Board 8 > What if Judge Napolitano was awesome? (Official Ron Paul 2012 topic)

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metroid composite 02/18/12 9:12:00 PM #1:	I've listened to this rant like...ten times: I think it speaks for itself. ...Although I suppose I should include Smuffy's links too, for completeness: http://www.ronpaul2012.com/ http://www.revolutionpac.com/ http://www.dailypaul.com/ http://ronpaulswag.com/ -- Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision <cite>metroid composite posted [p:811520] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> I've listened to this rant like...ten times:I think it speaks for itself....Although I suppose I should include Smuffy's links too, for completeness:http://www.ronpaul2012.com/http://www.revolutionpac.com/http://www.dailypaul.com/http://ronpaulswag.com/ -- Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 02/18/12 9:17:00 PM #2:	*** sto my topic -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:811521] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> *** sto my topic -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
metroid composite 02/18/12 9:19:00 PM #3:	:P -- Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision <cite>metroid composite posted [p:811522] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> :P -- Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
MoogleKupo141 02/18/12 9:19:00 PM #4:	so is he a judge or is he named Judge -- For your SuperNiceDog. At least Kupo has class and doesn't MESSAGE the people -Dr Pizza <cite>MoogleKupo141 posted [p:811523] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> so is he a judge or is he named Judge -- For your SuperNiceDog.At least Kupo has class and doesn't MESSAGE the people -Dr Pizza </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 02/18/12 9:20:00 PM #5:	From: MoogleKupo141 \| #004 so is he a judge or is he named Judge both! well not NAMED judge but commonly called judge! -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:811524] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> From: MoogleKupo141 \| #004so is he a judge or is he named Judgeboth!well not NAMED judge but commonly called judge! -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
MoogleKupo141 02/18/12 9:21:00 PM #6:	so he's an actual judge and also a judge like Judge Reinhold is a judge ok -- For your SuperNiceDog. At least Kupo has class and doesn't MESSAGE the people -Dr Pizza <cite>MoogleKupo141 posted [p:811525] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> so he's an actual judge and also a judge like Judge Reinhold is a judgeok -- For your SuperNiceDog.At least Kupo has class and doesn't MESSAGE the people -Dr Pizza </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
foolm0ron 02/18/12 9:24:00 PM #7:	Is this the sequel topic? I guess I'll respond here If a church said it was against paying for surgeries in its health care plan, because, I don't know, the surgeon is "playing god" or something, would that be okay? Why do you think this is any different than the contraception thing? This is the weirdest thing about progressives that I have noticed. They are always trying to propose some "horrible" hypothetical to try to sway the opposition emotionally or something Yeah, if a church doesn't want to pay for surgeries in its health care plan, for ANY reason, it's doesn't need to pay for surgeries in its health care plan. What is so wrong about that? People can just use that other health care plan that DOES cover surgeries. -- _foolmo_ 'and out of the blue and completely unprovoked came foolmo and his insult' - Anagram <cite>foolm0ron posted [p:811526] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> Is this the sequel topic?I guess I'll respond hereIf a church said it was against paying for surgeries in its health care plan, because, I don't know, the surgeon is "playing god" or something, would that be okay?Why do you think this is any different than the contraception thing? This is the weirdest thing about progressives that I have noticed. They are always trying to propose some "horrible" hypothetical to try to sway the opposition emotionally or somethingYeah, if a church doesn't want to pay for surgeries in its health care plan, for ANY reason, it's doesn't need to pay for surgeries in its health care plan. What is so wrong about that? People can just use that other health care plan that DOES cover surgeries. -- _foolmo_'and out of the blue and completely unprovoked came foolmo and his insult' - Anagram </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 02/18/12 10:09:00 PM #8:	Yeah, back to the matter at hand. Here's Stu again. http://www.glennbeck.com/content/blog/stu/no-98-of-catholics-do-not-use-contraception/ So, this obviously is a complete and total lie by the MSM. What they say is "98% of catholic women use contraception." What the study ACTUALLY INDICATES is that 98% of women between the ages of 15-54 who are sexually active and who claim to be actively trying to avoid pregnancy use contraception. That's a huge difference, and it becomes a self-affirming statement. Well DUH, if you're sexually active, and trying to avoid pregnancy, of COURSE you're going to be using contraception, unless you're an idiot or something? Furthermore, the only reason the media even quotes the 98% statistic is to drive home the narrative of "the catholic church leadership is out of touch, real catholics don't even obey those rules anyway." Except that the "rules" of catholicism ALSO include not having sex out of wedlock and not attempting to avoid pregnancy. So what the study really says is that women who don't listen to the catholic church on the rules of sex also don't listen to the catholic church on the rules of contraception. Also, 40% of the women in this survey admit to having gone to church "less than once a month" or "never" so yeah, they don't seem hugely catholic to me. Now for this little nugget of joy. If a church said it was against paying for surgeries in its health care plan, because, I don't know, the surgeon is "playing god" or something, would that be okay? In a word - YES, that would be totally okay. In fact, it doesn't go far enough. Nobody should be forced to pay for the expenses of anybody else. Period. Next question. The idea that the only possible way birth control can be "available to women" is by having their employer buy it for them is ludicrous. Asinine. Completely and totally false. I'm completely in favor of birth control being available to all women who choose to purchase it. I'm just fine with private charities who wish to provide birth control to women free of charge. I just don't see one compelling reason why I should have to pay for it. Don't tell me it's a "women's health" issue. Pregnancy is not a disease. It is also 100% avoidable, even without birth control, by abstaining from sex. The notion that somehow the Catholic Church, Microsoft, or any taxpaying individual should somehow be forced to purchase birth control for some random slut is such an obvious and egregious violation of individual freedom that it almost makes me sick. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:811527] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> Yeah, back to the matter at hand. Here's Stu again.http://www.glennbeck.com/content/blog/stu/no-98-of-catholics-do-not-use-contraception/So, this obviously is a complete and total lie by the MSM. What they say is "98% of catholic women use contraception." What the study ACTUALLY INDICATES is that 98% of women between the ages of 15-54 who are sexually active and who claim to be actively trying to avoid pregnancy use contraception. That's a huge difference, and it becomes a self-affirming statement. Well DUH, if you're sexually active, and trying to avoid pregnancy, of COURSE you're going to be using contraception, unless you're an idiot or something? Furthermore, the only reason the media even quotes the 98% statistic is to drive home the narrative of "the catholic church leadership is out of touch, real catholics don't even obey those rules anyway." Except that the "rules" of catholicism ALSO include not having sex out of wedlock and not attempting to avoid pregnancy. So what the study really says is that women who don't listen to the catholic church on the rules of sex also don't listen to the catholic church on the rules of contraception. Also, 40% of the women in this survey admit to having gone to church "less than once a month" or "never" so yeah, they don't seem hugely catholic to me.Now for this little nugget of joy.If a church said it was against paying for surgeries in its health care plan, because, I don't know, the surgeon is "playing god" or something, would that be okay?In a word - YES, that would be totally okay. In fact, it doesn't go far enough. Nobody should be forced to pay for the expenses of anybody else. Period. Next question. The idea that the only possible way birth control can be "available to women" is by having their employer buy it for them is ludicrous. Asinine. Completely and totally false. I'm completely in favor of birth control being available to all women who choose to purchase it. I'm just fine with private charities who wish to provide birth control to women free of charge. I just don't see one compelling reason why I should have to pay for it. Don't tell me it's a "women's health" issue. Pregnancy is not a disease. It is also 100% avoidable, even without birth control, by abstaining from sex. The notion that somehow the Catholic Church, Microsoft, or any taxpaying individual should somehow be forced to purchase birth control for some random slut is such an obvious and egregious violation of individual freedom that it almost makes me sick. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
