ZaziGuado posted... I have the DVD, and there is commentary provided for the episode. I kind of want to watch it, but I'm not sure if anything for next season will be spoiled at all.
NO!!!!
I'm not 100% sure if there is spoilers but it is not worth the risk. Too much foreshadowing going on in that episode.
Tehmoosey1 posted... I'm pretty sure there was metaphorical significance to everything in that episode.
Except for the man with the cheese. He was just weird.
Joss has stated that the cheese man was there because everyone has random stuff in their dreams. Also that if you watch that episode on Morphene it is amazing.
And yeah Zazi, now you can understand what I meant about how crazy it was being a Buffy fan online after season 4. Speculation everywhere and we still managed to miss some of the foreshadowing.
-- (Maniac64 at work) All the proteins, vitamins, and carbs of your grandma's best turkey dinner, plus 15% alcohol.
Maniac Fun Fact: There are at least a dozen events foreshadowed in Restless.
One of them is a reference to 7-3-0 first mentioned in Buffy's dream with Faith in the Season 3 finale and may be the craziest piece of foreshadowing in the history of television.
This is my favorite non-spoiler Restless thing. "The Scooby Gang's dreams are shown in the same order that they took part in the spell in "Primeval". Each is killed by the First Slayer in a manner reflecting their contribution to the spell (Willow - spirit, Xander - heart, Giles - mind, Buffy - hand/strength)."
Just gives you an idea about how much thought was put into this episode.
-- (Maniac64 at work) All the proteins, vitamins, and carbs of your grandma's best turkey dinner, plus 15% alcohol.
I don't have faith in myself to be able to notice that these were foreshadowed when they actually happen. Is that normal? Will it be hinted that they were foreshadowed at all, or is Restless basically a fan service kind of episode to watch again after the entire series is over?
ZaziGuado posted... I don't have faith in myself to be able to notice that these were foreshadowed when they actually happen. Is that normal? Will it be hinted that they were foreshadowed at all, or is Restless basically a fan service kind of episode to watch again after the entire series is over?
I think Restless was made to 1. let Joss have fun with foreshadowing and layers and 2. to drive the fans absolutely nuts over the off-season (which it did).
When you are a bubble show having your fans going crazy is a good thing.
And some of them you might notice, others I will try to point out afterwards.
Speaking of I almost forgot another Maniac Fun Fact: Orginally Xander was going to be the bisexual/gay character but the actor wasn't comfortable with that so they switched it to Willow.
-- (Maniac64 at work) All the proteins, vitamins, and carbs of your grandma's best turkey dinner, plus 15% alcohol.
Where did you read that it was the actor not being comfortable with it? I always read that Joss has always wanted one of the two to end up being bi/gay but didn't make the decision until later. Maybe that was part of the decision, but I never saw anything about it.
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I'm "kind of a big deal". http://img.imgcake.com/cyclo/Cyclopngegpngre.png
It came up when my sister was working on her thesis paper in college.
Oh hey I guess I can reveal what that paper was as well now. It was titled something like "Homosexuality in Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and analyzed how the issue was handled and compared it to other media at the time.
-- (Maniac64 at work) All the proteins, vitamins, and carbs of your grandma's best turkey dinner, plus 15% alcohol.
If you mean the one in This Year's Girl then yes, yes it was.
Though I think all of its foreshadowing is referenced again in Restless. In fact that dream is specifically referred to when Buffy comments on how she and Faith just made the bed.
-- (Maniac64 at work) All the proteins, vitamins, and carbs of your grandma's best turkey dinner, plus 15% alcohol.
We are just giving him the full Buffy fan experience!
-Watch Primeval, wonder what the heck the finale is -Watch Restless, still wonder what the heck it is -spend time between finale and start of Season 5 thinking about foreshadowing and possible meanings and what the heck the cheeseman represents (alright, I kind of spoiled that last part)
It's just like watching it when it aired! Only way more condensed.
-- (Maniac64 at work) All the proteins, vitamins, and carbs of your grandma's best turkey dinner, plus 15% alcohol.
Probably my favorite scene: Spike: [In Xander's dream] Giles here is gonna teach me to be a Watcher. Says I got the stuff. Rupert Giles: Spike's like a son to me. Xander Harris: That's good. I was into that for a while, but... I got other stuff goin' on. You gotta have something. Gotta be with movin' forward. Buffy Summers: Like a shark. Xander Harris: Like a shark with feet and... much less fins. Spike: And on land. Rupert Giles: Very good.
-- (Maniac64 at work) All the proteins, vitamins, and carbs of your grandma's best turkey dinner, plus 15% alcohol.
This episode fell flat for me. I didn't really sympathize with the kids because we got little backstory and the main kid wasn't all that likable. Really, not a lot actually happened in this episode. Angel helped that one guy, which was cool that it went off without a hitch, and then he just watched those kids do all that other stuff, and then he talked to the one guy who wasn't given him anything, and then episode over. Wesley and Cordelia again took a backseat and were merely comedic relief. A forgettable episode.
