AKA: fetus Finally Got Caught Up On The Series and Now Can Accurately Rank the Characters
AKA: Holy Crap That Guy in the Epilogue Did That Stuff to Those Guys
I don't mean to brag, but I'm wicked smart. I got a 1360 on my SATs (which was pretty good back in the day), I took 7 AP courses in high school, I banged the prom queen (even though she was dating somebody else), and I came up with a functioning consumer-scale perpetual-motion energy-generating machine (which got shut down by the government).
All in all I'd say that I'm overly qualified to review, rate, and rank the characters from the A Song of Ice and Fire series.
SPOILERS: Seriously I have no compunction spoiling everything if you haven't read the books.
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"SMOKEDOG42O taught me how to feel love, but fetus taught me how to make love." - Pablo Escobar
edit: i really like this idea, might try and rustle up something of my own tonight. no write-ups or anything though obviously, wouldn't wanna steal yo shine like that.
Now this has me thinking about my top 25 characters, and what criteria would I use.
In terms of how developed of a character they are? How likeable? How cool their chapters are? Do I give credit for relevance, memories, etc?
Is there any way I don't put Ned Stark #1 despite knowing that there are more fully developed characters who have more elaborate arcs and who are more prominent as the story goes on?
I do not envy you this task, but I am glad that you have taken it up.
-- ##Alec Congrats to Guru champ SuperNiceDog! All hail our Guru overlord.
And I'm wrestling with those demons (or are they dragons (XFD)), Alec. I've been torn between rating characters higher or lower based on their story significance vs. their enjoyability in the series. It's a hard wall to come up to but I guess you just have to climb up it, no matter how many wildlings die in the attempt.
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"SMOKEDOG42O taught me how to feel love, but fetus taught me how to make love." - Pablo Escobar
edit: i really like this idea, might try and rustle up something of my own tonight. no write-ups or anything though obviously, wouldn't wanna steal yo shine like that.
Don't block my shine, shawty.
#25 coming here in a bit.
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"SMOKEDOG42O taught me how to feel love, but fetus taught me how to make love." - Pablo Escobar
Theon’s anger flared. He’d led men in war, hunted with a king, won honor in tourney melees, ridden with Brynden Blackfish and Greatjon Umber, fought in the Whispering Wood, bedded more girls than he could name, and yet this uncle was treating him as though he were still a child of ten. A Clash of Kings by George R. R. Martin (Theon I, p95-6)
Theon, let's face it, is a pretty despicable character. He reminds me of Final Fantasy XIII; I spent the entire first disc wanting to like it. I really did. I got to the second disc and started to actively dislike it. By the third disc I just didn't care.
That said, Theon kind of gets totally fascinating by the fifth book. My fiancee - who had finished the series months before I did - kept telling me "Oh ho ho; Theon gets what's coming to him." I was all like, "Well good! I hope he got his head chopped off!"
Long story short - Theon takes over Winterfell; he fakes killing Bran and Tommen; Winterfell gets taken over by Stark Bannermen; Theon gets taken in by Ramsay Snow, a sick, sick bastard. I was all, "Man, screw Theon. That dude's the pits."
But no. Ohhhhhh no no no no. Theon gets completely. Broken. Down. To the point where he doesn't even remember who he used to be. He forces himself to un-remember his days as heir to the Seastone Chair. He comes up with clever (and ingenious, as far as the writing goes) ways to remind himself of the name that Ramsay gives him - "Reek". He's a shell of a man, completely removed from reality and only concerned with what his master requests or expects of him.
I love the dichotomy of the original Theon - an heir to a throne, cocky, expectant, entitled, used to luxury - to the "Reek" Theon - missing digits, pale, submissive, and used to living in dungeons. Theon is a really fascinating character who, even at the end of ADwD, is still kind of morally ambiguous. Sure, he's done some horrible things, but you're still not sure if you should root for him, pity him, or want him to die.
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"SMOKEDOG42O taught me how to feel love, but fetus taught me how to make love." - Pablo Escobar
I feel that Theon has the best character arc in the books (only contestant being Jaime), and his chapters in Dance were the consistently best quality (in terms of writing and enjoyability) of anybody who got more than 4 chapters in that book.