GaryOak151 02/18/12 10:41:00 PM #9:	From: SmartMuffin \| #008 any taxpaying individual should somehow be forced to purchase birth control for some random slut what the hell dude -- Warning_Crazy Winner of Board 8 Big Brother! i may be running for senatorship (thanks nio) but i'm no SUPERNICEDOG <cite>GaryOak151 posted [p:811528] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> From: SmartMuffin \| #008any taxpaying individual should somehow be forced to purchase birth control for some random slutwhat the hell dude -- Warning_Crazy Winner of Board 8 Big Brother! i may be running for senatorship (thanks nio) but i'm no SUPERNICEDOG </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Pacmantis 02/18/12 10:43:00 PM #10:	smartmuffin and women get along like smartmuffin and women -- Muglekoopo14 Wakka wakka wakka consumes you <cite>Pacmantis posted [p:811529] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> smartmuffin and women get along like smartmuffin and women -- Muglekoopo14Wakka wakka wakka consumes you </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
foolm0ron 02/18/12 10:53:00 PM #11:	From: Pacmantis \| #010 smartmuffin and women get along like smartmuffin and women A little harsh, no? -- _foolmo_ 'Most people at least try to say something funny. See foolmo's post as an example.' - The Real Truth <cite>foolm0ron posted [p:811530] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> From: Pacmantis \| #010smartmuffin and women get along like smartmuffin and womenA little harsh, no? -- _foolmo_'Most people at least try to say something funny. See foolmo's post as an example.' - The Real Truth </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
edwardsdv 02/18/12 10:58:00 PM #12:	From: SmartMuffin \| #008 Yeah, back to the matter at hand. Here's Stu again. http://www.glennbeck.com/content/blog/stu/no-98-of-catholics-do-not-use-contraception/ So, this obviously is a complete and total lie by the MSM. What they say is "98% of catholic women use contraception." What the study ACTUALLY INDICATES is that 98% of women between the ages of 15-54 who are sexually active and who claim to be actively trying to avoid pregnancy use contraception. That's a huge difference, and it becomes a self-affirming statement. Well DUH, if you're sexually active, and trying to avoid pregnancy, of COURSE you're going to be using contraception, unless you're an idiot or something? Furthermore, the only reason the media even quotes the 98% statistic is to drive home the narrative of "the catholic church leadership is out of touch, real catholics don't even obey those rules anyway." Except that the "rules" of catholicism ALSO include not having sex out of wedlock and not attempting to avoid pregnancy. So what the study really says is that women who don't listen to the catholic church on the rules of sex also don't listen to the catholic church on the rules of contraception. Also, 40% of the women in this survey admit to having gone to church "less than once a month" or "never" so yeah, they don't seem hugely catholic to me. Now for this little nugget of joy. I've been Catholic all my life and have never personally met a catholic who toed the "no contraception line." In fact, it was my VERY catholic grandmother who gave me the "Don't be a Silly, wrap your willy" speech, so the church taking such a stand here both confuses me and fails to resonate with that facts of my Catholic life. Just sayin. -- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.png edwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously? <cite>edwardsdv posted [p:811531] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> From: SmartMuffin \| #008Yeah, back to the matter at hand. Here's Stu again.http://www.glennbeck.com/content/blog/stu/no-98-of-catholics-do-not-use-contraception/So, this obviously is a complete and total lie by the MSM. What they say is "98% of catholic women use contraception." What the study ACTUALLY INDICATES is that 98% of women between the ages of 15-54 who are sexually active and who claim to be actively trying to avoid pregnancy use contraception. That's a huge difference, and it becomes a self-affirming statement. Well DUH, if you're sexually active, and trying to avoid pregnancy, of COURSE you're going to be using contraception, unless you're an idiot or something? Furthermore, the only reason the media even quotes the 98% statistic is to drive home the narrative of "the catholic church leadership is out of touch, real catholics don't even obey those rules anyway." Except that the "rules" of catholicism ALSO include not having sex out of wedlock and not attempting to avoid pregnancy. So what the study really says is that women who don't listen to the catholic church on the rules of sex also don't listen to the catholic church on the rules of contraception. Also, 40% of the women in this survey admit to having gone to church "less than once a month" or "never" so yeah, they don't seem hugely catholic to me.Now for this little nugget of joy.I've been Catholic all my life and have never personally met a catholic who toed the "no contraception line."In fact, it was my VERY catholic grandmother who gave me the "Don't be a Silly, wrap your willy" speech, so the church taking such a stand here both confuses me and fails to resonate with that facts of my Catholic life.Just sayin. -- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.pngedwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
metroid composite 02/19/12 12:09:00 AM #13:	Well...I'm of the opinion that health care should be socialized, at which point the Catholic church would not be paying for contraceptives because they are a religion and therefore don't pay taxes. Employers being required to provide insurance is basically just an additional tax on...either the employer or the taxpayer depending on the specifics of the agreement. But given that you have this extra tax essentially administrated by a corporation, yeah, there are regulations on what insurance companys can and cannot leave out. Otherwise you'd have insurance companies for the nuclear waste workers refusing to cover cancer treatment. -- Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision <cite>metroid composite posted [p:811532] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> Well...I'm of the opinion that health care should be socialized, at which point the Catholic church would not be paying for contraceptives because they are a religion and therefore don't pay taxes.Employers being required to provide insurance is basically just an additional tax on...either the employer or the taxpayer depending on the specifics of the agreement.But given that you have this extra tax essentially administrated by a corporation, yeah, there are regulations on what insurance companys can and cannot leave out. Otherwise you'd have insurance companies for the nuclear waste workers refusing to cover cancer treatment. -- Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LordoftheMorons 02/19/12 12:22:00 AM #14:	Well my arguments certainly aren't going to convince you if you don't think healthcare is a right. Personally, I don't want to live in a society where we would let someone die because they didn't have the money to pay for live saving operation. The problem with "just choose another health plan that isn't provided by your employer" is that healthcare is expensive. I don't know what the typical church employee makes, but I'm guessing a lot of them don't make enough to be buying their own plans instead of using what the church provides them (again if you don't think an employer should have to provide healthcare at all, I can see how this argument