Board 8 > So before the Zimmerman-Martin case there was only Hispanic

(+) Yeah! (+)

Now, in every media article I read, Zimmerman is a white-hispanic. So, is Obama a white-black man?

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Yes.

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have you seriously not seen obama referred to as a white-black man before

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Reverend Al and the media wouldn't dare go after a hispanic person. They fight back. So they have to differentiate and create the white-hispanic. Otherwise, there would be nothing to rally around.

GuessMyUserName posted...
have you seriously not seen obama referred to as a white-black man before

No, in dozens of media articles I've seen referencing Obama, not one has ever called him a white-black man.

And if you can find a major media article that does please link it (which I doubt you will).

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Hispanic technically is an ethnicity that refers to people of any race with ancestors from Latin America. Insofar as it's used as a race, it traditionally corresponds with white, yeah. Spanish, German, French, Italian, Irish, Polish, English, Persian......all these are white. That's why not too long ago no one listed Hispanic as a race- because it was just part of white. According to the current Census Bureau usage (as an ethnicity, not a race), that's not technically correct, because it's possible to be a black Hispanic- for example, if you are descended from Brazilian slaves.

As for black, the traditional rule is that one drop of black blood made you black. See Plessy v. Ferguson, for example, where a 7/8 white man was not allowed to ride in the white compartment of a train.

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In other words, it is correct to call Zimmerman "white," "hispanic," and "white-hispanic." They are all correct.

It is probably not correct to call President Obama plain "white" because it wasn't good enough for him to board the white section of a train before the 1950s.

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By those standards, Obama is a black-white man, actually.

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red sox 777 posted...
Hispanic technically is an ethnicity that refers to people of any race with ancestors from Latin America. Insofar as it's used as a race, it traditionally corresponds with white, yeah. Spanish, German, French, Italian, Irish, Polish, English, Persian......all these are white. That's why not too long ago no one listed Hispanic as a race- because it was just part of white. According to the current Census Bureau usage (as an ethnicity, not a race), that's not technically correct, because it's possible to be a black Hispanic- for example, if you are descended from Brazilian slaves.

As for black, the traditional rule is that one drop of black blood made you black. See Plessy v. Ferguson, for example, where a 7/8 white man was not allowed to ride in the white compartment of a train.

You can't use that now. If you ask any person in America what "Hispanic" means, no one is going to say "Oh that can mean French or Persion or English." Obviously Hispanic in this day pretty much refers to one that is a Mexican national but in some circumstances is also used as a central or even South American origin.

You are only trying to justify that the media is intentionally inflaming the situation.

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red sox 777 posted...
Hispanic technically is an ethnicity that refers to people of any race with ancestors from Latin America. Insofar as it's used as a race, it traditionally corresponds with white, yeah. Spanish, German, French, Italian, Irish, Polish, English, Persian......all these are white. That's why not too long ago no one listed Hispanic as a race- because it was just part of white. According to the current Census Bureau usage (as an ethnicity, not a race), that's not technically correct, because it's possible to be a black Hispanic- for example, if you are descended from Brazilian slaves.

As for black, the traditional rule is that one drop of black blood made you black. See Plessy v. Ferguson, for example, where a 7/8 white man was not allowed to ride in the white compartment of a train.

You're right, looking at Zimmerman's mugshot the 1st thought that came to my mind was how German he was.

Give me a break.

You can't use that now. If you ask any person in America what "Hispanic" means, no one is going to say "Oh that can mean French or Persion or English." Obviously Hispanic in this day pretty much refers to one that is a Mexican national but in some circumstances is also used as a central or even South American origin.

You are only trying to justify that the media is intentionally inflaming the situation.

For 90% of Hispanic people, on the Census they are supposed to answer that they are "white" on the race question. Then answer "hispanic" on the ethnicity question. They are white for the purposes of the Census, and they have been white for hundreds of years. Why should we get to tell hundreds of millions of people that they are no longer white, but rather this new race category we created in the past 20 years?

It's perfectly fine for the media to refer to Zimmerman as straight up white, so white-hispanic is okay because it is no stronger than white by itself.

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Why should we get to tell hundreds of millions of people that they are no longer white, but rather this new race category we created in the past 20 years?

Because most of them want it that way. The funny thing is, in MOST cases, you can claim whatever race you want. Even in the military. If I say that I'm black, the military will officially consider me to be black. It's completely my choice.