I came into Dance "hating" Theon. He was one of the better written characters, but he was written to be unlikeable. Daddy issues, betrayal, needing to prove himself... good characterization, and makes sense, but I still wanted to punch him in the face as I listened to the things in his head. His actions in Clash ultimately helped break the back of the entire North, he led Cat/Robb to think Bran/Rickon were dead (and all of the bad stuff that came from that), basically doomed any chance of the Starks winning... I somewhat reveled in the idea of him getting captured by a despicable character so that he'd "get what's coming to him".
But then I read the first "Reek" chapter and it sickened me. I legitimately felt bad for my previous shadenfreude. And over the course of the book I actually came to really care about his redemption arc. Dance had it's flaws (basically anything in Essos not involving Barristan the Badass) but the Theon arc was fantastic and really does show how well GRRM can nail that **** when he's on his game.
-- ##Alec Congrats to Guru champ SuperNiceDog! All hail our Guru overlord.
Soon comes the cold, and the night that never ends.
Melisandre was kind of a "meh" character to me for the longest time. "Oh cool, a woman with those powders that change the color of fire from Are You Afraid of the Dark" I'd say. I thought she was just some charlatan playing Stannis for a fool, trying to get between him and Queen Selyse in the hopes that when he takes the Iron Throne she can become queen.
But then she makes his sword glow brighter than the Sun after burning Rattleshirt, and she, like, birthed an assassin shadow, and she likes killing kings because their blood is way powerful and that's when I started to think that maybe I was wrong about Melisandre. Maybe she really does have sick house magic powers.
I really like her chapter in ADwD, too. It kind of humanized her a little bit, and added to her mystique. She only sleeps one hour a night, if that? She kept Devan back because she didn't want Davos to lose all of his sons? She endures intense pain every time she tries to predict the future but hides it effortlessly because she's a supreme badass? Yeah, these are awesome things.
I'd probably have ranked her a little higher if she'd had more than just the one chapter. I'd really like to know more about her and how she got to become the way she is today.
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"SMOKEDOG42O taught me how to feel love, but fetus taught me how to make love." - Pablo Escobar
From: Giggsalot | #018 Here's a thrown together list. The only factor is "how much does Giggs like them," and the only thing that's in any way definitive is #1.
1. Hodor
I didn't need to read any further to know that Giggs has good opinions.
-- ##Alec Congrats to Guru champ SuperNiceDog! All hail our Guru overlord.
From: Giggsalot | #018 Here's a thrown together list. The only factor is "how much does Giggs like them," and the only thing that's in any way definitive is #1.
1. Hodor
I would probably not even think to rank Hodor, and yet I totally approve of this.
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"One toot on this whistle will take you to a far away land." -Toad, SMB3
I have been spending a lot of time recently trying to figure out what exactly Melisandre's powers are. Even after she's appeared in all of these books, we still are not sure.
Let's review what we know... 1.) Confirmed powers -Can read the flames (albeit imperfectly) -Shadowbabies -Can cast some kind of illusion spell on Mance/Rattleshirt. -ALSO has an array of essentially parlor tricks that she is willing to use to manipulate/deceive people for "the greater good", like changing the color of fire 2.) Beliefs -Believes in the war between R'hllor and the Great Other. -Believes that Stannis is Azor Ahai reborn AND the Prince that is Promised -Believes the associated prophecies (including dragons from stone?) -Believes that Stannis is now wielding Lightbringer (probably)
Specifically, I am interested in the leeches of king's blood that Melissandre credited with the deaths of the three kings. Did they really do anything? Reading through it again, I get the feeling that Melissandre SAW the three kings dying in her flames, knew Stannis would not be willing to sacrifice Edric Storm straight up, and used this to manipulate him into allowing her to sacrifice him for a prophecy/spell she truly believes in, that of awakening dragons from stone.
Just something fun to ponder.
****ing Melisandre man, still an enigma.
-- ##Alec Congrats to Guru champ SuperNiceDog! All hail our Guru overlord.