would fall flat). By the way SMuffin there's a benefit to you and society in general in preventing unwanted pregnancies; those tend to cost society a lot more than a little birth control. -- No I'm not a damn furry. Looney Tunes are different. - Guiga I wanted Sonic/Shadow romance at that time, not sex. - MWE <cite>LordoftheMorons posted [p:811533] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> Well my arguments certainly aren't going to convince you if you don't think healthcare is a right. Personally, I don't want to live in a society where we would let someone die because they didn't have the money to pay for live saving operation.The problem with "just choose another health plan that isn't provided by your employer" is that healthcare is expensive. I don't know what the typical church employee makes, but I'm guessing a lot of them don't make enough to be buying their own plans instead of using what the church provides them (again if you don't think an employer should have to provide healthcare at all, I can see how this argument would fall flat).By the way SMuffin there's a benefit to you and society in general in preventing unwanted pregnancies; those tend to cost society a lot more than a little birth control. -- No I'm not a damn furry. Looney Tunes are different. - GuigaI wanted Sonic/Shadow romance at that time, not sex. - MWE </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
foolm0ron 02/19/12 12:41:00 AM #15:	Why does anyone that disagrees with you not think that healthcare is a right? If you think healthcare is a right, you want everyone to have fair and adequate healthcare, right? So as long as the proposed system achieves that goal, it doesn't matter, right? We both want the same thing. You really don't need to dilute the argument with statements like these. Let's focus on the policies, and the results of these policies in practice, okay? It's important to look at what the policies are actually doing, and not what they are "intended" to do. First is the issue of socialized healthcare. Healthcare is by nature NOT socializable. Literally everyone has different needs. It's not like police/fire department where everyone receives the same treatment. If you pay for everyone's healthcare equally, then the ones that need/want less suffer. Now, if we had an entirely socialized economic system, where the inequalities in a socialized healthcare system would balance themselves out in other areas of the economy, then sure, it could MAYBE all work out well and balanced, if it were very well designed and executed. This is not the case at all in America. Next is exactly the problem you are describing. There is no competition when the government gives such huge benefits to organizations that provide general healthcare to their employees like that. The fact that there is no competition is exactly why this dumb little issue is even a big deal right now. If Sony announced that all their future TVs will now be in black & white, no one would give a **, because there are tons of other TVs they could get to satisfy their needs. But no, instead of spending our time on broader issues, we have to sit around and go over tiny details in policies like this for WEEKS at a time. It really does not make any sense. -- _foolmo_** 'and out of the blue and completely unprovoked came foolmo and his insult' - Anagram <cite>foolm0ron posted [p:811534] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> Why does anyone that disagrees with you not think that healthcare is a right?If you think healthcare is a right, you want everyone to have fair and adequate healthcare, right? So as long as the proposed system achieves that goal, it doesn't matter, right? We both want the same thing.You really don't need to dilute the argument with statements like these. Let's focus on the policies, and the results of these policies in practice, okay? It's important to look at what the policies are actually doing, and not what they are "intended" to do.First is the issue of socialized healthcare. Healthcare is by nature NOT socializable. Literally everyone has different needs. It's not like police/fire department where everyone receives the same treatment. If you pay for everyone's healthcare equally, then the ones that need/want less suffer. Now, if we had an entirely socialized economic system, where the inequalities in a socialized healthcare system would balance themselves out in other areas of the economy, then sure, it could MAYBE all work out well and balanced, if it were very well designed and executed. This is not the case at all in America.Next is exactly the problem you are describing. There is no competition when the government gives such huge benefits to organizations that provide general healthcare to their employees like that. The fact that there is no competition is exactly why this dumb little issue is even a big deal right now. If Sony announced that all their future TVs will now be in black & white, no one would give a ****, because there are tons of other TVs they could get to satisfy their needs.But no, instead of spending our time on broader issues, we have to sit around and go over tiny details in policies like this for WEEKS at a time. It really does not make any sense. -- _foolmo_'and out of the blue and completely unprovoked came foolmo and his insult' - Anagram </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
redrocket 02/19/12 12:50:00 AM #16:	By the way SMuffin there's a benefit to you and society in general in preventing unwanted pregnancies; those tend to cost society a lot more than a little birth control. Be careful here. You are assuming that Smartmuffin thinks that society should be responsible for any of the costs associated with unwanted pregnancies. -- From his looks Magus is Macho Man Randy Savage as an anime zombie. The black wind howls, and one of you will snap into a Slim Jim ooh yeeeah! -sonicblastpunch <cite>redrocket posted [p:811535] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> By the way SMuffin there's a benefit to you and society in general in preventing unwanted pregnancies; those tend to cost society a lot more than a little birth control.Be careful here. You are assuming that Smartmuffin thinks that society should be responsible for any of the costs associated with unwanted pregnancies. -- From his looks Magus is Macho Man Randy Savage as an anime zombie. The black wind howls, and one of you will snap into a Slim Jim ooh yeeeah! -sonicblastpunch </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LordoftheMorons 02/19/12 1:06:00 AM #17:	If you do think healthcare is a right, sorry for implying otherwise. I'm not insisting on a "one size fits all" plan; I definitely think everyone should be covered though. I'm also not claiming that the current healthcare system is optimal; there's definitely room for improvement. SMuffin's "nobody should ever have be forced to in any way pay for something for anybody else" plan is definitely not going to result in universal coverage, though. If everybody is going to have healthcare, someone as to pay for it, and not everyone can themselves. *redrocket posted...* By the way SMuffin there's a benefit to you and society in general in preventing unwanted pregnancies; those tend to cost society a lot more than a little birth control. Be careful here. You are assuming that Smartmuffin thinks that society should be responsible for any of the costs associated with unwanted pregnancies. Well there are costs he'd have to deal with even in a society with an absolutely minimal government; for example, heightened crime rates due to the existence of kids whose parents never wanted them and do a s**ty job raising them as a result (before somebody accuses me of claiming this, I'm not saying anywhere near all* unwanted kids will be criminals). -- No I'm not a damn furry. Looney Tunes are different. - Guiga I wanted Sonic/Shadow romance at that time, not sex. - MWE <cite>LordoftheMorons posted [p:811536] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> If you do think healthcare is a right, sorry for implying otherwise. I'm not insisting on a "one size fits all" plan; I definitely think everyone should be covered though. I'm also not claiming that the current healthcare system is optimal; there's definitely room for improvement.SMuffin's "nobody should ever have be forced to in any way pay for something for anybody else" plan is definitely not going to result in universal coverage, though. If everybody is going to have healthcare, someone as to pay for it, and not everyone can themselves.redrocket posted...By the way SMuffin there's a benefit to you and society in general in preventing unwanted pregnancies; those tend to cost society a lot more than a little birth control.Be careful here. You are assuming that Smartmuffin thinks that society should be responsible for any of the costs associated with unwanted pregnancies.Well there are costs he'd have to deal with even in a society with an absolutely minimal government; for example, heightened crime rates due to the existence of kids whose parents never wanted them and do a s***ty job raising them as a result (before somebody accuses me of claiming this, I'm not saying anywhere near all unwanted kids will be criminals). -- No I'm not a damn furry. Looney Tunes are different. - GuigaI wanted Sonic/Shadow romance at that time, not sex. - MWE </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
