Board 8 > SeabassDebeste finishes Buffy the Vampire Slayer and its spinoff [spoilers]

(+) Yeah! (+)

marvin candle = timetraveling race-bending lindsey
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40. Ethan Rayne
Who? - Giles's childhood friend who loves causing magical mayhem.

Dude just wants to make a few bucks while watching the world go up in hilarious flames.

39. Riley Finn
Who? - the tall, polite white guy.

Riley's greatest sin is, by far, that he's unnecessary. There's no need for Buffy to be in a relationship in Season 4, yet he winds up getting this uncompelling character arc about learning to distrust the Initiative. Buffy and Riley actually don't make a bad couple; they're just not remotely interesting together when thing are going well. In a series titled Buffy the Vampire Slayer, you don't really need regular humans to be able to fight monsters. You just don't.

Season 5's Riley is legitimately interesting and pretty awesome, because it's just so much easier to write for a character when you have an exit plan. He's insecure and competent and underutilized, and he senses this gaping hole in Buffy's heart. He looks to where he thinks Buffy would look to fill it, but her neglectful actions seem to belie her comforting words. I'm quite happy when he finally leaves the show at his very best.

38. Skip
Who? - the demon who works for what seems to be the Powers That Be.

Skip's utter affability is one of the great parts of interacting with the Powers That Be. Guy's just so pleasant and he feels like the prototype for Sahjahn-type demons. He's yet another casualty of the explosive diarrhea that characterized much of Season 4, unfortunately.

37. Kate
Who? - the cop that is at times at odds with and at times helpful to Angel.

Kate has a lot of problems, especially as Season 1 of Angel wears on and she just seems to be hostile without understanding. There seems to be something of a shiptease when she first appears, but I'm guessing fan reaction was awful because that hardly ever rears its head again after the first few. But as Season 2 goes, she seems to understand the role that Angel has to play, and her begrudging cooperation/occasional antagonism with Angel is great.

Like Riley, it's when she's being written out that she's actually at her best. Kate is fired from the police force, and perhaps that's what stops her from becoming as much of a monster as Angel, as this was his DARK PHASE. We never get true closure on her final line, the miracle that saved her: I never invited you in. Would have loved to get a bit more of her once the roster was deep and she could just be a pleasant guest instead of a weary regular.

36. Darla
Who? - the vampire that serves the Master and sired Angelus.

I hate to do my boy Julie Benz dirty, but her acting is pretty bad as Darla. Darla's almost entirely incapable of pulling off any dramatic scenes or lines without coming off mega-camp. (In all fairness: it's not easy to say the name 'Angel' and sound convincing, and she had the dubious honor of being the first vampire to wield a firearm - and two of them, at that.)

But she's game, and she's fun. She keeps finding a way to appear in the series long after her time is up. She's willing to play subservient roles, be goofy (for a relatively dark/serious-in-tone character), and wear these ridiculous bust-enhancing (and how) uncomfortable dresses. While the delivery can be cringe-worthy, her dialogue actually is pretty great - both when she's playful and taunting, and when she's disgusted at having her soul polluted. She has this ridiculous pregnancy storyline that feels slightly cancerous, but damned if it isn't fun to watch her act out a sitcom episode with Angel Investigations.

Darla is almost never the best part of an episode, but the ones with her in them usually benefit from it.
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Riley above Xander and Kate above anyone, lol
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What a massive upset in Xander being this low!
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Kate being this high should seem like an aberration for sure. I think I'm strongly biased because her arc is one of general improvement and she winds up going out on a really high note.

Riley is above Xander because Riley is okay and Xander sucks. Though if you've been following then you probably don't think of Xander at 41 as an upset...!
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lol, I expected Xander to be at the bottom of the rankings based on your writeups until they got posted and were clearly involving more characters than I imagined

35. Merl
Who? - the demon informant that Angel always seems to hit up when he needs intel.

Poor Merl, man. Guy never did anything wrong except creep a bit, and he absolutely gets mauled by Angel time and again. His creaky, whiny voice always cracked me up - it's even more out of whack compared to his appearance than the likes of Skip. Legitimately felt awful when he died. And Angel was such a dick to him.

34. Warren Mears
Who? - the inventor who leads the Trio.

Warren is one twisted motherfucker. Guy slowly becomes less and less sympathetic. The sexbot honestly isn't even that bad from my perspective, but he gradually becomes more misogynistic and terrifying and eventually proves himself sociopathic and essentially devoid of compassion. He plans to kill Jonathan quite early in S6. All of this is perhaps enhanced by his dorkiness; he feels like a twisted, exaggerated version of a 'nice guy.' He's wonderfully characterized and entirely irredeemable and disgusting.

33. Mr. Trick
Who? - the entrepreneurial-minded vampire who joins forces with the Mayor.

Mr. Trick is never really a real threat, but the dude has class. Always wears an impeccable suit and he's got a load of charisma. Easy to be charismatic when you're suit-wearing and not that evil. He's responsible for the Band Candy. He eventually gets punked by Faith, and that's a perfectly fine exit for him.

32. The Master
Who? - the Big Bad of Season 1, living right on the Hellmouth.

I nearly died laughing the first time the Master appeared in all his insanely camp glory. Guy is the first hilariously strange-looking demon and for an ancient evil overlord, he really just seems to want to get out and rule the world in darkness and mostly get along with people. Is that too much to ask?

31. Jenny Calendar
Who? - the Wiccan computer lady that Giles crushes on.

Jenny's death is so fucking stupid of her it makes me want to drop her in the rankings. But until then she's... okay, actually, Jenny is way too high. I think I have her all the way up here because she's so hot, because when I actually try to articulate what I liked about her, I'm clueless. She does a lot of really annoying stuff, and up until she proves to be a giant moron around the time Angelus is unleashed, I'm pretty sure I only like her due to her interactions with Giles. Oh well. She is hot.
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Imagine Andrew being last man standing from the trio as of season 6. What a world we live in

Also thinking about Mr trick just now made me realize that he's Mister Poe from Mulctuary Money Management in the A Series of Unfortunate Events netflix show! Dude is just class.
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30. The Mayor
Who? - Richard Wilkins III.