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You're right, looking at Zimmerman's mugshot the 1st thought that came to my mind was how German he was.

Give me a break.

His German ancestry is irrelevant. If both his parents were 100% white-hispanic, he would still be white. Straight up white, no hyphen with hispanic even needed.

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red sox 777 posted...
You're right, looking at Zimmerman's mugshot the 1st thought that came to my mind was how German he was.

Give me a break.

His German ancestry is irrelevant. If both his parents were 100% white-hispanic, he would still be white. Straight up white, no hyphen with hispanic even needed.

Except when he needs college financial aid right? Then all of a sudden he's pure hispanic.

You are trying to justify this race thing but you can't do it because the minorities usually play it both ways.

When they want to be a minority, they will claim that when it is convenient for them. However, if it pays to be white, then they claim that too.

red sox 777 posted...
You can't use that now. If you ask any person in America what "Hispanic" means, no one is going to say "Oh that can mean French or Persion or English." Obviously Hispanic in this day pretty much refers to one that is a Mexican national but in some circumstances is also used as a central or even South American origin.

You are only trying to justify that the media is intentionally inflaming the situation.

For 90% of Hispanic people, on the Census they are supposed to answer that they are "white" on the race question. Then answer "hispanic" on the ethnicity question. They are white for the purposes of the Census, and they have been white for hundreds of years. Why should we get to tell hundreds of millions of people that they are no longer white, but rather this new race category we created in the past 20 years?

It's perfectly fine for the media to refer to Zimmerman as straight up white, so white-hispanic is okay because it is no stronger than white by itself.

Given you're from boston, probably next to San Francisco as the most ass-backwards city in America, I have trouble thinking that your words are just a bunch of liberal brain-washed rehashes that you've been fed.

Kind of like the war on women that the dems are spouting off about. Stay at home moms aren't real people except when convenient.

Except when he needs college financial aid right? Then all of a sudden he's pure hispanic.

You are trying to justify this race thing but you can't do it because the minorities usually play it both ways.

When they want to be a minority, they will claim that when it is convenient for them. However, if it pays to be white, then they claim that too.

Well, I'm not a fan of the racial classifications for colleges either. But I'm mostly pointing out that the terms Hispanic and Black are very different. Obama historically could not just claim to be white- "My mother is white" wouldn't have gotten him very far in the South pre-1960s. On the other hand, Zimmerman could have ridden in the white compartment of the train, married a Southern belle, etc. with no problems with the law.

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As defined by the government, White is a race, Hispanic is an ethnicity. On all federal programs, you will be asked your race, and then whether you are hispanic or not. So you can be Hispanic, and then also White (or Black)

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Given you're from boston, probably next to San Francisco as the most ass-backwards city in America, I have trouble thinking that your words are just a bunch of liberal brain-washed rehashes that you've been fed.

Did you seriously just accuse me of being liberal? Well...........

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While everything you guys are saying about the difference between race and ethnicity is technically true... I challenge you to find me ANY instance of someone being described as a "white hispanic" in say, the New York Times, prior to Zimmerman.

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Robazoid posted...
He's like that cookie on Seinfeld

Tasty at first, then makes you puke?

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It's topics like this that prove that Race is a stupid category that has had little thought put into it.

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Probably it doesn't come up because until recently, Zimmerman would have just been labeled "white" and nothing more!

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From: red sox 777 | #024
Probably it doesn't come up because until recently, Zimmerman would have just been labeled "white" and nothing more!

This is totally false and you know it. Someone who's skin is brown and speaks spanish is considered by most people to be hispanic, latino, or just mexican literally 100% of the time.

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If someone can find a major media article (ABC, NBC, Yahoo, FOX, CBS) of an instance of a "white-hispanic" being mentioned before the Martin shooting, then I will drop this.

However, until I see that, I will continue to believe that the media just inflames this entire thing.

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Obviously Hispanic in this day pretty much refers to one that is a Mexican national but in some circumstances is also used as a central or even South American origin.

No.
hispanic just means from a spanish speaking country. spain optional. that's it. mexican is one of them but i wouldn't even bank on mexican being the dominant one in the US - especially since puerto rico *is* our territory. so you're absolutely wrong there to how you're defining it.

which also goes to show that it isn't a race. white and black are races. hispanic is not.

