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Trelawney is an alright character, amusing. But not a great teacher, and not really all that awesome. McGonagall on the other hand is amusing (McGonagall vs Umbridge is amazing) a great teacher (The best at hogwarts during Harry's time) and awesome (she duels with Voldemort alongside Slughorn and Flitwick, and she is an animagus)
I'd say McGonagall is in my top 5. Trelawney would be lucky to be Top 20.
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See You In Another Life, Brother. New York Giants - The Patriot Slayers
If there's one thing I find curious about Board 8's taste it's how much B8 seems to value competence. I just care about which character is better-written.
And frankly, Trelawney is better-written than McGonnigal. Trelawney steals the show in nearly every scene she's in--both when she is hilariously bad but also when she's going into her hardcore trances. "IT WILL HAPPEN TONIGHT".
She's not a static character--her behavior changes significantly as the series goes on, from being extremely self -assured at first, to feeling affronted and insulted and ruffled by Umbridge, right down to becoming an alcoholic with cheap cooking sherry.
We have a very clear sense of her backstory, what motivates her, why she does the things she does, why people around her behave the way they do (like not firing her--because Dumbledore is trying to keep her safe).
I just don't get that same sense with McGonnigal; I've mentioned before that people who were watching the foreshadowing after the sixth book were largely suspicious that McGonnigal could be a death eater (conveniently never actually fights with the OoTP, attended school at the same time as Voldemort, Harry and Dumbledore share no secrets with her). Now this turns out not to be the case, and that's fine, but it's not like we find out WHY McGonnigal is loyal or WHY Harry and Dumbledore don't share their secrets with her. Or why McGonnigal doesn't participate in the 7 Harrys escape moment with the rest of the Order--surely she has more reason to care about the kid than, say, Kingsley or Moody, who have barely spoken with him.
It just feels like Rowling doesn't care about giving McGonnigal a story arc, or even consistent behavior, but did give that love to Trelawney.
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Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision
I just don't get that same sense with McGonnigal; I've mentioned before that people who were watching the foreshadowing after the sixth book were largely suspicious that McGonnigal could be a death eater (conveniently never actually fights with the OoTP, attended school at the same time as Voldemort, Harry and Dumbledore share no secrets with her). Now this turns out not to be the case, and that's fine, but it's not like we find out WHY McGonnigal is loyal or WHY Harry and Dumbledore don't share their secrets with her. Or why McGonnigal doesn't participate in the 7 Harrys escape moment with the rest of the Order--surely she has more reason to care about the kid than, say, Kingsley or Moody, who have barely spoken with him.
I don't see any foreshadowing of McGonagall being a Death Eater. She DOES fight with the Order of the Phoenix. She takes part in the battle of the Astronomy Tower, and guess what -- she can't get through! And it's explained that you have to have a Dark Mark to get through. Now if McGonagall were a death eater, she'd easily be able to pass. It's not like she could participate in the battle at the ministry -- seeing as she took a bunch of stunners to the chest.
She didn't attend the school at the same time as Voldemort. Voldemort graduated two years before she started to Hogwarts.
Dumbledore doesn't share secrets with ANYONE. He doesn't even Tell Harry 90% of his plans, expecting him to figure it out. However, she WAS one of the people guarding the Philosophers Stone.
Dumbledore tests harry in the first year. He sees that he 'does the thing the proper way' which probably gives him the brilliant idea of keeping so much information from even harry, that he knows Voldemort couldn't get it out of anyone no matter how much he tried (It'd be like if they had a secret keeper, who didn't know they were a secret keeper)
McGonagall is loyal because she trusts and respects Dumbledore. Which is the same reason as most other people, except for those who will remain nameless that did it because of Unrequited Love.
And again, Dumbledore doesn't share his secrets with most people. He keeps things from Harry that'd be useful. LIke I don't know... 'Here Harry, take this Basilisk fang. You might find it useful. IT DESTROYS HORCUXES" or I don't know "I destroyed the ring with the sword of Gryffindor, that tidbit might come in handy at some point!" Hell, the only reason I'd say snape can even give any info to Voldemort, is because Dumbledore gives it to him. If Dumbledore won't even tell Harry, it stands to reason he wont' tell ANYONE unless he wants Voldemort to hear it, in which case he'll tell Snape.
The 7 Harry's was less about the people who care about Harry (Molly doesn't participate for example), and more about getting Harry to the Burrow.