The Mayor kinda looks like Dr. Cox and it bothers me, because while Cox is a jerkass hero, the Mayor is this nice villain. It takes several episodes to warm up to him because he looks like he's just smiling and being polite to put on a show. It's really only when he genuinely mourns Faith in 3x22 that I realize 100% that the smile isn't fake and that he really is a nice dude who also happens to be batshit crazy and near-omnicidal. My favorite visual gag with the Mayor by far is his to-do list, where 'become invincible' is checked off along items like getting a haircut and having that meeting with the city council.

29. Lilah Morgan
Who? - the tall, brunette lawyer at Wolfram and Hart.

Lilah is actually a super-enjoyable screen presence. She's clever and cutthroat, but not a prodigy or a genius. She can outwit morons like Angel, but she can be shaken and terrified, and that vulnerability makes her compelling. It's awesome to watch her struggle with the feelings of inadequacy around Lindsey.

The biggest issue Lilah has is the S3/4 malaise where with Lindsey gone, the writers feel like they need to EMPOWER Lilah some more - mostly by giving her wimpy domino characters (Gavin and Linwood) to knock down. She also takes on a meta, tired commentary toward Angel about 'we both know how this goes' - and then the episode proceeds entirely straight. It's not clever and it actually emphasizes the repetitiveness there.

The absolute best Lilah is of course the 4x22 Lilah, which makes me sad.

28. Drusilla
Who? - the waify, crazy vampire that rolls in with Spike.

Drusilla is just waaay over the top. She's got ridiculously crazy eyes. She talks totally loopy. She's skeletally thin. She seems to float rather than walk. And her dialogue is bizarre. Despite being kind of funny-looking and way-too-thin, she actually feels like proof that . When Angel S2 starts to sag under the weight of the Darla-as-a-human story, Drusilla gives the season wings nonetheless. Unlike Darla, she's always one of the most notable characters in the frame - but her reps are a little too limited and her role often too silly to rank much higher. And this comment is going to look really strange later in the list but whatever. <_<

has he gained like a ton of weight or something

27. Glory
Who? - the red-dress-wearing Big Bad god of Season 5.

Glory is crazy and she wears it fantastically well. She's not much of a villain in terms of motivation or being threatening, but she's hilarious and likable. Plus, in a surprising bit of sympathy, her craziness bleeds out so much that you can often understand the pain she feels and her inability to relate to humanity.

26. Amy
Who? - the witch whose body gets first hijacked by her mom and then transformed into a rat.

Amy is fucking badass as hell. I love the direction they take her after being seemingly a clear one-off. Her rat-like characteristics after being transformed are hilarious, and she becomes appropriately spiteful but not quite evil. Really nice minor character to have around.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

she actually feels like proof that .

Um...

SeabassDebeste posted...

has he gained like a ton of weight or something

Um...
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Making his Drusilla writeup full of incomprehensible nonsense, how very meta
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oh fucking A

the weight gain was meant about mr trick. what i get for typing responses alongside writeups
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also the unfinished sentence should read: 'Despite being kind of funny-looking and way-too-thin, she actually feels like proof that crazy alone can make you really sexy.'
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Part of the reason my Drusilla list was weird looking: I shifted my rankings. Drusilla is actually 19 now. Augh. Real #28 here.

28. Eve
Who? - Angel's first liaison to the Senior Partners.

Eve has some lovely phases. She starts out invincible, can't-be-touched, immaculate, alpha-female. Then she shifts to dreaming and scheming and loving. And finally, she's left outright broken and deranged and pathetic. The progression from something of a love-to-hate character to a pitiable mess is both satisfying and a little sad. Great character to emphasize what working for Wolfram is gonna be like.

25. Clem
Who? - Spike's poker-playing demon friend.

Clem is the best of the minor mega-affable demons. He plays for a kitty, but he's a nice dude. It's amazing whenever he shows up - whether it's at Xander's wedding (where he offers his condolences on Spike and Buffy's breakup) or in a demon bar (where his friendly rapport with Buffy immediately undermines her claim ).

24. Jinx
Who? - Glory's simpering henchman.

Jinx is hilarious. Guy just has an endless slew of groveling epithets for Glory. It's unclear that she actually appreciates them until later, but she really does. The dude only wants to serve Her New-And-Improved-ness. And he's always smiling really nervously. He was the best part of having Glory as the enemy of the arc.

23. Marcus Hamilton
Who? - Young Adam Baldwin, the liaison that replaces Eve.

Undoubtedly the strongest mix of charisma and intimidation among villainous characters. His attire, stature, posture, and composure make him one probably the most professional-looking of all the characters of the show. He moves like the Terminator when on a mission but is happy to smile or reveal a pen when that's what's called for. As Lorne points out, his demands for Angel to condone and facilitate evil deals still leave him more likable than Eve.

22. Lindsey McDonald
Who? - Angel's nemesis

Lindsey in Season 5 isn't really the same Lindsey as before, but he's fun nonetheless. It's also a kick in the nuts when you find out that Angel wrecked him - a little hint that just because he's putting on the asshole mask as a ruse, doesn't mean he doesn't have asshole qualities for real.

The Lindsey we see at the end of S1 and in S2 is enormously interesting. He defects to Angel briefly and, in one of the most obvious moves ever, is seduced back to Wolfram at the end of the episode. (The fact that Wolfram wants him back is a nice little seed for the idea that they hire their enemies.) It seems like they're going to make him more evil than ever... but instead he's more conflicted than ever. Which winds up making a pointlessly evil character into something much more interesting.