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....you'll find as many articles as you want if you look up papers talking about demographics. it's nothing new and was a notable problem in the 2000 census. so yes, you should drop this. usually it doesn't make a difference to differentiate it, however in a shooting like this where race could be a factor, it does. especially in a place as ethnically diverse as florida.

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This is totally false and you know it. Someone who's skin is brown and speaks spanish is considered by most people to be hispanic, latino, or just mexican literally 100% of the time.

Okay, fine, by recently I meant before.....say, 1995. Maybe 2000. But who has still read the New York Times since the Internet got going anyway?

I'm happy with "white-hispanic" because in the interests of linguistic continuity, I'd prefer people to use the term that's been used here for 500 years rather than the one that's only gained traction in the last 20. "White-hispanic" reminds people that most Hispanics are white, something that has been forgotten in America at astonishing speed.

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Wanglicious posted...
Obviously Hispanic in this day pretty much refers to one that is a Mexican national but in some circumstances is also used as a central or even South American origin.

No.
hispanic just means from a spanish speaking country. spain optional. that's it. mexican is one of them but i wouldn't even bank on mexican being the dominant one in the US - especially since puerto rico *is* our territory. so you're absolutely wrong there to how you're defining it.

which also goes to show that it isn't a race. white and black are races. hispanic is not.

Yet when asked to define race, Hispanic is always a choice.

People avoid the fact here. If you ask someone in America what "Hispanic" means, 90% of the population will say Mexican and the rest will say a Spanish speaking country defined mostly as Mexican or central american.

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"White-hispanic" reminds people that most Hispanics are white, something that has been forgotten in America at astonishing speed.

The problem we have here is that the dictionary definition and the actual usage of the word by 99% of the population differs. And I don't think that's a recent phenomenon either. The suggestion that as recently as 10 years ago, brown-skinned Spanish speaking people were considered the absolute social and political equivalents of white-skinned English speaking people is completely absurd to me.

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red sox 777 posted...
This is totally false and you know it. Someone who's skin is brown and speaks spanish is considered by most people to be hispanic, latino, or just mexican literally 100% of the time.

Okay, fine, by recently I meant before.....say, 1995. Maybe 2000. But who has still read the New York Times since the Internet got going anyway?

I'm happy with "white-hispanic" because in the interests of linguistic continuity, I'd prefer people to use the term that's been used here for 500 years rather than the one that's only gained traction in the last 20. "White-hispanic" reminds people that most Hispanics are white, something that has been forgotten in America at astonishing speed.

And like I said, I am refering to cases in articles of the major media. Have you ever read a case of someone being referred to as a white-hispanic before Zimmerman?

I am looking for examples because I have never once seen it before. And "major-media" means CBS, NBC, ABC, and even the major internet media such as yahoo.

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The suggestion that as recently as 10 years ago, brown-skinned Spanish speaking people were considered the absolute social and political equivalents of white-skinned English speaking people is completely absurd to me.

You keep saying "brown-skinned Spanish speaking people." If they do not speak Spanish, are they not Hispanic?

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Wanglicious posted...
....you'll find as many articles as you want if you look up papers talking about demographics. it's nothing new and was a notable problem in the 2000 census. so yes, you should drop this. usually it doesn't make a difference to differentiate it, however in a shooting like this where race could be a factor, it does. especially in a place as ethnically diverse as florida.

Okay, let's pretend Zimmerman is 100% Mexican blood and his last name is Gonzalez.

Tell me honestly, would this covered as wide-spread as it is now by the media?

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that's pretty interesting considering 90% would have to include major states like new york and florida. of which mexican is the 3rd biggest name, behind puerto rican and dominican. hell, half of cali probably too. so no, that's just wrong. so no, you'll get mexican in some parts of the south, but for cities and urban areas you'll find mexican isn't the go-to hispanic.


and hispanic isn't a choice by the government, who literally catalogs race. so no, you're wrong on that too. white, black, asian, or indian/native-american will be mentioned for race. not hispanic, because it isn't a race, it isn't defined as a race, and anyone doing so is actually wrong.

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You keep saying "brown-skinned Spanish speaking people." If they do not speak Spanish, are they not Hispanic?

Well, it gets tricky there. Sometimes in terms of pure skin-tone, it can be difficult to tell the difference between Hispanic, Asian, half-black. Native American, etc. But speaking Spanish is a pretty dead giveaway of "this person is Hispanic."