Up next: Angel 21
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snowpork I wanna be a SuperNiceDog when I grow up!
In which a blind girl is a homicidal maniac and Lindsey turns face (maybe?).
A better episode than the one before it with a lot more interesting pieces, but still a tad bit flat. Lindsey wanting out was interesting, but Holland or whatever the head guy's name seeming to know everything was a little weird. Lindsey is now an actually interesting character, which is the key part. I'll be excited to know his fate at the end of the finale.
One minor detail that kind of bugged me was the black kid from War Zone being so willing to help Angel. They just kind of seemed to have a "you keep your distance I'll keep mine" kind of relationship, and now they are already helping each other out.
Apparently everything that happened this episode was according to some prophecy. Yay bigger things, or something. I don't know.
As you can tell, I don't really know what to make out of a lot of stuff. Hopefully I'll have more to say after the upcoming finale.
In which Angel the prophecy says Angel can become human again and Darla returns.
So the big reveal is that Darla, the person who birthed Angelus, was specifically risen for some reason, I guess according to prophecy. I guess I should say this right now: prophecy plots have never been too interesting to me. They are way too plot convenient. So when Darla is back, which is certainly interesting, it just seems more random than "oh snap!" Still, this should provide for a very interesting Season 2 premiere.
Seeing the Oracles get toasted was saddening to me. I was hoping for more involvement from them throughout the series. Ahh well. Surely some other connection to the PTB will come to the surface.
Wolfram & Hart still being around is nice. It'll be good to see them get more run, though I can't expect them to be around much longer. I wouldn't be surprised if they are vanquish mid-Season 2 to give rise to a new Big Bad.
The reveal that Angel could become human again was a tender moment in the way only the character of Angel could provide. A slight smile followed by a stoic "that would be nice" was a perfect way to convey his excitement of sorts. It makes me really hope that Wesley and Cordelia stick around to see it happen, but that would require them staying on the show four more seasons, and I'm not sure if I see that happening, at least not both of them.
I wish I could say more about this episode, and express joy and excitement. I did enjoy it, but it just seemed like more setup. After seeing Restless, I didn't really want to see another finale designed to set up the next season (whatever you may say about Whedon being fine with Restless being a series finale).
So, I've supported the viewing order thing up till now, but from my experience of my watchthrough I'd suggest you not worry about it any more. I'd suggest at least staying within the same season of eachother (like not starting Buffy 6 until you finish Angel 2), but if you are getting into a particular shows plot, you may as well just go with whatever you are feeling like watching rather than forcing yourself to alternate.
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The batman villians all seem to be one big joke that batman refuses to laugh at - SantaRPG
After seeing Restless, I didn't really want to see another finale designed to set up the next season (whatever you may say about Whedon being fine with Restless being a series finale).
Understandable.
-- (Maniac64 at work) All the proteins, vitamins, and carbs of your grandma's best turkey dinner, plus 15% alcohol.
Ok, I'll say this... Not liking cliffhanger at the end of seasons? Well, sucks for you, cause every season finale will be a cliff hanger more or less... It's just how it is with Angel... :\
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Nominate B.B. Hood for CB IX http://miniurl.org/ntI
Normally I'd sum up my thoughts about the seasons here, but I'm really lacking in the will to write much right now. I'll attempt to do this later in the evening.
I wonder how you'll think of Season 4. Overall, I thought it was the weakest season after season 1, even though it has a noticeable step up in production values over the first three seasons.
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The batman villians all seem to be one big joke that batman refuses to laugh at - SantaRPG
Alright, I really need to get back into this. What's preventing me from going on is I don't know how to wrap up Season 4 of Buffy and Season 1 of Angel. I'll try now, but I won't guarantee quality.
Buffy - Season 4
Perhaps the easiest place to start would be placing Season 4 into the overall rankings.
Season 2 > Season 4 > Season 3 > Season 1
That probably is a little deceptive. Season 2 is still much better than the other seasons, and not too much separates 4 from 3. Season 4 continues giving the series more consistency from episode to episode, but the highs weren't as high as Season 2, and possibly even Season 3. The problem with Season 4 is that the season was so focused. There was little for Giles, Xander, Anya, Spike, and to an extent Willow to do. The season was BuffyBuffyBuffy, and while her name is in the title, I've grown to love the other characters too, and forgive me if I tire of Buffy's love life at times. This season more than ever, Buffy was independent of her friends, and it hurt the season overall, I think.
There were some goods, though. I really appreciate all the setup that was done. Restless introduced a whole bunch of stuff that I can't even begin to comprehend, nor do I really even remember much of the episode besides the "WTF" feeling going through my head the entire time. Then there are Riley and Tara, who have fallen in with the gang. Riley's story seems to be finished, so he will probably go away when his and Buffy's relationship does, but Tara has all sorts of intrigue surrounding her. Her relationship is odd (though again, that may just be a case of limitations put on by the network) with the way she seemingly has Willow wrapped around her finger, and there was that deal with her intentionally screwing up the spell. This chick is bad news. I don't like her, but I expect to see her in the opening credits come the start of Season 5.