I'm not a huge fan of Lindsey's mega-detached/gravelly voice. Sounds like he needs to clear his throat and talk in a higher register. But it is unique and he is a very solid presence.
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21. Andrew
Who? - the WTF member of the Trio.

Andrew is bad for almost all of Season 6. The Trio isn't a bad idea, but they honestly had no business being that prominent in the plot. Worse, many of their jokes are straight-up references and not clever takes on them. Andrew is by far the worst - Warren is a sociopath and Jonathan is a formerly beloved extra who has still clearly has a conscience. Andrew speaks stupidly femininely and brings nothing beyond 'nerd' to the table in terms of personality, and he's the one you can count on most to comment on any sort of innuendo or opportunity to reference Star Wars - and it stops being funny after the first thirteen times per episode.

It's when the Trio's position weakens that Andrew becomes more interesting. He's content to go along with Warren when Warren attempts to rape and accidentally kills his ex. It's just another example of Andrew's going with whatever stupidity Warren cooks up. But as the season goes deeper, a rift develops between Jonathan and Warren, and Andrew's choice of Warren over Jonathan becomes significant. He actively conspires to murder Jonathan, and then when things go awry (including a hilarious jetpack fail), it seems to become clearer and clearer that Andrew is in love with Warren. He'd seemingly be a pretty offensive gay stereotype, but the fact that his actions developed this motivation finally gives him some depth.

Surprisingly, Andrew actually reaches his moral nadir in Season 7, where he almost inexplicably returns and becomes a semi-regular, killing Jonathan. His character doesn't really change much early, constrained to making references mainly. Yet when you trim down on the miserable echo chamber that he lived in during his first season, Andrew's humor becomes a lot more entertaining. The reactions to Andrew become as much a sense of humor as his actual dialogue. He's surrounded by enemies who are very rightfully suspicious of his attempts to ingratiate himself. In a season that's one of the weakest (spoilers!) for its main characters, Andrew's attempts to redeem himself are easily a high point.

Also his appearance in the newly activated Slayer episode of Angel S5 is probably his best episode of the show's run. It's a triumph, and a tribute to Whedon's faith in this throwaway character. Like with Xander, you kinda gotta respect the dedication shown to a potentially pretty bad character.
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20. Dawn
Who? - Buffy's sister, introduced in S5 via reality-warp.

Like so many other characters in the Buffyverse (but unlike Andrew), I think Dawn's introduction is her at her best. Her bratty, early teenager attitude is perfect. That diary episode just shows everything you want - her innocence, her relationship with her sister, her willingness to cuddle with Mom. Her crushes on Xander and Spike are hilarious. (On Spike vs. Angel's soul: 'Spike has a chip. Same diff.') And there's something so wonderfully mysterious about her.

The problem is that Dawn carries dramatic storylines very poorly. The acting is never exactly a low point. But as soon as Dawn is established as a center of drama, the show quickly seems to forget what made Dawn fun, and it burdens her with this obnoxious solemness and angst that honestly, we've moved past by this point. The fact is, Dawn came into existence magically, so she'd better be damn entertaining all the time. She's not. Her poutiness gets tiring, hugging it out with Buffy and Mom gets tiring, and her kleptomania is probably the worst subplot of Season 6. She's really up here for that first stretch of Season 5.

She's solid in Season 7 as a support role. I like that she gets a little episode to herself - and then has the indignity of having Amanda steal it from her. Her connection with Xander is a little surprising, but it makes sense. Like Xander, she rehabilitates herself after falling hard from grace.

Early S5 Dawn > S7 Dawn > Late S5 Dawn > S6 Dawn

19. Drusilla

NOTE: I also moved #18 way up. Another reason the Drusilla writeup was a mess!

18. Tara
Who? - Willow's first girlfriend.

I don't hold it against Tara that her family episode was one of the most offensive pieces of garbage of Season 5. Well, I might hold it against her a little considering how HYPE I got for her. I really like Tara as a side character - she has a mini-arc as she becomes more comfortable in her own skin and integrates into the Scoobies. It makes sense why she has no friends before, due to her family and anxiety issues, and damned if she doesn't have an adorable smile.

The stutter is a bit annoying, but it's part and parcel with her as a person, and it's really nice acting how that improves (and nice directing with the way her clothing begins to express more confidence as well). Tara has a beautiful voice and strong principles and is a great moral compass. Incredible support and someone you'd always want on your side when shit goes down.

She also very clearly, by design, never becomes a main character. But she does grow beyond being just someone who serves Willow's character, when she becomes the one that Buffy can confide in during the breakup, and someone Dawn can look up to as a semi-maternal figure. I feel that the fact that Tara's not really an independent character ought to hold her down, but I can't help feeling like she's ranked too low right now. Argh.
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These rankings are killing me. I think I've identified like 5 more that I want to swap lower at this point, but I'm just gonna soldier on. The top... 5 to 7? should be solid...
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17. Lorne
Who? - the green demon, former Host of Caritas.

Alas, like so many other characters, Lorne kind of peaks with his first appearances. He's a nice supporting piece

16. Illyria
Who? - Fred, but blue.

Illyria is almost certainly ranked too high due to her appearance, potential, and recency bias. (I'm probably going to drop her in the final ranking.) She just doesn't have enough to her name. But she's still awesome - looking like a sexed up, blue Amy Acker helps a lot, and it's great to have another interesting, physical badass. There's obviously room to expand on her character, but she's a great blend of opaque and transparent, frustrated with the human emotions and fascinated by them. She's dynamite with Spike and smooth as butter with Wesley. Really wish we could've seen more of her with Angel - I'm sure their outright hostility (awesome in its own right!) could have developed further.

The sense of something ancient and inhuman, wracked by a grief she can't describe or comprehend, trapped in a human body and stripped of her army and her powers, destined to fall in love due to her human emotions... it's a fascinating tale. Illyria's story might be the #1 reason to read the comics.