To put it simply -- EVERYONE put their faith in Dumbledore. All of their eggs were in Dumbledores Basket. And Dumbledore was pretty much relying on Harry. Since Dumbledore believed Harry was crucial in defeating Voldemort, the others believed him because they believed Dumbledore.
To quote Lupin "Harry is the best hope we have. Trust him."
To quote Shacklebolt "You're more important right now"
Yes -- Harry is more important than the Muggle Prime Minister. More important than the Wizard Prime Minister. Even Voldemort knows it -- which is why Harry is undesirable number one. Because Harry is the symbol of everything for the resistance.
And McGonagall is getting up there in age, and had Hogwarts duties. It was probably expected around that time for her to become the next Headmistress of Hogwarts.
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See You In Another Life, Brother. New York Giants - The Patriot Slayers
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'Well said, magic japanese catmonster created by a genetic experiment with powers that far exceed those of his fellow Pokemon. Well said.' - Jon Stewart
I will pretty much take a character that is both competent and entertaining over a trainwreck of a character who's entertaining in that way any day, UNLESS said trainwreck is extremely compelling. I don't find Trelawney very compelling at all.
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Cloud and Squall posted... She takes part in the battle of the Astronomy Tower, and guess what -- she can't get through! And it's explained that you have to have a Dark Mark to get through. Now if McGonagall were a death eater, she'd easily be able to pass.
Yeah, but at the time we were theorizing that there really should be a death eater who doesn't have a dark mark if they were deep undercover. Otherwise you just figure out who's loyal by telling them to show you their arm.
It's not like she could participate in the battle at the ministry -- seeing as she took a bunch of stunners to the chest.
True, but it was part of a series of convenient circumstances that seemed to surround every fight.
She didn't attend the school at the same time as Voldemort. Voldemort graduated two years before she started to Hogwarts.
Before the release of book 7 I don't think we had precise birthdays for both characters. We knew that they were approximately the same age.
He doesn't even Tell Harry 90% of his plans, expecting him to figure it out.
Voldemort has a connection directly into Harry's mind. This makes sense. Similarly, not telling Snape everything makes sense--Snape spends a lot of time in Voldemort's pocket.
And yet he shares some things with Harry and Snape, and absolutely nothing at all with McGonnigal.
However, she WAS one of the people guarding the Philosophers Stone.
True, but Dumbledore chooses to send Snape after Quirrel and not McGonnigal.
If Dumbledore won't even tell Harry, it stands to reason he wont' tell ANYONE unless he wants Voldemort to hear it, in which case he'll tell Snape.
Dumbledore actually tells plenty to Snape that he doesn't want revealed to Voldemort. Like Harry being an unintentional horcrux--that might have been useful information to Voldy.
The 7 Harry's was less about the people who care about Harry (Molly doesn't participate for example), and more about getting Harry to the Burrow.
Molly can't participate, because someone needs to be stationed at the Burrow. (Also, Molly's not really a fighter. The final scene with her and Bellatrix is so surprising partially because we expect her to act like a stay-at-home mom who never gets out.)
To put it simply -- EVERYONE put their faith in Dumbledore. [...] To quote Lupin "Harry is the best hope we have. Trust him." To quote Shacklebolt "You're more important right now" [...] And McGonagall is getting up there in age, and had Hogwarts duties. It was probably expected around that time for her to become the next Headmistress of Hogwarts.
Good point about people putting their faith in Dumbledore and thus making Harry their top priority...so why doesn't McGonnigal do the same? If Kingsley is willing to abandon the Prime Minister, why isn't McGonnigal willing to...leave the school when there aren't even any students at the school?
(And seriously, McGonnigal is like...63 if we take her quoted birthday seriously. Wizards and Witches live to be 150--Dumbledore was about 120 when he died. 63 is like...the equivalent of 40 to Wizards and Witches. Actually I'm starting to think her supposed birthday is just another case of Rowling not being very good at math. She's described as elderly in book 1, when she would have been...56. That...seems weird to me. Slughorn complaining about being old when he's like...100 is perfectly logical. Everyone talking about the "advanced age" of someone in their 50s is just weird).
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Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision
Yeah, but at the time we were theorizing that there really should be a death eater who doesn't have a dark mark if they were deep undercover. Otherwise you just figure out who's loyal by telling them to show you their arm.
That's true, but that's kind of overestimating Voldemort (and the ministry for that matter. Sirius didn't have a Dark Mark, and off to Azkaban he went. I'm guessing it's not common knowledge or something)
True, but it was part of a series of convenient circumstances that seemed to surround every fight.
Not very convenient for her to get stunned by a bunch of Aurors.