Spike was also the lovely addition brought on by Season 4. It saw his introduction into the main cast, which was a joy to see for the first time. Still, he's had some pains being introduced, as there has been very little for him to actually do, given his predicament with that chip. That will most certainly get addressed this season, and probably very early. I'm eager to see how that goes down.
I should address the Big Bad of Season 4. It centers around Adam, but you can consider The Initiative as a whole the Big Bad. Starting with Adam, I really kind of liked him. I loved his whole schpiel about being one with his entire body, understanding how it all works. I mean sure, he was a regular Frankenstein's monster deal, but I can appreciate that. It was done well enough. As for The Initiative, they were just kind of annoying. It was pretty obvious from the beginning they were dealing in shady business. I didn't like Walsh at all, as well as pretty much everyone else save Forrest, but even then he annoyed me at times. Riley was okay as well, and easily the most likable, but I don't know if he has much staying power. We'll see next season.
Overall, this was very much dead even with Season 3. A less interesting Big Bad, a little more consistency (in my opinion, even including those two "bad" episodes), and conclusions that made me feel that same way, that way being "oh, okay that's cool." I have very high hopes for Season 5. A lot has been set up, and I expect a lot to go down.
I was very pleased by Season 1 of Angel, even despite my gripes of it being very episodic. That was to be expected, I guess. The thing about Angel is that the characters are consistently awesome. From the very first episode, Angel told that world that he was no longer going to be held down by Buffy. Cordelia was able to break out of the shadow of Sunnydale High. Doyle has five minutes of very enjoyable fame. Wesley is shining in a feature role that untaps the potential we couldn't see in his supporting role on Buffy coupled with his "romance" with Cordelia. I greatly enjoy(ed) all four of these characters, which is awesome because that is needed with a small main cast.
I also greatly enjoy how the Angel monsters are a lot less "rawr terrorizing the place" and more subtle in their deviance and evil-doing. I feel like they have much more presence on the show. While Buffy is a lot of times about "hey I've got these problems, and oh crap there's a monster," Angel is about "this monster is doing this and I need to figure a way out to stop it or else bad things are going to happen." I hope that makes sense. I guess I'm trying to say that even though the premise of both Buffy and Angel are pretty similar (supernatural crime solvers), each show has a very different feel, and I really appreciate that, and major kudos go to the writers of Angel.
The thing about Season 1 was that there wasn't really a conclusion, and I'm not sure how I feel about that. This season was about Angel settling into L.A. and making contacts and enemies, and now the real problems are about to start for him in Season 2. If I think about Season 1 being entirely setup, then that doesn't make me very happy. But then I remember that Season 1 also has three amazing episodes (I Will Remember You, Hero, Five by Five) and a bunch of other good ones, then I am happy. So I'll choose to just be pleased with the level of quality that was brought out of the get-go.
So, Season 2 should be better than Season 1 with the introduction of a true overarching plot and the same consistent quality I saw in Season 1. Here's hoping!
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snowpork I wanna be a SuperNiceDog when I grow up!
Finally got that stuff out of the way. Here's some character rankings. I'm going to include some of the characters who were "good guys" and plot important but not main cast(so pretty much Anya, Riley, Tara, and Kate).
Buffy the Vampire Slayer Giles Anya Spike Xander Buffy Riley Willow Tara
Angel Angel Wesley Doyle Cordelia Kate
and for funsies, here's both rankings combined for overall standings!
Angel Giles Wesley Anya Spike Doyle Xander Cordelia Buffy Riley Willow Tara Kate
I've heard that Maggie Walsh was intended to be the Big Bad of the season, but she had to leave the show to do something else, so they threw in Adam at the last minute.
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xfd dude, it's just a popularity contest on the internets. -Vlado
From: ZaziGuado | #188 I don't like her, but I expect to see her in the opening credits come the start of Season 5.
This actually doesn't happen, but it's solely due to contractual reasons from what I understand. For whatever reason she couldn't be listed as part of the lead cast, so they put her down as guest starring.
Kinda weird. Just figured I'd let you know.
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No amount of planning will ever replace dumb luck.
My apparently unnatural lack of affection towards Willow has been well documented. Don't think I actually am joyous every time Riley is on the screen. Riley and Willow are probably interchangeable depending on what episode I watched.
Also, probably tomorrow afternoon, or even tonight if I get bored enough. No plans for the evening.
I actually kind of like Adam, but I think the biggest problem with him was that they just couldn't physically move him very well. That actor was just so layered down in his costume that he could hardly move, and that meant he was very slow moving in fight scenes and stuff. So I figure that's why he was used so sparingly.
I think he would have been better if he could have been involved in the action a little better.
I mean his only moves while fighting were "stick them with the bone thing" and "do a forward push with one arm". That was it. >_>
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The batman villians all seem to be one big joke that batman refuses to laugh at - SantaRPG