15. Harmony
Who? - Cordelia's Mean-Girl friend and future vampire.

Harmony's pretty straightforward, so let's just do a quick Harmony ranking.

5. Spike's girlfriend/vamp Harmony on Buffy
- The worst Harmony. She feels overused and relies too much on a predictable sense of humor. The whininess toward Spike accomplishes nothing. Not awful, but usually too much of a dissonant voice to work effectively.

4. Season 1
Fun, but barely present.

3. Seasons 2-3
Ranks a bit higher than S1 Harmony, if only because she gets to act superior to Cordy once she falls in with the Scoobies.

2. Guest appearance on Angel
Really liked her reunion with Cordelia. The only vamp-Harmony/Cordy interaction we get to see, in fact.

1. Angel Season 5
It feels almost weird to rank A5 Harmony against the other versions, because she's mindblowingly superior here. She's far more present than in early-season Buffy, and she never steals the focus wrongly. I think pairing her with Angel, who's self-serious and less sex-minded, is just far more productive than pairing her with Spike, who basically does everything Harmony does but better and slightly less ditzy. Giving her a day-job is the perfect actual reason to keep her both alive and around, and she winds up being the most interesting soulless vampire of all. (Whaaat?)

14. Fred
Who? - Winifred Burkle, the mousy, nervous, skinny girl.

Fred is adorable and lovable, and we're really getting into the good stuff now. I'm penalizing Fred heavily for the way she's introduced into the series and the love of bullshit technobabble and the way she gets thrown into love triangles to mine drama. But she's a really nice case of a trauma victim trying to cope with and get past it. When she smiles, you can actually understand why everyone falls for her and wants her to heal so much. She's courageous and really helps balance a hugely male cast. She really comes into her own at the end of S4, when she's the only one who can resist Jasmine. This heroism largely carries over into S5 and makes her death more tragic.

13. Oz
Who? - as many Buffy fans call him, 'the really quiet kid.'

Oz's stoic, laconic nature makes for an amazing character. He's patient and perceptive and quippy. His witty cracks often cut to the heart of the matter, and you'll never see him saying useless stuff that detracts. He's a master of the underreaction; the episode where he finds out he's a werewolf is hilarious on the Oz front. Shame that the way he goes out is really, really unfortunate.
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these next four were also a nightmare to rank, ugh.

12. The Groosalugg
Who? - the muscular, human champion of Pylea.

Groo is fucking hilarious. Guy subverts every expectation you have of him by being a good-looking, normal human. He's also not vain; he thinks . Love the reaction when he flexes his muscles and Cordelia practically wets herself hoping he'll com-shuk her. And of course, he never truly gets territorial with Cordy the way Angel does. He's not the most perceptive about human dynamics, but he knows how to step aside - and it's amazing when he does.

I don't really know how to rank Groo. He feels way too high in comparison to 'real' main characters who have long character arcs, trials and tribulations, massive changes, and varied relationships. But he's also a delight literally every time he's on screen and responsible for practically zero negative moments and he's always deployed tremendously well. Oh, and he's only the penultimate super-minor character this ridiculously high on the list. Care to take a guess at the last one?

11. Charles Gunn
Who? - the 'muscle' in Angel's crew, lifted from the streets of Los Angeles.

Gunn escaping from unlikely action situations feels like a running joke on Angel. He's the black guy the show refuses to kill off and, all things told, probably the strongest human physical fighter. Generally, his more relaxed attitude provides a refreshing male contrast versus Wesley and Angel's uptight asshole personas. When Angel calls him up, the pitch that catches Gunn's eye is that the job will be 'potentailly life-threatening' - 'Okay!' he says, setting the tone for his character. In fact, he even loosens up Wesley with their short-lived bromance. His relationship with Fred is direct and beautiful. He's good.

I have a conflicted relationship with early-season Gunn. His inner turmoil - leadership versus fun, minding his crew versus his job, his family/roots versus his future and his girl - it all seems interesting in theory, but in practice it winds up giving us some pretty awful episodes. Most of Gunn's gang consists of throwaway characters and hood stereotypes, and the obvious consequences of the choices Gunn faces usually undermines the difficulty of making those decisions. His breakup with Fred (after being embroiled in yet another shit love triangle) is also a case of execution undermining concept; it's certainly compelling that a murder drives the pair apart, but we're generally just left hanging at the end of it all, and there's no 'fireworks' in the resolution - just a shitty way to end something good.

But from late S4 to S5, Gunn is something else. He can rock those suits, as perhaps he first finds out from his mission with Gwen. He realizes that he's just not suited for the pregnancy drama, for Cordy x Connor, for any of that soap opera shit. And hey - we're with you there, buddy! It's an acutely relatable point from a meta perspective, and he's out there having fun... and you know what? He learns something about himself: maybe he doesn't have to be just the muscle. Jasmine puts a damper on extraneous thoughts for a while, but then Wolfram and Hart resurfaces and offers Gunn exactly what he's been looking for.

It's a much more interesting conflict for Gunn in Season 5. The enemy appears to be Wolfram and Hart, yet he's happy to accept their poisoned fruit and use the knowledge they've given him for their benefit. Gunn learns the power of compromise in a way that a lifetime of living on the streets and being 'the muscle' never did. Maybe it's the suits; maybe it's the poking in his head; maybe it's the fact that he's learned to compromise. But I think it's that sheer fear of becoming 'just' the muscle again that causes Gunn to sign that form. And almost immediately, he's trapped, like Angel, to redeeming himself for eternity.
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10. Rupert Giles
Who? - Buffy's bespectacled, middle-aged, British Watcher.

