turns anything into nothing. The suit turns any and all attack/damage into nothing.


Citation needed please. I want to see time getting deleted and Lelouch not giving a ****. I want to see his parents dying and him surviving in spite of becoming a walking temporal paradox. I want to see him tanking the elimination of the concept of existence. If he goes that far, he can tank anything Antispiral can throw at him.

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Pirateking2000
10/21/11 1:51:00 PM
#18:


Anti Spiral rofldestroys

seriously if what Kan said last battle is valid then it would go like this

AS doesn't bother (you must be at least planet buster+ for him to personally show up and do his LOL HAX move

so it would go

Low tier Mugann show up. Lelouch probably beats them

Mid Tier with a lot of low tier mugann show up: Lelouch probably beats them

BIG mugann show up Lelouch MAAYYYBE takes them somehow

Moon size Mugann shows up and rapes the planet.

In the end it would get to the point the planet Lelouch is on is destroyed and lelouch would be stuck floating in space getting lasered repeatedly

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GANON1025
10/21/11 1:52:00 PM
#19:


The only thing close to that is circumventing an almighty, ominipotent power for his own gains. The suit is just part of the manifestation of The Zero.

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KanzarisKelshen
10/21/11 1:52:00 PM
#20:


From: XIII_rocks | #016
I just like the idea of someone going "that attack was lame, it didn't even blow up the multiverse !!"


One of these days I'm gonna write some dramedy dealing with characters of that caliber and that line is gonna go in as a headliner quote. One of these days, when I can get a decent idea of how characters so divorced from us puny humans would act!

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GANON1025
10/21/11 1:57:00 PM
#21:


If it really got to the point that there was no longer a planet to stand on for Lelouch, he would probably return to Eden Vital, maybe go into another alternate universe.

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XIII_rocks
10/21/11 1:57:00 PM
#22:


Bahaha I would read that.

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Pirateking2000
10/21/11 1:58:00 PM
#23:


[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
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GANON1025
10/21/11 1:59:00 PM
#24:


What's that? Sending people into the alternate universe charade?

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KanzarisKelshen
10/21/11 2:02:00 PM
#25:


From: GANON1025 | #021
If it really got to the point that there was no longer a planet to stand on for Lelouch, he would probably return to Eden Vital, maybe go into another alternate universe.


Which is speculation. We never see this happen. It's not like the text implies he could really take hits of that level with a detailed explanation or anything. It's a throwaway comment. Fluff.

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Pirateking2000
10/21/11 2:02:00 PM
#26:


basically I deleted post cause i didn't really read about that Eden thing yet

after reading it still I don't think it would work

You can be aware of it problem is you would still be stuck there. Simon literally had to spiral power destroy / break out of said multiverse thing etc.

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GANON1025
10/21/11 2:02:00 PM
#27:


Would the charade copy Eden Vital? He should still be able to retreat, if you will, into there.

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Pirateking2000
10/21/11 2:04:00 PM
#28:


Realm of INFINITE possibilities

who knows it probably would copy said Eden thing and make Lelouch think he was fine or whatever. Problem is Lelouch would still be screwed.

Again this is all if it ever got to that point which it wouldn't

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GANON1025
10/21/11 2:04:00 PM
#29:


From: KanzarisKelshen | #026
Which is speculation. We never see this happen. It's not like the text implies he could really take hits of that level with a detailed explanation or anything. It's a throwaway comment. Fluff.


The text implies Lelouch is invincible and with The Zero he can turn anything into nothing. I can see where you're coming from, and I might have even agreed with you if this was someone else. But I'm the only person who's going to argue for Lelouch here, so I have to use anything I can to help him.

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GANON1025
10/21/11 2:05:00 PM
#30:


But copying Eden Vital is like copying Heaven or Hell. I know AS can make alternate universes, but can he go that far? I think Lelouch could pull himself out of it.

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Pirateking2000
10/21/11 2:10:00 PM
#31:


Labyrinth basically takes things you think are fine / normal / awesome and makes it so

Lelouch thinks this heaven like place is fine / normal? Thats what he is gonna be in.

Plus I think his suit wouldn't be able to do anything to say "Hey your in this hax move"

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JeffreyRaze
10/21/11 2:15:00 PM
#32:


Almost all of my stories tie into a central infinite multiverse, which is more or less ruled by beings who destroy trillions upon trillions of universes when the low tiered among them fight. These beings then get roflstomped by Ultima, who in turn is a flawed prototype of perfect Ultima, who can't be defeated by anything ever no matter what >_>.