Before the release of book 7 I don't think we had precise birthdays for both characters. We knew that they were approximately the same age.
True, but I don't think there are any really precise birthdays. She probably doesn't see it as important to stick to a timeline (which doesn't even require math). She didn't seem to know much about the Chamber of Secrets being opened the first time though.
Voldemort has a connection directly into Harry's mind. This makes sense. Similarly, not telling Snape everything makes sense--Snape spends a lot of time in Voldemort's pocket.
Except, Voldemort is afraid of that connection by the time Harry starts learning about Horcuxes. And -- there it is. HARRY LEARNS ABOUT HORCRUXES. Voldemort would easily know that if Harry knows about them, that he'd be trying to destroy them. You might as well give him the necessary information. Or at least leave a basilisk fang in the will. "For defeating the monster, a keepsake"
And yet he shares some things with Harry and Snape, and absolutely nothing at all with McGonnigal.
He only shares what he has to with anyone. He doesn't really tell anyone else in the order anything regarding Harry's mission.
True, but Dumbledore chooses to send Snape after Quirrel and not McGonnigal.
To keep an eye on him, yes. But that makes sense, seeing as Snape is a known former Voldemort supporter.
Dumbledore actually tells plenty to Snape that he doesn't want revealed to Voldemort. Like Harry being an unintentional horcrux--that might have been useful information to Voldy.
Except he doesn't tell Snape that he was an unintentional Horcurx. He just tells Snape Harry needs to die. He doesn't tell Snape anything about Horcruxes. And he only gives Snape that information, because it's information Harry has to have. And it's information he needs to get after Hunting Horcruxes. Because that'd be a real downer for anyone's adventure. "I have to die at the end of all of this."
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See You In Another Life, Brother. New York Giants - The Patriot Slayers
Molly can't participate, because someone needs to be stationed at the Burrow. (Also, Molly's not really a fighter. The final scene with her and Bellatrix is so surprising partially because we expect her to act like a stay-at-home mom who never gets out.)
And someone probably needs to be stationed at Hogwarts.
Good point about people putting their faith in Dumbledore and thus making Harry their top priority...so why doesn't McGonnigal do the same? If Kingsley is willing to abandon the Prime Minister, why isn't McGonnigal willing to...leave the school when there aren't even any students at the school?
Maybe she was willing to, but they only needed 7 protectors. They probably couldn't get an 8th Harry. I also partly believe that the MAGIC NUMBER 7 was -- wow Fridge Brilliance. Voldemort wants to split himself into 7 parts, Harry effectively has 6 of him around during the escape. WOW. -- important. The protectors you have:
Moody - Ex Auror, paranoid as all get out, and the one Voldemort will know to come after first. Kingsley - Auror. Highly skilled. Tonks - Auror. Highly skilled. Great at flying. Lupin - Former Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher. Arthur - Father of THREE of the Harry's. Probably wanted to protect at least one of his sons. Bill -- Husband to one of the Harry's. Probably wanted involved in some way too.
the only one I could see her replacing is -- Hagrid. And since the plan was not to put Harry on a broom, I'd say that he probably knew the most about Sirius's motorbike. Not to mention Hagrid was probably the least skilled, and thus the least likely for Voldemort to go after until harry used his Trademark* spell.
At the very least, I'd say it's important for them to have at least one Order member at Hogwarts over the year. And... if she died, there'd be no members of the order at the school.
Her age is... difficult to know what rowling was thinking in regards to that. For the most part, she never really gives us much hints to when any of the characters attended Hogwarts, though we're getting more information through pottermore. Mcgonogall really shouldn't have retired by the time Albus Potter started to Hogwarts, but that's another issue, and I don't think it's even said in the books.
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See You In Another Life, Brother. New York Giants - The Patriot Slayers
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When you've got a pretty-boy monkey on your back constantly calling you a puppet, you hardly want to seem like you're happy to be used. - DSakaCharanJ
Cloud and Squall posted... That's true, but that's kind of overestimating Voldemort (and the ministry for that matter. Sirius didn't have a Dark Mark, and off to Azkaban he went. I'm guessing it's not common knowledge or something)
The ministry are idiots--Sirius went to Azkaban without a trial, for instance. (And furthermore, wouldn't it sew more discord if you were suspicious of everyone, even people who didn't have dark marks? It'd fit Voldemort "his gift for sewing discord is very great").
Or at least leave a basilisk fang in the will. "For defeating the monster, a keepsake"
Now that I think about it, that's actually not possible--Dumbledore is not a Parselmouth--he can't open the chamber.