foolm0ron 02/19/12 2:04:00 AM #18:	From: LordoftheMorons \| #017 and not everyone can themselves What do you mean? As long as someone has any amount of money, and doesn't have insurance, then there will be someone trying to sell him insurance. Obviously not everyone can have the top coverage that pays for everything, but they can get what they feel works for their current situation. I mean, if someone had absolutely no money, then they couldn't pay for it, but they also couldn't pay for rent or food. So a homeless person with no job and no way to pay for anything beyond small amounts of food, I guess they would have to rely on charity. This is a very small part of the population, but how would government involvement would help these people more than it hurts them? -- _foolmo_ 'To be foolmo'd is to be better opinion'd.' - Blairville <cite>foolm0ron posted [p:811537] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> From: LordoftheMorons \| #017and not everyone can themselvesWhat do you mean? As long as someone has any amount of money, and doesn't have insurance, then there will be someone trying to sell him insurance. Obviously not everyone can have the top coverage that pays for everything, but they can get what they feel works for their current situation. I mean, if someone had absolutely no money, then they couldn't pay for it, but they also couldn't pay for rent or food. So a homeless person with no job and no way to pay for anything beyond small amounts of food, I guess they would have to rely on charity. This is a very small part of the population, but how would government involvement would help these people more than it hurts them? -- _foolmo_'To be foolmo'd is to be better opinion'd.' - Blairville </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Jigwally 02/19/12 2:04:00 AM #19:	b8 im so lonely please help me out here <cite>Jigwally posted [p:811538] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> b8 im so lonelyplease help me out here </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LordoftheMorons 02/19/12 2:13:00 AM #20:	Well presumably an insurance company isn't going to sell insurance unless it's an expected profit for them. I'm not sure how much a sum of all treatment costs of all life threatening conditions weighted by probability of occurring would come out to, but I would imagine it would be more than someone who's just barely scraping by can afford. I'm also not really seeing how the government's involvement would be hurting the ultra-poor in this scenario; presumably they're not making enough to be taxed. -- No I'm not a damn furry. Looney Tunes are different. - Guiga I wanted Sonic/Shadow romance at that time, not sex. - MWE <cite>LordoftheMorons posted [p:811539] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> Well presumably an insurance company isn't going to sell insurance unless it's an expected profit for them. I'm not sure how much a sum of all treatment costs of all life threatening conditions weighted by probability of occurring would come out to, but I would imagine it would be more than someone who's just barely scraping by can afford.I'm also not really seeing how the government's involvement would be hurting the ultra-poor in this scenario; presumably they're not making enough to be taxed. -- No I'm not a damn furry. Looney Tunes are different. - GuigaI wanted Sonic/Shadow romance at that time, not sex. - MWE </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
#21	Post #21 was unavailable or deleted.
SmartMuffin 02/19/12 9:34:00 AM #22:	I've been Catholic all my life and have never personally met a catholic who toed the "no contraception line." That's cool. It may very well be true that a huge majority of catholics ignore church doctrine on this issue. My point is that the survey cited by the media does NOT adequately prove this case, though. They are putting a ridiculous amount of spin on it to try and prove a political point that it doesn't actually prove. I'd be very interested to find, in a survey of ALL catholic women, what percentage regularly use contraception. That survey would give us an accurate read on this issue. That survey either doesn't exist, or isn't being reported (presumably because it doesn't make a point that favors the left). Well...I'm of the opinion that health care should be socialized, at which point the Catholic church would not be paying for contraceptives because they are a religion and therefore don't pay taxes. Separate issue. I'm obviously opposed to socialized health care. But aside from that, explain to me how birth control pills count as "health care." Pregnancy is not a disease. If you want birth control pills for the sole purpose of engaging in consequence-free sex, it stops being medicine and becomes a recreational drug that you are taking for entertainment, not health purposes. Personally, I don't want to live in a society where we would let someone die because they didn't have the money to pay for live saving operation. And I don't want to live in a society where we point a gun at a doctor's head and say "save this person's life or we throw you in jail." By the way SMuffin there's a benefit to you and society in general in preventing unwanted pregnancies; those tend to cost society a lot more than a little birth control. And this gets into the "moral hazard" argument I've ventured before. Once you start thinking about everything in terms of "societal costs," totalitarianism is just a stone's throw away. This is why death panels are a legitimate concern. Old people on dialysis cost a lot of money to keep alive, and they've been around for a good long time, and they probably aren't going to do much good for society in the rest of their lives, so we should really just pull the plug and let them die, right? If your goal is to minimize "societal costs" then there are a LOT of medical treatments we shouldn't be funding, and a lot of freedoms that we shouldn't allow people. Fat people cost a lot more than healthy people, right? Maybe every morning we should all be forced to do calisthenics in front of a two-way video camera, eh? -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:811541] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> I've been Catholic all my life and have never personally met a catholic who toed the "no contraception line."That's cool. It may very well be true that a huge majority of catholics ignore church doctrine on this issue. My point is that the survey cited by the media does NOT adequately prove this case, though. They are putting a ridiculous amount of spin on it to try and prove a political point that it doesn't actually prove. I'd be very interested to find, in a survey of ALL catholic women, what percentage regularly use contraception. That survey would give us an accurate read on this issue. That survey either doesn't exist, or isn't being reported (presumably because it doesn't make a point that favors the left).Well...I'm of the opinion that health care should be socialized, at which point the Catholic church would not be paying for contraceptives because they are a religion and therefore don't pay taxes.Separate issue. I'm obviously opposed to socialized health care. But aside from that, explain to me how birth control pills count as "health care." Pregnancy is not a disease. If you want birth control pills for the sole purpose of engaging in consequence-free sex, it stops being medicine and becomes a recreational drug that you are taking for entertainment, not health purposes.Personally, I don't want to live in a society where we would let someone die because they didn't have the money to pay for live saving operation.And I don't want to live in a society where we point a gun at a doctor's head and say "save this person's life or we throw you in jail."By the way SMuffin there's a benefit to you and society in general in preventing unwanted pregnancies; those tend to cost society a lot more than a little birth control.And this gets into the "moral hazard" argument I've ventured before. Once