EDIT: Forgot to vote for Anti Spiral. As much as the ability to Zero things is a great power, it just doesn't stack up against the real power of reality warping on a universal scale.

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GANON1025
10/21/11 2:16:00 PM
#33:


It's not really his suit, Lelouch has an intense connection to Eden Vital, which controls alternate universes. With The Zero and Black King powers, he has the ability to control and manipulate them as well. Which is what would give him insight into the charade.

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JeffreyRaze
10/21/11 2:18:00 PM
#34:


It's not a charade though, that's the nasty part of the labyrinth. It's all real, it's just not the reality you started in.

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Pirateking2000
10/21/11 2:20:00 PM
#35:


.Again though even if he was aware he would be stuck.

and again this is if it ever got to that point when it would end with lelouch stuck floating in space getting nuked by the lasers of mugann.

Also you say something about "if he can touch it he auto destroys?"

Mugann have uber shields and fly / can zerg from space.

Also would said "touch / destroy" move cause them to explode or just "vanish"

if the former they blow up into those color cube things and blow Lelouch up some more.

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GANON1025
10/21/11 2:24:00 PM
#36:


If he was aware of it, he could go to Eden Vital and start trying to manipulate the alternate universes. As for how things are destroyed, I think it shows both stuff blowing up and just disappearing throughout the story. Also, if he was stuck in space he can could transport into Eden Vital or even summon his robot to fly around in.

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GANON1025
10/21/11 2:27:00 PM
#37:


Nunally was able to see and had the opportunity to manipulate all realities at once iirc, Lelouch should be able to do it even better as the Black King.

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Pirateking2000
10/21/11 2:28:00 PM
#38:


^ Probably wouldn't work even if it did...have fun manipulating INFINITE realities...

so some of the low tier mugann (assuming he can somehow get past their shields) would either vanish or blow Lelouch up a hundred times over...

also the mech would probably be wrecked leaving Lelouch stranded again.

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GANON1025
10/21/11 2:28:00 PM
#39:


Err, *Demon King. Not that that matters.

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Pirateking2000
10/21/11 2:29:00 PM
#40:


ok thats "manipulate realities" right?

Assuming he could do that he is still stuck there

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GANON1025
10/21/11 2:29:00 PM
#41:


Also what happens to someone trapped in the illusion if they just stay in there? Do they eventually die in the real world?

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JeffreyRaze
10/21/11 2:30:00 PM
#42:


He wouldn't be aware of it anyways IMO. Hell, the labyrinth could very well turn him into the Code Geass Lelouch :P.

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Pirateking2000
10/21/11 2:31:00 PM
#43:


Also what happens to someone trapped in the illusion if they just stay in there? Do they eventually die in the real world?


Yes

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Pirateking2000
10/21/11 2:32:00 PM
#44:


He wouldn't be aware of it anyways IMO. Hell, the labyrinth could very well turn him into the Code Geass Lelouch :P.


That would be hilarious

NoN: What!? (Labyrinth)

cue this



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GANON1025
10/21/11 2:33:00 PM
#45:


They are described as both 'realities' and 'universes'. For example: external image

If Lelouch dies, then he can use The Dead Rise to revive himself. Would he still be in the illusion when he's revived?

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JeffreyRaze
10/21/11 2:33:00 PM
#46:


They become immobile in the real world as their mind/spirit are in an alternate reality. He wouldn't die as he'd likely be left alone at that point, and he can't die of old age as I recall, but it would likely be a victory through incapacitation. Course, he'd only break out the labyrinth once Lelouch started homing in on AS's pocket universe, before that it'd just be Mugann (which would do **** all to Lelouch IMO), and the planet buster anti spiral creations.

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Accel ACE
10/21/11 2:36:00 PM
#47:


Anti-Spiral

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Pirateking2000
10/21/11 2:36:00 PM
#48:


If Lelouch dies, then he can use The Dead Rise to revive himself. Would he still be in the illusion when he's revived?


Didn't you say lelouch was immortal? So wouldn't he not age and therefore would still be in the hax.

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"There comes a time in every man's or woman's life where they have to make **** up to cover their ass." - Hazama
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Gatarix
10/21/11 2:37:00 PM
#49:


#17 | KanzarisKelshen | Posted 10/21/2011 3:51:01 PM | message detail | quote
I want to see his parents dying


wow way to be a jerk


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You put your RESOLVE HAT back on, which conveniently is the same hat as your NORMAL HAT.
{Drakeryn}
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Pirateking2000
10/21/11 2:43:00 PM
#50:


[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
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