I think the show tries to mine entirely too much drama from Giles's relationship with the Watcher's Council, long after there's any question about it. Buffy's eighteenth birthday is kind of a perfect example of this. Giles starts acting shady, and we're expected to PUMP OUR FISTS when Giles stands up to the Council at the end of it all because HE CARES ABOUT BUFFY MORE. It's hamfisted by that point and only gets worse.

Any cool Watcher's Council versus Father Figure material happens in the very early seasons, when we get to know this prickly yet lovable old man, who desperately wants to spare Buffy the death foretold in 'Prophecy Girl.' The far more interesting Giles stuff is when he questions his necessity and his identity. When Buffy is revealed to be seeing Angel in secret again, Giles tells her straight-up - perhaps in an unfair move himself - 'You have no respect for me or the things I do.' I love the aimlessness he feels in Season 4 and the way he gradually has to redefine his role. Season 5 has his opening a shop and renewing his tenure as the host of the gathering spots, and it feels like a step back in that sense.

Giles nearly dying became a running joke in the series, and by the end of it, I'm not sure if we're better off with Giles alive. His best post-S1/2 season is probably S6, where he's planning on leaving for half of it and deliberately absent for the other half. Said absence allows the season to flourish and the heart to grow fonder; I adore his reappearance in the finale. His S7 by comparison is really weak.

Personality-wise, Giles is hilarious when not being serious. He's got that dry, British humor and it's awesome. I love Giles's singing voice. His Ripper side - unleashed by the Band Candy - winds up being a lot less badass and a lot more entertaining than expected. While he can occasionally feel trite - when you're in a series as quippy as Buffy, you're inevitably gonna have a dead line or two - I think Giles's deadpan delivery helps to smoothen out the disruptive effect.

Overall: A consistent, steadying presence in a show that often doesn't need to be steadied.
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9. Wesley Wyndam-Price
Who? - Faith's Watcher-turned Rogue Demon Hunter-turned Angel's second-in-command

I'm gonna sound like a broken record here, but my favorite form of Wesley is probably his first - the sniveling ex-Head Boy. His transformation into a physical badass is kind of typical and straightforward; it's the prissiness, cowardice, and overconfidence that make him so delightful early on. He's got a giant crush on Cordelia; he botches things with Faith; he winds up getting rescued repeatedly by the Watcher he replaced; his title is consistently miscontrued as rogue-demon hunter instead of rogue demon-hunter. It's amazing.

Which isn't to say that he's not enjoyable to watch for most of the run of Angel, too. Season 1 Wesley, of course, shares much in common with the Wesley we see on Buffy, with the only hint of his future coming when Faith tortures him. When Wesley buddies up with Gunn, it's super-enjoyable. The two have several off-screen major battles while Angel divorces himself from his battle, and Angel feels locked out upon his return. However, this probably represents an inflection point for Wesley's character - Angel's return is met with a lot of angst over the new TRUE LEADER, and then of course that is thrown into conflict by the call from Pop, whom he naturally fails to impress. Wesley's last moments of levity are in the early parts of S3, where he and Gunn both crush on Fred. Before Gunn actually goes for Fred, it's adorable watching the duo's excitement.

But of course, all that shit accelerates fast. Gunn emerges with Fred on his arm, and the fun factor disappears from Wesley. His 'leadership' bubble pops when he betrays Angel in some truly terrible decision-making. Wesley stops smiling except around his ANGUISHED LOVE INTEREST, hanging out with Holtz's crew instead. The rift continues and he buries himself in the arms and vagina of femme fatale Lilah. He's GRITTY AS HELL MAN torturing Justine and finally VERY GRIM in beheading Lilah. Wesley in late S3 and pretty much all of S4 is pretty brutal to watch.

(But that misery provides one hilarious moment when Willow visits from Sunnydale. Wesley proclaims that he's been pretty dark lately, so Willow asks how so, before explaining her own journey to supervillain, flaying and apocalypse included. Wesley sounds slightly pathetic when he explains that his darkness consisted mainly of tying up a girl for a few months. The Angelus episodes are so good.)

One thing that disappoints me about Wesley is that his transformation seems to echo Whedon's hatred of high school, but also to affirm that glasses are uncool. The final Wesley is also mostly unrecognizable in terms of mannerisms, He doesn't just become tougher; he also loses his excitability and his vanity and his feminine side, and Whedon seems to consider this Wesley way cooler. The version of Wesley that works for Wolfram and Hart is excited by the knowledge, but he's suppressed his emotions so much that you don't even know what - whom - you're seeing on his face. It's a stony mask at this point, made even worse by the traumatic appearance of his 'father.' It's actually pretty damn comical that when finally he lets his guard down, that's when Illyria rushes in.

It's unfortuante that the grimness which permeates Wesley's character at the end of things makes him a downer on the screen. I can't help but feel like his scenes with Illyria had potential to be even better if both characters weren't gazing off into the abyss all the time and talking in monotones. But then, there's almost nothing left of Wesley at that point, and finally what's left of his soul vacates that already nearly empty shell. It's a beautiful ending to a character that was systematically torn down to nothing.
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A few random thoughts about ranking those four...

* Character development: Wesley > Gunn > Giles > Groo

* Average enjoyability: Groo > Gunn > Giles > Wesley

* Peak enjoyability: Giles > Groo > Wesley > Gunn

Ultimately, from a 'value-added' perspective, I think:

Wesley:
+ character development
+ amazing from B3 to the first half of A3
+ at points was interesting for his relationships with every character on angel (minus spike)
- love triangle is a cancer
- pretty much a drag for the last few seasons
- daddy issues are incredibly rote

Giles:
+ delivery of lines
+ hilarious when put out of his element - e.g. tablua rasa, band candy
+ good father figure to buffy
+ an 'original four' character
- kind of unnecessary in many seasons
- watcher's council drama is terrible

Gunn:
+ charismatic throughout the series
+ much needed lighthearted character during angsty times
+ amazing S5 arc
- Gunn episodes suck, especially early on
- kind of unnecessary plotwise

Groosalugg:
+ incredible whenever he's on screen, by far the highest average Q-rating of these four characters
- is a very minor character, gets swept aside as the ass end of a love triangle
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SeabassDebeste posted...