True, but Dumbledore chooses to send Snape after Quirrell and not McGonnigal.
To keep an eye on him, yes. But that makes sense, seeing as Snape is a known former Voldemort supporter.
I...don't follow the logic; why would being a former death eater make Snape a better candidate to tail Quirrell? I read it more as "Dumbledore trusts Snape more completely due to love."
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Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision
The ministry are idiots--Sirius went to Azkaban without a trial, for instance. (And furthermore, wouldn't it sew more discord if you were suspicious of everyone, even people who didn't have dark marks? It'd fit Voldemort "his gift for sewing discord is very great").
Yes, they are idiots. But Voldemort is too.
Now that I think about it, that's actually not possible--Dumbledore is not a Parselmouth--he can't open the chamber.
Actually, Dumbledore does speak Pareltonuge. At least enough. More than Ron, who also gets into the chamber of secrets pretty easily. He demonstrates the ability in the memory with Bob Ogden.
I...don't follow the logic; why would being a former death eater make Snape a better candidate to tail Quirrell? I read it more as "Dumbledore trusts Snape more completely due to love."
He knows how Dark Wizards think. And hell who knows, it might've been a test for Snape. I mean, Dumbledore could've handled it all himself. He's capable of becoming invisible without a cloak, and let's face it... he'd really be the best choice to keep an eye on him. Dumbledore does love his tests, what with testing Harry with it and all. Instead of directly dealing with Quirell, he left it to Snape and Harry.
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See You In Another Life, Brother. New York Giants - The Patriot Slayers
Cloud and Squall posted... Actually, Dumbledore does speak Pareltonuge. At least enough. More than Ron, who also gets into the chamber of secrets pretty easily. He demonstrates the ability in the memory with Bob Ogden.
For starters, Ron is a mimic. Actually, it's a bit of a Weasly thing--Ginny flawlessly mimics Umbridge's "Hem hem".
As for Dumbledore, I remember nothing in that chapter that demonstrates he understands Parseltongue. His lines are...
"You understand him, I'm sure, Harry?"
To me, this line always hinted that Dumbledore did NOT understand them, unlike Harry.
"Very good." (Telling Harry that yes: he's speaking parseltongue)
"I think that will do, Harry" (end of scene)
And then they discuss the scene in general terms, basically just Dumbledore telling Harry who the people were in the scene, not going into any detail until....
"Yes, that was Tom Riddle senior, the handsome Muggle who used to go riding past the Gaunt cottage and for whom Merope Gaunt cherished a secret, burning passion."
While the vast majority of the conversation was held in English, the fact that she had a crush on him was conducted in parseltongue. So...this is the one tidbit where it seems like Dumbledore understood the conversation.
Then again, the fact that she eventually got married to Tom Riddle would be a matter of public record; most likely Dumbledore could deduce a crush. And a good deal could be determined from body language--without being able to understand Parseltongue, you'd be able to tell that Morphin accused Merope of something, Merope goes white, Morphin continues, Merope tries to shake her head to tell him not to reveal anything, Marvolo gets angry, Merope shakes her head frantically, Marvolo strangles Merope. And all this is right after Tom Riddle calls a girl "darling" as he's passing.
So...I can maybe see this as evidence that Dumbledore knows Parseltongue, but there are so many other hints that it's also plausible that he doesn't.
"I think you are forgetting that Merope was a witch. I do not believe that her magical powers appeared to their best advantage when she was being terrorized by her father. Once Marvolo and Morfin were safely in Azkaban, once she was alone and free for the first time in her life, then, I am sure, she was able to give full rein to her abilities and to plot her escape from the desperate life she had for eighteen years."
And given that Marvolo called Merope a squib in English (not parseltongue) when he was tormenting her in front of Bob Ogden, I don't see anything here that Dumbledore would have needed parseltongue to deduce.
And then Dumbledore moves on to events that happened months or years later--not part of the memory at all.
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Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision
Chapter 17: A Sluggish Memory points to this however:
That muggle what my sister took a fancy to, that Muggle what lives in the big house over the way.' said Morfin, and he spat unexpectedly upon the floor between them.
Later..
"Voldemort Stupefied his uncle, took his wand, and proceeded across the valley to 'the big house over the way'"
Looks to me as if he's repeating what Morfin said in parseltongue verbatim. Which says to me that he understands it (which isn't strange at all, since he also speaks Mermish.
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See You In Another Life, Brother. New York Giants - The Patriot Slayers