you start thinking about everything in terms of "societal costs," totalitarianism is just a stone's throw away. This is why death panels are a legitimate concern. Old people on dialysis cost a lot of money to keep alive, and they've been around for a good long time, and they probably aren't going to do much good for society in the rest of their lives, so we should really just pull the plug and let them die, right? If your goal is to minimize "societal costs" then there are a LOT of medical treatments we shouldn't be funding, and a lot of freedoms that we shouldn't allow people. Fat people cost a lot more than healthy people, right? Maybe every morning we should all be forced to do calisthenics in front of a two-way video camera, eh? -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 02/19/12 10:15:00 AM #23:	-- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:811542] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Mr Lasastryke 02/19/12 10:29:00 AM #24:	Old people on dialysis cost a lot of money to keep alive, and they've been around for a good long time, and they probably aren't going to do much good for society in the rest of their lives, so we should really just pull the plug and let them die, right? slippery slope. <cite>Mr Lasastryke posted [p:811543] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> Old people on dialysis cost a lot of money to keep alive, and they've been around for a good long time, and they probably aren't going to do much good for society in the rest of their lives, so we should really just pull the plug and let them die, right?slippery slope. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 02/19/12 10:38:00 AM #25:	From: Mr Lasastryke \| #024 Old people on dialysis cost a lot of money to keep alive, and they've been around for a good long time, and they probably aren't going to do much good for society in the rest of their lives, so we should really just pull the plug and let them die, right? slippery slope. Pretty sure we've been over this a million times before. You can't just say "slippery slope" and leave. You have to actually respond to the argument and prove how the two conditions are unrelated. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:811544] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> From: Mr Lasastryke \| #024Old people on dialysis cost a lot of money to keep alive, and they've been around for a good long time, and they probably aren't going to do much good for society in the rest of their lives, so we should really just pull the plug and let them die, right?slippery slope.Pretty sure we've been over this a million times before. You can't just say "slippery slope" and leave. You have to actually respond to the argument and prove how the two conditions are unrelated. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Mr Lasastryke 02/19/12 10:43:00 AM #26:	You can't just say "slippery slope" and leave. Yes, I can. Slippery slope is a logical fallacy. <cite>Mr Lasastryke posted [p:811545] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> You can't just say "slippery slope" and leave.Yes, I can. Slippery slope is a logical fallacy. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
edwardsdv 02/19/12 10:43:00 AM #27:	From: SmartMuffin \| #022 That's cool. It may very well be true that a huge majority of catholics ignore church doctrine on this issue. My point is that the survey cited by the media does NOT adequately prove this case, though. They are putting a ridiculous amount of spin on it to try and prove a political point that it doesn't actually prove. I'd be very interested to find, in a survey of ALL catholic women, what percentage regularly use contraception. That survey would give us an accurate read on this issue. That survey either doesn't exist, or isn't being reported (presumably because it doesn't make a point that favors the left) I wouldn't just limit it to women-- men use contraception too you know! But otherwise, I 'd be interested in seeing the results too. -- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.png edwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously? <cite>edwardsdv posted [p:811546] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> From: SmartMuffin \| #022That's cool. It may very well be true that a huge majority of catholics ignore church doctrine on this issue. My point is that the survey cited by the media does NOT adequately prove this case, though. They are putting a ridiculous amount of spin on it to try and prove a political point that it doesn't actually prove. I'd be very interested to find, in a survey of ALL catholic women, what percentage regularly use contraception. That survey would give us an accurate read on this issue. That survey either doesn't exist, or isn't being reported (presumably because it doesn't make a point that favors the left)I wouldn't just limit it to women-- men use contraception too you know! But otherwise, I 'd be interested in seeing the results too. -- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.pngedwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously? </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 02/19/12 10:56:00 AM #28:	I wouldn't just limit it to women-- men use contraception too you know! I do indeed! But for some reason, nobody seems up in arms about employers not providing free condoms to their male employees. For some reason, that's not considered a "men's health" issue. Yes, I can. Slippery slope is a logical fallacy. sigh We've had this argument before. To say that ANY slippery slope argument is automatically wrong is to say that every single event is entirely independent of every other event. That nothing ever leads to anything else. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:811547] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> I wouldn't just limit it to women-- men use contraception too you know!I do indeed!But for some reason, nobody seems up in arms about employers not providing free condoms to their male employees. For some reason, that's not considered a "men's health" issue.Yes, I can. Slippery slope is a logical fallacy.sigh We've had this argument before. To say that ANY slippery slope argument is automatically wrong is to say that every single event is entirely independent of every other event. That nothing ever leads to anything else. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Mr Lasastryke 02/19/12 11:06:00 AM #29:	To say that ANY slippery slope argument is automatically wrong is to say that every single event is entirely independent of every other event. That nothing ever leads to anything else. To my understanding slippery slope is misrepresenting the opponent's stance by exaggerating it to make it seem ridiculous. Case in point: LordoftheMorons said we should prevent unwanted pregnancies because it's beneficial to society. You replied: "well, surely you must also think killing old people is a great thing to do, because that'd also be beneficial to society!" This is a ridiculous argument. <cite>Mr Lasastryke posted [p:811548] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> To say that ANY slippery slope argument is automatically wrong is to say that every single event is entirely independent of every other event. That nothing ever leads to anything else.To my understanding slippery slope is misrepresenting the opponent's stance by exaggerating it to make it seem ridiculous. Case in point: LordoftheMorons said we should prevent unwanted pregnancies because it's beneficial to society. You replied: "well, surely you must also think killing old people is a great thing to do, because that'd also be beneficial to society!" This is a ridiculous argument. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 02/19/12 11:41:00 AM #30:	It's not at all ridiculous to suggest that putting "societal costs" above freedom will lead to ridiculous things. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:811549] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> It's not at all ridiculous to suggest that putting "societal costs" above freedom will lead to ridiculous things. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JeffreyRaze 02/19/12 11:56:00 AM #31:	I'm pretty sure the argument he was making is that if you're against everyone paying for individuals, it is cheaper (and thus closer to your ideal, albeit only kind of) to pay for birth control rather than to pay for unwanted pregnancies. -- http://img.imgcake.com/SantaRPG/MAIZEpngdu.png <cite>JeffreyRaze posted [p:811550] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> I'm pretty sure the argument he was making is that if you're against everyone paying for individuals, it is cheaper (and thus closer to your ideal, albeit only kind of) to pay for birth control rather than to pay for unwanted pregnancies. -- http://img.imgcake.com/SantaRPG/MAIZEpngdu.png </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LordoftheMorons 02/19/12 12:01:00 PM #32:	*SmartMuffin posted...