Care to take a guess at the last one?

Is it Dark Willow at #2 behind Faith as the obvious #1?

Because DW deserves it.
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More seriously, it could be Cassie?
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SeabassDebeste posted...

17. Lorne
Who? - the green demon, former Host of Caritas.

Alas, like so many other characters, Lorne kind of peaks with his first appearances. He's a nice supporting piece

Was there supposed to be more here?
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https://youtu.be/DnWkPh7uZiw?t=15m18s

This video somewhat explains why I love Wesley's arc so much. Spike and others are obviously more fun, but you can really see Wesley develop and change throughout the show.
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this is what i fucking get for writing everything out of order. lorne writeup tomorrow.
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So, actual top 8 predix:

Faith > Spike > Willow > Cordy > Buffy > Angel

with whoever the minor character is somewhere.

Top two are easy, Willow has what I consider the uniquestionably best character arc of anyone in the buffyverse, Cordy is amazing but let down by Angel S4 big time while the two leads have a lot of garbage dragging them down, because they're the leads.

...which means Angelus isn't getting his own ranking.
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Principal Flutie?

Really I don't see it, but he hasn't appeared.
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It's obviously buffybot

Oh, that's actually probably correct
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...yeah, that's it.
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Definitely buffybot.
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8. Buffy
Who? - the Vampire Slayer.

The show is called Buffy, and for better or for worse, the show's tone follows its treatment of its embattled protagonist. Buffy is witty, powerful, wise, and courageous. She's also obtuse, uncommunicative, self-doubting, and immature. She saves the world, learns lessons, and raises a family... and she also is incredibly frustrating and regresses and repeats her same mistakes.

The thing is, I'm almost never rooting particularly hard for Buffy. She's got plot armor (Glory, Ubervamp) and is often the stronger party in a fight (Angelus, Faith) or has an insurmountable edge in arms (The Mayor, Adam). It's almost always more interesting to see her struggle with that never-ending self-doubt or overconfidence, listen to her dialogue, commiserate with her situations or condemn her bossiness and whininess. Some of the fights are excellently choreographed - the one in the Season 3 opener, the epic catfight with Faith, the duel with Angelus, the showdown in the THUNDERDOME. ('Two men enter. One man leaves.') But when she's not fighting, she can often be so self-serious that it's agonizing to watch her.

Which isn't to say that she's not plenty awesome on her own, too. When she's not sulky or upset, her dialogue is almost invariably super-fun. Buffy is the quippiest character on a series full of snappy lines. She delivers them both flippantly and seriously; I tend to find that they're funniest during a fight scene (especially those miserably stunt-cut ones from Season 1) rather than when she's undermining Giles, where even when I'm intellectually nodding at the jokes, they just come off as 'blah blah blah, I'm not listening.'

I hate to say it (and spoil #7, which is pretty clear by now) - but you know what the definitive Buffy scenes are to me? The comedic ones where she's not quite herself. I laughed at her hapless maiden in the Halloween episode. She seems seriously perturbed in 'Once More With Feeling,' when she's forced into singing. And among my favorite Buffy 'appearances' is in 'Invisible Girl,' where she uses her invisibility to try to be unfettered. It's incredibly cruel what she does to the social worker, but the contrast that Buffy is allowed to have fun during such an angsty time is phenomenal.
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I feel like I could say so much more about Buffy, but it's impossible to summarize and articulate what is lovable and what isn't about her. Suffice it to say that she's an imperfect character and a perfect lead for this show. Why don't we just jump right into the season ranking for her?

7. S7 - I think this season explores some really fascinating material for Buffy. But it's also one of the biggest pains to watch - she takes almost every wrong lesson about leadership. Got some pretty great fights, though.

6. S5 - I love Dawn in the first half of S5, but sadly, her existence is a transparent ploy to min extra drama from Buffy's being a parent. The frequent hugs handed out this season between the Summers women wear thin. That said, the themes of Slayer mortality and the rescue of Dawn in 'The Gift' are wonderful.

5. S4 - Alienation and growing apart from your friends. It's incredible material for Buffy. S4's first episode is one of my favorites of the show's run, with Buffy first getting to college. The Riley relationship isn't great, but the stability in Buffy is actually kind of fun to watch in its own right, and it's interesting watching to her struggle with her identity in a world with the Initiative.

4. S3 - I don't think I'm spoiling much by saying that pitting Buffy against Faith is a surefire way to have me rooting against her for a season! The season begins quite poorly for Buffy with 'Anne,' a really dull episode that retreads 'When She Was Bad,' and 3x02 has that party where Buffy yet again has to confront her poor communication skills with her friends. There are certainly plenty of bright spots as with all early-season Buffy, though, given that she winds up not being so angsty afterward.

3. S1 - Now we're getting into the amazing seasons for Buffy. Before she has to brood quite as much, Buffy maintains a ton of her former ditzy cheerleader self, and that makes S1 unique, lighthearted, and an absolute blast. The quippiness usually is fun for its own sake without having to undermine more serious themes and can breathe on its own. The turn in 'Prophecy Girl' feels unique to Buffy at the time, since this is the first time she's died, first time she's had to confront her mortality, first time she's had to confront Xander for who he is. It's overall the lightest Buffy, and therefore probably the most fun.

2. S2 - Buffy versus Angelus makes this season for Buffy.

1. S6 - Despite its flaws (the relationship with Dawn is a drag during that season), S6 sees a massive spectrum of tribulations for Buffy which I won't get into here - paying rent, losing your father figure, friends continuing to drift and CRASH, coming back to fucking life, disillusionment and dissociation, unhealthy/abusive relationships, gaslighting. And the heroism she shows in the finale episodes going up against superjuiced Willow and fighting to save Dawn are amazing.
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7. Buffybot
Who? Buffy, but a robot.