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When you've got a pretty-boy monkey on your back constantly calling you a puppet, you hardly want to seem like you're happy to be used. - DSakaCharanJ
From: AlecTrevelyan006 | #022 Specifically, I am interested in the leeches of king's blood that Melissandre credited with the deaths of the three kings. Did they really do anything? Reading through it again, I get the feeling that Melissandre SAW the three kings dying in her flames, knew Stannis would not be willing to sacrifice Edric Storm straight up, and used this to manipulate him into allowing her to sacrifice him for a prophecy/spell she truly believes in, that of awakening dragons from stone.
this is the impression I got, I think she was tricking Stannis there. although it would be interesting if the leeches actually did have an effect -- weren't most of the events that lead up to the deaths of the three kings already in motion before she did that?
From: saveus_Maria | #024 this is the impression I got, I think she was tricking Stannis there. although it would be interesting if the leeches actually did have an effect -- weren't most of the events that lead up to the deaths of the three kings already in motion before she did that?
If we assume that a faceless man hired by Euron killed Balon, and that Littlefinger and the Tyrells had already worked out to kill Joff while he was visiting in Clash of Kings (which seems likely), then yes, events should have been in motion.
-- ##Alec Congrats to Guru champ SuperNiceDog! All hail our Guru overlord.
yeah that sort of ties into another idea I have that her prophecy doesn't actually allow her to see the future, just things that are going on at the time but in different places from where she currently is (still a powerful tool, just not future sight). for example she would have seen that these plans have been set into motion, not actually seen a future vision with Euron, Joff, etc. being killed. this is why her prophecy is unpredictable.
From: saveus_Maria | #027 yeah that sort of ties into another idea I have that her prophecy doesn't actually allow her to see the future, just things that are going on at the time but in different places from where she currently is (still a powerful tool, just not future sight). for example she would have seen that these plans have been set into motion, not actually seen a future vision with Euron, Joff, etc. being killed. this is why her prophecy is unpredictable.
This is an interesting theory. It would match up with seeing the threats to her person (Davos plot, etc).
However, what does that mean about her vision that was interpreted as the attack at the bridge of skulls?
-- ##Alec Congrats to Guru champ SuperNiceDog! All hail our Guru overlord.
Dolorous Edd is on my list, guys. Jus' super sayin'.
#23: Daenerys Targaryen
The moon? -Daenerys Targaryen
Ya know, I'm just not that huge of a fan of Daenerys. Sure, she has her awesome points - I mean part of her title is "Mother of Dragons" for R'Hllor's sake* - and her awesome points are arguably awesomer than any other character's awesome points but...
She sits around. A lot. And she thinks about what to do. A lot. But she doesn't actually do very much. I love that she freed the Unsullied, and I love that she tamed and rode Drogon, and I love that she, like, kind of tamed Khal Drogo (because that dude's a boss), and I love her supporting cast (Strong Belwas, Barristan the Badass, and Mormont are all awesome), but aside from that and a few other p. cool things she's done, she just isn't very interesting. Hell, in ADwD she has three fully-grown dragons at her command and she still somehow manages to have some of the most boring chapters in the book.
While she's most definitely a pretty boring character, I do really like the compassion she has for her people and her need to be a kind and just leader. In a land filled with Lannisters, the Ghiscari, and Ramsay Bolton, Daenerys as a Queen is refreshing in that she actually cares about the individuals that she rules over. This is most readily evidenced when she frees the slaves in Slaver's Bay, but is also apparent when the flux is happening outside of Mereen and she takes a cadre to see how bad it is for herself. I may think she's boring but I can't dislike her. She's one of the best people in the series.
That said, if it weren't for her being able to ride dragons she probably wouldn't even be on my top 25. But she can. And that's awesome.
*Best Arya quote: "Who's Rulore?"
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"SMOKEDOG42O taught me how to feel love, but fetus taught me how to make love." - Pablo Escobar
I plan to write writeups about people as you go, but Daenerys just doesn't motivate me. Especially after the latest book.
I think it hurts that on the first readthrough I always felt Daenerys chapters were going to get awesome going forward. Mid-Thrones? Holy ****, badass, got the army, invasion time! Oh, Drogo died... but she has DRAGONS! She got to a new city... nothing worthwhile happens except a crazy vision quest.
Then she actually gets awesome for a few chapters in Storm, and it's like "YES. VINDICATION" and I was so psyched for her chapter in Dance.