* And I don't want to live in a society where we point a gun at a doctor's head and say "save this person's life or we throw you in jail." ...what? This is not at all the same thing as wanting your tax dollars to go towards helping people pay for life saving operations. *JeffreyRaze posted...* I'm pretty sure the argument he was making is that if you're against everyone paying for individuals, it is cheaper (and thus closer to your ideal, albeit only kind of) to pay for birth control rather than to pay for unwanted pregnancies. Yep, I wasn't saying that was the primary reason we should be providing contraception; I was pointing out that even if all you cared about was how much it cost you, providing birth control made sense. -- No I'm not a damn furry. Looney Tunes are different. - Guiga I wanted Sonic/Shadow romance at that time, not sex. - MWE <cite>LordoftheMorons posted [p:811551] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> SmartMuffin posted...And I don't want to live in a society where we point a gun at a doctor's head and say "save this person's life or we throw you in jail."...what? This is not at all the same thing as wanting your tax dollars to go towards helping people pay for life saving operations.JeffreyRaze posted...I'm pretty sure the argument he was making is that if you're against everyone paying for individuals, it is cheaper (and thus closer to your ideal, albeit only kind of) to pay for birth control rather than to pay for unwanted pregnancies.Yep, I wasn't saying that was the primary reason we should be providing contraception; I was pointing out that even if all you cared about was how much it cost you, providing birth control made sense. -- No I'm not a damn furry. Looney Tunes are different. - GuigaI wanted Sonic/Shadow romance at that time, not sex. - MWE </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
foolm0ron 02/19/12 12:08:00 PM #33:	From: JeffreyRaze \| #031 I'm pretty sure the argument he was making is that if you're against everyone paying for individuals, it is cheaper (and thus closer to your ideal, albeit only kind of) to pay for birth control rather than to pay for unwanted pregnancies. Even if we had the numbers, and we don't, that would only make sense if the only health care cost was buying birth control. Unfortunately, there are tons of way more costly forms of health care that you will pay for in a socialized system. But still, it seems like you're fundamentally missing the point. It's not about how much people are paying for other people. It's the fact that you have no choice. -- _foolmo_ 'he says listen to my story this maybe are last chance' - ertyu quoting Tidus <cite>foolm0ron posted [p:811552] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> From: JeffreyRaze \| #031I'm pretty sure the argument he was making is that if you're against everyone paying for individuals, it is cheaper (and thus closer to your ideal, albeit only kind of) to pay for birth control rather than to pay for unwanted pregnancies.Even if we had the numbers, and we don't, that would only make sense if the only health care cost was buying birth control.Unfortunately, there are tons of way more costly forms of health care that you will pay for in a socialized system.But still, it seems like you're fundamentally missing the point. It's not about how much people are paying for other people. It's the fact that you have no choice. -- _foolmo_'he says listen to my story this maybe are last chance' - ertyu quoting Tidus </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
OmarsComin 02/19/12 12:10:00 PM #34:	until it ever starts happening anywhere in the world with socialized medicine, can we drop the "let's pull the plug on old people" thing I think it's pretty clear that people who are in favor of of socialized medicine are in favor of it at any cost, and don't consider killing old people to save money a reasonable option. that's why they believe in universal healthcare in the first place. I can understand why this would be incomprehensible to some of the hard conservatives in the media who think poor people dying of starvation or disease is a great thing because it proves that the free market is working. as far as healthcare goes, I think almost everyone here is in agreement that Obama's healthcare thing is kind of awful and doesn't actually accomplish it's goals, while also limiting our freedom. I'm all for getting rid of it. Unfortunately, the politicians who are yelling "repeal Obamacare" are unlikely doing it because they want to fix it. They're doing it because a Democrat wrote it. They wouldn't replace it with a healthcare system that actually makes sense. Pretty sure we've been over this a million times before. You can't just say "slippery slope" and leave. You have to actually respond to the argument and prove how the two conditions are unrelated. we don't have to prove that they aren't related. you have to prove that they are! you have to give an argument why one would lead to the other. then everyone decides whether it's valid. slippery slope might not be a fallacy all the time, but in practice it mostly is. <cite>OmarsComin posted [p:811553] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> until it ever starts happening anywhere in the world with socialized medicine, can we drop the "let's pull the plug on old people" thingI think it's pretty clear that people who are in favor of of socialized medicine are in favor of it at any cost, and don't consider killing old people to save money a reasonable option. that's why they believe in universal healthcare in the first place. I can understand why this would be incomprehensible to some of the hard conservatives in the media who think poor people dying of starvation or disease is a great thing because it proves that the free market is working.as far as healthcare goes, I think almost everyone here is in agreement that Obama's healthcare thing is kind of awful and doesn't actually accomplish it's goals, while also limiting our freedom. I'm all for getting rid of it. Unfortunately, the politicians who are yelling "repeal Obamacare" are unlikely doing it because they want to fix it. They're doing it because a Democrat wrote it. They wouldn't replace it with a healthcare system that actually makes sense.Pretty sure we've been over this a million times before. You can't just say "slippery slope" and leave. You have to actually respond to the argument and prove how the two conditions are unrelated.we don't have to prove that they aren't related. you have to prove that they are! you have to give an argument why one would lead to the other. then everyone decides whether it's valid. slippery slope might not be a fallacy all the time, but in practice it mostly is. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LordoftheMorons 02/19/12 12:13:00 PM #35:	So basically when we say "slippery slope" it's because you've claimed induction while only showing the base case, and doing absolutely nothing to prove the inductive step. -- No I'm not a damn furry. Looney Tunes are different. - Guiga I wanted Sonic/Shadow romance at that time, not sex. - MWE <cite>LordoftheMorons posted [p:811554] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> So basically when we say "slippery slope" it's because you've claimed induction while only showing the base case, and doing absolutely nothing to prove the inductive step. -- No I'm not a damn furry. Looney Tunes are different. - GuigaI wanted Sonic/Shadow romance at that time, not sex. - MWE </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 02/19/12 12:18:00 PM #36:	I'm pretty sure the argument he was making is that if you're against everyone paying for individuals, it is cheaper (and thus closer to your ideal, albeit only kind of) to pay for birth control rather than to pay for unwanted pregnancies. This is a non-sequitir. If I'm against everyone paying for individuals, the "societal cost" is irrelevant. If everyone pays for themselves, unwanted pregnancies AND birth control cost ME the same amount, zero. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:811555] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> I'm pretty sure the argument he was making is that if you're against everyone paying for individuals, it is cheaper (and thus closer to your ideal, albeit only kind of) to pay for birth control rather than to pay for unwanted pregnancies.This is a non-sequitir. If I'm against everyone paying for individuals, the "societal cost" is irrelevant. If everyone pays for themselves, unwanted pregnancies AND birth control cost ME the same amount, zero. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JeffreyRaze 02/19/12 12:19:00 PM #37:	From: foolm0ron \| #033 Even if we had the numbers, and we don't, that would only make sense if the only health care cost was buying birth control. Unfortunately, there are tons of way more costly forms of health care that you will pay for in a socialized system. But still, it seems like you're fundamentally missing the point. It's not about how much people are paying for other people. It's the fact that you have no choice. That was only addressing a single scenario, not whether or not health care should be socialized as a whole. Though I will freely admit I am a supported of socialized health care. It's always so sad when someone on the board posts that they're worried they might be critically ill, but they can't afford to have it checked out. That's just... Ugh. -- MMBN style fighting game made by me in the link below! http://sandbox.yoyogames.com/games/184947-b8bn <cite>JeffreyRaze posted [p:811556] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> From: foolm0ron \| #033Even if we had the numbers, and we don't, that would only make sense if the only health care cost was buying birth control.Unfortunately, there are tons of way more costly forms of health care that you will pay for in a socialized system.But still, it seems like you're fundamentally missing the point. It's not about how much people are paying for other people. It's the fact that you have no choice.That was only addressing a single scenario, not whether or not health care should be socialized as a whole. Though I will freely admit I am a supported of socialized health care. It's always so sad when someone on the board posts that they're worried they might be critically ill, but they can't afford to have it checked out. That's just... Ugh. -- MMBN style fighting game made by me in the link below!http://sandbox.yoyogames.com/games/184947-b8bn </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Mr Lasastryke 02/19/12 12:19:00 PM #38:	It's not at all ridiculous to suggest that putting "societal costs" above freedom will lead to ridiculous things. You seriously think preventing unwanted pregnancies will lead to the killing of old people? You can't just say "X will lead to ridiculous situation Y" without providing any evidence. <cite>Mr Lasastryke posted [p:811557] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> It's not at all ridiculous to suggest that putting "societal costs" above freedom will lead to ridiculous things.You seriously think preventing unwanted pregnancies will lead to the killing of old people? You can't just say "X will lead to ridiculous situation Y" without providing any evidence. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 02/19/12 12:20:00 PM #39:	...what? This is not at all the same thing as wanting your tax dollars to go towards helping people pay for life saving operations. Sure it is. The reason health care can never be a right is because health care requires someone else's labor. It is impossible to have a right to someone else's life, liberty, or property. If a doctor doesn't want to treat someone, for whatever reason, whether it's religious objections or just plain "he's not willing to pay me enough money to do it" the government has no right to force them. So, socialized medicine can do one of two things. Either force the doctors to treat people anyway, against their will, or, allow the doctors to charge whatever they want for whatever procedure and force the taxpayers to foot the bill, against their will. The second option is imperfect, because there are some doctors who, for moral or religious reasons, will refuse to perform certain procedures regardless of price. What happens then? -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:811558] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> ...what? This is not at all the same thing as wanting your tax dollars to go towards helping people pay for life saving operations.Sure it is. The reason health care can never be a right is because health care requires someone else's labor. It is impossible to have a right to someone else's life, liberty, or property. If a doctor doesn't want to treat someone, for whatever reason, whether it's religious objections or just plain "he's not willing to pay me enough money to do it" the government has no right to force them. So, socialized medicine can do one of two things. Either force the doctors to treat people anyway, against their will, or, allow the doctors to charge whatever they want for whatever procedure and force the taxpayers to foot the bill, against their will. The second option is imperfect, because there are some doctors who, for moral or religious reasons, will refuse to perform certain procedures regardless of price. What happens then? -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
foolm0ron 02/19/12 12:20:00 PM #40:	From: JeffreyRaze \| #037 That was only addressing a single scenario, not whether or not health care should be socialized as a whole. That's what I'm saying. You want to JUST socialize birth control and nothing else? It doesn't work like that, so what's the point of even thinking about it? -- _foolmo_ 'and out of the blue and completely unprovoked came foolmo and his insult' - Anagram <cite>foolm0ron posted [p:811559] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> From: JeffreyRaze \| #037That was only addressing a single scenario, not whether or not health care should be socialized as a whole.That's what I'm saying. You want to JUST socialize birth control and nothing else? It doesn't work like that, so what's the point of even thinking about it? -- _foolmo_'and out of the blue and completely unprovoked came foolmo and his insult' - Anagram </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 02/19/12 12:21:00 PM #41:	It's always so sad when someone on the board posts that they're worried they might be critically ill, but they can't afford to have it checked out. That's just... Ugh. If you feel so bad about it, maybe you should send them a check. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:811560] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> It's always so sad when someone on the board posts that they're worried they might be critically ill, but they can't afford to have it checked out. That's just... Ugh.If you feel so bad about it, maybe you should send them a check. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
red sox 777 02/19/12 12:22:00 PM #42:	I think it's pretty clear that people who are in favor of of socialized medicine are in favor of it at any cost Well that's stupid. Healthcare is not something like freedom of speech where we can get it just by the government doing nothing. Healthcare costs resources, and we have a finite amount of resources. It is literally impossible to get everyone awesome healthcare. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link. <cite>red sox 777 posted [p:811561] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> I think it's pretty clear that people who are in favor of of socialized medicine are in favor of it at any costWell that's stupid. Healthcare is not something like freedom of speech where we can get it just by the government doing nothing. Healthcare costs resources, and we have a finite amount of resources. It is literally impossible to get everyone awesome healthcare. -- Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pickyour 7 time champion, Link. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