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and hispanic isn't a choice by the government,

Perhaps your life might improve if you stopped seeing government as the ultimate authority on every ****ing thing ever.

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Well, remember that the percentage of Hispanics in the US has grown very rapidly over the past 20 years. As that has happened, I believe (not completely sure) that the percentage of US Hispanics who speak English has also fallen rapidly.

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speaking spanish is kinda interesting because while you'll usually get hispanic, if you get a spanish person they may be offended by it, because... they really aren't. they're spanish. term doesn't quite fit for them.

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SmartMuffin posted...
Perhaps your life might improve if you stopped seeing government as the ultimate authority on every ****ing thing ever.


This would be nice if it was relevant to his post. He replied to a post saying Hispanic is always a choice for race on stuff, which... It isn't for the reasons stated.

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Doompa posted...
Wanglicious posted...
....you'll find as many articles as you want if you look up papers talking about demographics. it's nothing new and was a notable problem in the 2000 census. so yes, you should drop this. usually it doesn't make a difference to differentiate it, however in a shooting like this where race could be a factor, it does. especially in a place as ethnically diverse as florida.

Okay, let's pretend Zimmerman is 100% Mexican blood and his last name is Gonzalez.

Tell me honestly, would this covered as wide-spread as it is now by the media?

And this question is conveniently ignored.

Because everyone knows the truth. No it wouldn't be.

Well, it gets tricky there. Sometimes in terms of pure skin-tone, it can be difficult to tell the difference between Hispanic, Asian, half-black. Native American, etc. But speaking Spanish is a pretty dead giveaway of "this person is Hispanic."

I don't know. To me, it seems kind of silly to use "Spanish-speaking" to differentiate between races. I've met lots of "Hispanics" (in quotes because I'm not sure if you'd consider them Hispanic) that don't know any Spanish, while also meeting blacks, Native Americans, and Asians who do know Spanish.

In conclusion, race is too complicated and it's simply easier to consider Hispanic to be an ethnicity. I've even heard of older Hispanic people being referred to as Caucasian in their birth certificates.

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SmartMuffin posted...
You keep saying "brown-skinned Spanish speaking people." If they do not speak Spanish, are they not Hispanic?

Well, it gets tricky there. Sometimes in terms of pure skin-tone, it can be difficult to tell the difference between Hispanic, Asian, half-black. Native American, etc. But speaking Spanish is a pretty dead giveaway of "this person is Hispanic."

It may shock you to hear this, but did you know that it's possible for anyone to learn Spanish?

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I'm currently studying Chinese in university, CLEARLY I MUST BE ASIAN.

Board 8 logic.

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I've heard some people say that their parents forbid them to learn Spanish, to avoid being categorized as Hispanic by people.

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silly me, thinking that for a case to be used by the government shouldn't include language specific to the case in the way that the government itself uses it, especially in a race-related crime which the government has laws for.

why you'd think the government should have no place to using its own categories which are very relevant parts of a criminal case matter.

and silly government, using terms that actually make sense when it tries to catalog its people.




I don't know. To me, it seems kind of silly to use "Spanish-speaking" to differentiate between races. I've met lots of "Hispanics" (in quotes because I'm not sure if you'd consider them Hispanic) that don't know any Spanish, while also meeting blacks, Native Americans, and Asians who do know Spanish.

nah, they're hispanic. just means from a spanish speaking (again, spain optional) country there. basic rule there works like any other language: first generation = doesn't speak a lick of english, second generation = speaks both, third = speaks english, barely if any spanish. that's the usual trend that happens but they're still hispanic. though obviously they can't really have a 'hispanic baby' or something. >___>;

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It seems that the main points of this are being ignored.

No one can come up with an example of a major article of someone being identified as a "white-hispanic" from a major media article before this Martin case.

This shows that the media has aggravated this entire situation.

nah, they're hispanic. just means from a spanish speaking (again, spain optional) country there. basic rule there works like any other language: first generation = doesn't speak a lick of english, second generation = speaks both, third = speaks english, barely if any spanish. that's the usual trend that happens but they're still hispanic. though obviously they can't really have a 'hispanic baby' or something. >___>;

Oh no, don't get me wrong. I agree that "Hispanic" means that a person has some ancestry from a Spanish-speaking country. Just saying that it's silly to use the language that a person speaks to determine ethnicity (and worse, "race")

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Race is stupid.