And then after all those years, she's got a city, she's got an army, she's got Barristan the BAMF, and she's got 3 rapidly growing dragons... what does she do? Locks up 2 dragons, loses another, has about five chapters in a row that do not seem to have any progress whatsoever, then eventually disappears in a flurry of "Finally! She'll tame the dragon"... nope, she hasn't tamed it and has bloody miscarriage diarrhea.
Just such a letdown.
-- ##Alec Congrats to Guru champ SuperNiceDog! All hail our Guru overlord.
It would appear I've left a few questions unanswered! And with that it's time for reader mail! The first message comes from the user MarquessLaus. Marquess posts:
You read the spoiler TWOW chapter too?
Yep! I read it earlier today on my lunch break. I had a feeling that that was the way GRRM was going to go with the whole Stannis/Asha/Theon thing, and I thought the part with Maester Tybald sending the map to Winterfell was really interesting.
The next message comes from user AlecTrevelyan006. Alec writes:
FETUS: Have you read the Dunk and Egg tales? Will there be spoilers for them in here?
I read them, but I will try not to mention them if you haven't.
Nope! I frankly don't even know what you're talking about.
And with that said, it's time for some HONORABLE MENTIONS!!!
The first honorable mention goes to the Sand Snakes. So many snakes! I absolutely love the idea of a rogue assassin prince raising a bunch of bastard children and training each of them to be a different sort of world-class assassin. I didn't include them because A) none of them really stand out as especially good characters on their own, and B) I like the idea of them as a group.
Next up is the lore characters: Bran the Builder, Joramun, the Brandon's Gift Brandon Stark, Azor Ahai, etc.. I'm a sucker for lore and mythologies - maybe that's why I like the Silmarillion more than Tolkien's other stuff - and this stuff is all sorts of awesome to me. I geeked out when Bran got together with the Children of the Forest.
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"SMOKEDOG42O taught me how to feel love, but fetus taught me how to make love." - Pablo Escobar
fetus: Martin has thus far released three short stories in a series known as "The Tales of Dunk and Egg".
They are "The Hedge Knight", "The Sworn Sword" and "The Mystery Knight", and are set about a century before Game of Thrones, back when the Targaryens were still ruling. They follow "Dunk" (aka Ser Duncan the Tall, who has been mentioned a few times in passing as one of the great knights of the past in the main books) and his squire, along with cameos from a few characters in their youths or the relatives/ancestors of important characters.
They were earlier perceived as just fun but irrelevant tie ins to build lore, but as of the last book or so it's clear that they should be mandatory reading.
Unfortunately, they haven't been released as a set yet and are only officially available as parts of compilations of short stories.
Martin has announced he is working on another one now before Winds of Winter comes out.
So, I would suggest you find a way to get on those!
-- ##Alec Congrats to Guru champ SuperNiceDog! All hail our Guru overlord.
I am my own champion, my own fool, and my own harpist. -Mance Rayder
Immediately after I watched the prologue scene that started off the Game of Thrones series I wanted to know as much about the northern side of the wall as possible. Is it always winter there? Does anybody live there? How far north does it go? What the hell are those blue-eyed skeletons?
And then I started to read the books and before long the Night's Watch is ****ing camping out on hills miles north of the wall and Jon Snow and a guy with one-and-a-half hands are trying to meet up with the King Beyond the Wall, Mance Rayder. "Finally I'll get some answers!" I said out loud.
And Mance kind of delivered. I like his character for a few reasons, the main one being that he's just an all-around likeable guy. He's charming, kind, just, and an amazing bard. He's equally comfortable hanging out with giants as he is hanging out in Rattleshirt's glamor body.
The other main reason I like Mance so much isn't so much anything that he does or says, but that Martin made him into a kind of expository character, having him explain a bunch of stuff about the north to us, the reader. I appreciate that, George, but I'm glad that there are still a bunch of things we don't know about it, as well.
In summary, Mance Rayder is a man I aspire to be like. Only, like, wearing less human skin for warmth. That part kind of sucks.
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"SMOKEDOG42O taught me how to feel love, but fetus taught me how to make love." - Pablo Escobar