foolm0ron 02/19/12 12:23:00 PM #43:	From: JeffreyRaze \| #037 It's always so sad when someone on the board posts that they're worried they might be critically ill, but they can't afford to have it checked out. That's just... Ugh. Like I said, we both want the same thing. Socialized healthcare will not help these people. -- _foolmo_ 'I love you so much' - SineNomine <cite>foolm0ron posted [p:811562] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> From: JeffreyRaze \| #037It's always so sad when someone on the board posts that they're worried they might be critically ill, but they can't afford to have it checked out. That's just... Ugh.Like I said, we both want the same thing. Socialized healthcare will not help these people. -- _foolmo_'I love you so much' - SineNomine </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JeffreyRaze 02/19/12 12:23:00 PM #44:	I didn't make any position there, I was just trying to clarify someone's statement. I will frequently do that in these sort of topics. I greatly dislike it when many, many posts are wasted because someone doesn't get what someone else is saying. I will then try to clarify so the situation doesn't continue. These clarifications in no way constitute a statement from myself. -- MMBN style fighting game made by me in the link below! http://sandbox.yoyogames.com/games/184947-b8bn <cite>JeffreyRaze posted [p:811563] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> I didn't make any position there, I was just trying to clarify someone's statement. I will frequently do that in these sort of topics. I greatly dislike it when many, many posts are wasted because someone doesn't get what someone else is saying. I will then try to clarify so the situation doesn't continue. These clarifications in no way constitute a statement from myself. -- MMBN style fighting game made by me in the link below!http://sandbox.yoyogames.com/games/184947-b8bn </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 02/19/12 12:23:00 PM #45:	You seriously think preventing unwanted pregnancies will lead to the killing of old people? No. I think putting "societal costs" over "individual freedom" will lead to the killing of old people. Feel free to research the quality of care given to those with incurable diseases, the disabled, or the mentally ill received in collectivist totalitarian regimes. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:811564] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> You seriously think preventing unwanted pregnancies will lead to the killing of old people?No. I think putting "societal costs" over "individual freedom" will lead to the killing of old people. Feel free to research the quality of care given to those with incurable diseases, the disabled, or the mentally ill received in collectivist totalitarian regimes. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 02/19/12 12:25:00 PM #46:	It is literally impossible to get everyone awesome healthcare. An important reality that leftists will absolutely never admit. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:811565] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> It is literally impossible to get everyone awesome healthcare.An important reality that leftists will absolutely never admit. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
JeffreyRaze 02/19/12 12:25:00 PM #47:	From: SmartMuffin \| #041 It's always so sad when someone on the board posts that they're worried they might be critically ill, but they can't afford to have it checked out. That's just... Ugh. If you feel so bad about it, maybe you should send them a check. That would take time, and in that time the damage would already have been done. That's why I don't see the tort system (or boycotting) as an ideal way of preventing people from doing unscrupulous things. Prevention is worth oh so much more than a cure. -- http://img.imgcake.com/SantaRPG/MAIZEpngdu.png <cite>JeffreyRaze posted [p:811566] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> From: SmartMuffin \| #041It's always so sad when someone on the board posts that they're worried they might be critically ill, but they can't afford to have it checked out. That's just... Ugh.If you feel so bad about it, maybe you should send them a check.That would take time, and in that time the damage would already have been done. That's why I don't see the tort system (or boycotting) as an ideal way of preventing people from doing unscrupulous things. Prevention is worth oh so much more than a cure. -- http://img.imgcake.com/SantaRPG/MAIZEpngdu.png </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
foolm0ron 02/19/12 12:25:00 PM #48:	From: JeffreyRaze \| #044 I will frequently do that in these sort of topics. I greatly dislike it when many, many posts are wasted because someone doesn't get what someone else is saying. I will then try to clarify so the situation doesn't continue. These clarifications in no way constitute a statement from myself. Yeah, I get you, I do that as well. You must also greatly dislike it when many posts are wasted talking about something pointless like paying for birth control vs. paying for unwanted pregnancies. -- _foolmo_ 'and out of the blue and completely unprovoked came foolmo and his insult' - Anagram <cite>foolm0ron posted [p:811567] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> From: JeffreyRaze \| #044I will frequently do that in these sort of topics. I greatly dislike it when many, many posts are wasted because someone doesn't get what someone else is saying. I will then try to clarify so the situation doesn't continue. These clarifications in no way constitute a statement from myself.Yeah, I get you, I do that as well.You must also greatly dislike it when many posts are wasted talking about something pointless like paying for birth control vs. paying for unwanted pregnancies. -- _foolmo_'and out of the blue and completely unprovoked came foolmo and his insult' - Anagram </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SmartMuffin 02/19/12 12:26:00 PM #49:	That would take time, and in that time the damage would already have been done Not really. There are plenty of ways to send money very quickly. The point is, you see a sick person and you feel bad. But not bad enough to actually help them yourself. Just bad enough to want to the government point a gun at your rich neighbor and make them help the sick person. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpg http://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ <cite>SmartMuffin posted [p:811568] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> That would take time, and in that time the damage would already have been doneNot really. There are plenty of ways to send money very quickly. The point is, you see a sick person and you feel bad. But not bad enough to actually help them yourself. Just bad enough to want to the government point a gun at your rich neighbor and make them help the sick person. -- SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized - http://img.imgcake.com/smartmuffin/barkleyjpgde.jpghttp://dudewheresmyfreedom.com/ </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LordoftheMorons 02/19/12 12:28:00 PM #50:	*SmartMuffin posted...* The second option is imperfect, because there are some doctors who, for moral or religious reasons, will refuse to perform certain procedures regardless of price. What happens then? Because it's imperfect we shouldn't bother trying? Also, I'd wager in the overwhelming majority of scenarios you can find a doctor willing to perform a particular life saving procedure, assuming it's not experimental; isn't that what would happen in your idealized "free market" scenario? The point isn't to make a particular doctor perform a particular surgery, it's to make sure that a particular patient will obtain that surgery, even if it requires tax payers to foot the bill. *SmartMuffin posted...* It's always so sad when someone on the board posts that they're worried they might be critically ill, but they can't afford to have it checked out. That's just... Ugh. If you feel so bad about it, maybe you should send them a check. An individual can't afford to pay for every single person's medical treatment. -- No I'm not a damn furry. Looney Tunes are different. - Guiga I wanted Sonic/Shadow romance at that time, not sex. - MWE <cite>LordoftheMorons posted [p:811569] in What if Ju... [t:61996723]...</cite> <quote> SmartMuffin posted...The second option is imperfect, because there are some doctors who, for moral or religious reasons, will refuse to perform certain procedures regardless of price. What happens then?Because it's imperfect we shouldn't bother trying? Also, I'd wager in the overwhelming majority of scenarios you can find a doctor willing to perform a particular life saving procedure, assuming it's not experimental; isn't that what would happen in your idealized "free market" scenario? The point isn't to make a particular doctor perform a particular surgery, it's to make sure that a particular patient will obtain that surgery, even if it requires tax payers to foot the bill.SmartMuffin posted...It's always so sad when someone on the board posts that they're worried they might be critically ill, but they can't afford to have it checked out. That's just... Ugh.If you feel so bad about it, maybe you should send them a check.An individual can't afford to pay for every single person's medical treatment. -- No I'm not a damn furry. Looney Tunes are different. - GuigaI wanted Sonic/Shadow romance at that time, not sex. - MWE </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Board 8 > What if Judge Napolitano was awesome? (Official Ron Paul 2012 topic) (+) Yeah! (+)

Board 8 > What if Judge Napolitano was awesome? (Official Ron Paul 2012 topic)