'Say, you're quite pretty.'

Gay: 2001 -
'You're recently gay.'

I allude to this pretty clearly in the Buffy writeup, but it's not just Buffy herself who's more fun when she's 'not herself' - Sarah Michelle Gellar seems to have more fun as well. (You can also notice this with Jared Padalecki in later seasons of Supernatural, where he just doesn't give a shit as Sam anymore, but enjoys playing the role with a twist).

Buffybot is naive and basically a blank comedic slate. There's nothing she won't do, and in fact, pretty much nothing she doesn't do, for the team or for the sake of a joke.

What puts Buffybot above the Groosalugg? The fact that she's a robot, yet due to her mannerisms, she feels like she has a soul. The introduction to Season 6 mines a lot of drama from Buffybot's demise, and it's incredibly effective. This is a being that was born of extremely unsavory circumstances, was deactivated (and kept in a creepy basement!), ha sacrificed its life more than once already, and now has been essentially anchoring the Scoobies and the Sunnydale Defense Force for months. She's ripped apart by motorcycle demons in a truly gruesome manner... and all she manages to do to 'help' herself, after getting beaten up, is to call for Willow. The simplicity and plaintiveness with which she states that she needs to find Willow - heartbreaking.

The way that other characters react to the Buffybot is really telling, and it shows you how much she's needed. Buffybot's resemblance to the Slayer keeps the bad guys out via word of mouth, of course, but you can see the way Dawn actually looks up to Buffybot as a mother/sister. (Buffybot's success is at least partially responsible for Dawn's disgust with the inferior attempts of Buffy herself.) And Spike, of course, is disgusted by the creature that he wrought. She's done nothing to wrong him, but every time she reminds him that she isn't Buffy, it psychically jars him.

Buffybot is hardly a better developed character than Buffy, but her characterization is incredibly strong for a character so lacking in both screen time and moral quandary. I think her impact on the plot is big enough to justify ranking her higher than the Groosalugg and I'm not that ashamed of having her here.
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aww yeah knew it

hahahahahaah what a goddamn upset putting it above Buffy herself
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Yeah, Buffybot being this high looks weird in my rankings and I'm not sure if it's right! And hey, her half of the S6 premier was the amazing part. Once Buffy enters in 6x02... well, let's just let her describe it: 'The good guys aren't traditionally known for their communication skills.' Passing judgment on Buffy as a character feels like passing judgment on Buffy as a series, and I don't think that's unfair.

Now this part will sound flagrantly unfair as a ranking criterion, but it's easy to see Buffybot as an extension or a different side of Buffy, something she could be. It adds a ton to her that she's played by Buffy's actress.
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Ranking these next two characters together. Hard to decide which should be on top - both have major downs but go out on major highs.

6. Anya
Who? - the on-and-off vengeance demon who fucks Xander for a few years.

I have an extremely conflicted relationship with Anya. I had her as high as fourth on the list, yet I'm not even sure if she deserves to be in the top seven.

Early in the series, Anya is 'the funny, literal girl.' Her character doesn't particularly make a lot of sense (as she's hung around humans for a long time). Making things even worse is the fact that she attaches herself to Xander solely to give Xander some constant sex and to advance his character arc. Her possessiveness is cute, but every now and then we're distinctly reminded that she has no meaningful relationships with any other characters. There are clear hints that she does understand tact even when the writers pretend that she has no idea what it is, because her own feelings do get hurt.

It's even more brutal because Anya, just as transparently, is the replacement for Cordelia. She's hot and devoted to Xander. She speaks brutal truths with callous disregard for others' feelings. She doesn't particularly do anything unique and distinctly lacks a character arc. She's burdened with a really stupid 'fear' as a character quirk.

Season 5 sees Anya stepping out of the shadows a little. Working the magic shop at least gives her a second amusing quirk - a love for capitalism. It's played mostly as a joke at first, but as time passes, Anya is shown to be very capable - notably, she inspires the plan to defeat Glory. But it's still jarring every once in a while to be slammed with the reminder that her role is entirely subservient to Xander's at this point. It's fascinating that Anya has doubts about why people make fun of her, that she doesn't get along with Willow, that she fears mortality tremendously and is mostly amoral - but all of these pertain to her relationship with Xander. In particular, the mortality angle is first developed in the background of that (otherwise amazing) Xander-split episode.

Early on, Season 6 essentially has us stop pretending that Anya needs to be her own character. It gets developed as she assumes full responsibility of the Magic Box, but she's portrayed often as a Bridezilla. And that's fine - at least it's distinctly hers, and she owns it here.

Things really take off for Anya after Xander leaves her. It's unclear whether - or why - she's still on the show. The disgusting hookup with Spike - kind of a disaster for all parties involved - is a culmination of seemingly years of frustration blowing up. The breakup was only a month ago, but the phobia of commitment started all the way back in Season 4. The hookup is shameful, miserable, and - in fantastic contrivance - public. And from there, Anya... really blossoms. The company she keeps Giles in the finale is a wonderful soft touch to an otherwise fiery set of episodes, and the Season 7 arc.
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Anya is the highlight of Buffy Season 7 and I'm not sure it's particularly close. The flashback episode is both hilarious and incredibly informative, with what feels like a retcon that Anya was always weirdly literal, as opposed to having learned it from being separated from humanity. Additionally, her dependence on Xander to develop her personality retroactively is brilliant - Anya has literally always relied on external validation to give her identity. Viewed in a thousand-year scope, her devotion to Xander is just the latest, uncommonly heart-rending trend for her. The decision to give up her powers (and offer to die) to restore the lives of the frat brothers is the most important choice of her life, and it's one that she makes entirely of her own accord.

And from there, Anya becomes a heroine. She never fully understands humans, but she finds it her obligation to protect them. And she's just a joy to have on screen - she maintains her relationship with Giles, mends the wounds a little wiht Xander, develops nice rapport with Andrew of all people, and even builds bridges with Willow. The latter provides one of my favorite comedic moments of the season - though she swears that she doesn't want things to get sexy, after a little session 'casting spells' with Willow, Anya admits things did get a little sexy.

Death in war is often ugly, as Anya's is. She looks like a chump when she dies. But that ugly death is the ultimate proof of her heroism. Unforgettable character.
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5. Spike
Who? - the blond dude that you'd assume was the one with the name 'Angel' if you'd only seen the DVD cover of Angel.

Spike appears early in Season 2 of Buffy, and the first thing he promises is to bring the fun back. He's swaggering and British and hyped up to hell with having killed multiple Slayers before, he's ancient, he's got a weird girlfriend vampire to humanize him. And most importantly, he's the first villain - with all due respect to the Master - with as much charisma as the heroes of the story.

He also winds up being hilariously ineffective, quickly falling and becoming a villainous buttmonkey. Spike winds up being far more impetuous than ideal. In perhaps his most threatening moment, he gets punked by Joyce, and he refuses to attack during the (never again referenced) Full Moon Powers, instead choosing to do what feels right. In later seasons, he'll develop elaborate plans, often with serious cunning based on intimate psychological knowledge of his opponents... that collapse under even the most cursory examination. And the fact is, he often seems happy to skip that examination. He leads Angel into an awesome trap, then winds up having to face everyone else in a fight while Angel is invincible. He instigates the Yoko Effect... except that it's defeated by a simple moment of communication ('Hey, did you talk to Spike?') - and then he inevitably returns either to fighting or running off with his tail between his legs.

Season 5 Spike is at his most frustrating. He's too good not to have on the show, and too good not to have 'doing something' - so he starts crushing on Buffy. It's also kind of disappointing that Spike has such a high Slayer-kill count, considering that he doesn't really seem that strong. His relationship with Dawn is fun, but the puppy-dog eyes get boring really fast, and I hated the retcon that he was already obsessed with Buffy in Argentina. Season 6 finally puts Spike together with Buffy, and for a soulless dude to seek out a soul really doesn't make much sense here. Spike's arc in Season 7 is nominally interesting and I love his mother flashback, but the increased focus on his angst is disproportionate and to the show's massive detriment.

Spike flourishes in three general situations: reading people and being sentimental, being a buttmonkey and the victim of physical humor, and struggling with Angelus. His impotence when confined to a wheelchair is his best stretch of Buffy because it combines all three. He's jealous of Drusilla's affections; he's pathetically confined without his legs; and Angelus owns the screen time around him. Spike manages to overcome Angelus in the end... by outwitting him and going behind his back to Buffy. Episodes like 'Lovers Walk' and 'The Yoko Effect' emphasize Spike's being a physical victim (Spike catching fire while sleeping is a major highlight) while using his ability to pit others against each other.

And of course, there's Season 5 of Angel, where he exploits Angel's fragile ego, has to suffer being incorporeal, and struggles with dealing with Angel. It's by far the best Spike we've ever seen. Spike is taken less seriously, and as a result, and it manages to unveil things that all the drama of Season 7 couldn't. The way Spike acts as a soulless vampire has never really made sense, and he's never had to struggle to redeem himself the way Angelus did, despite reigning for even longer as a murderer. Episodes like the Slayer one and Lindsey's exploitation of Spike in general really enrich him. They articulate what separated Soulless Spike from Angelus - a less intellectual, carefree style versus Angelus's obsession with 'art' - and force him to confront his own monstrosity. A thoroughly unexpected yet incredibly necessary and welcome development.
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TIER 1
Spike A5
Anya B7

TIER 2
Spike B2
Spike B4
Anya B6

TIER 3
Anya B5
Spike B6
Anya B3

TIER 4
Anya B4
Spike B5
Spike B7
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God yeah Anya and Spike

I just realized I was supposed to give more on Lorne, but I'm not sure what I should say about him. He's a really nice supporting piece, but he never really rises much above that.
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I think Lorne fills a similar role on Angel's team to what Tara does on Buffy, so it's fitting that they're ranked next to each other. He has some really good moments as the team's outside supporter, especially in S3. He's also a lot more fun than Tara in general though, and he's also able to step out of the background a bit more. And I really like how his character arc is more subtle than most of the other main characters on Angel. He doesn't have some single plot device that suddenly triggers a major shift in his character, like Cordy's visions or Wes's betrayal or Gunn's brain upgrade, but he's still a very different guy in the finale from who he was when we first met him in S2.

Basically, I think you're selling him short. I think he might be my 2nd favorite member of Team Angel (after Angel himself).
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That's a reasonable take!

#4 should be up tomorrow. Hopefully #3 soon, too.
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4. Willow
Who? - Buffy's redheaded best friend.

Willow's an interesting case. Arguably she shouldn't be above Spike or Anya, because there are definite stretches where she's less interesting on screen than either, providing only a stabilizing presence for seasons at a time. Yet I also feel like she rank above everyone on this list, because her arc is that strong.

It is important to note that Willow is played by Alyson Hannigan, because to me, she's literally by far the most recognizable face. You can write off her feeling like a social outcast due to being funny-looking as a child and being friends iwth Xander, I suppose, but it's kind of preposterous that she'd ever be considered unattractive. (Cordelia should realistically view her as a threat/potential ally due to her looks, the way she attempts to acquire Buffy's allegiance.) Nonetheless, this is the character we have - someone desperate for validation and love. Despite her book-smarts, she falls for a literal internet demon (in one of the most hilariously dated, and thus one of my favorite, Season 1 episodes).

But yeah, I'm clearly talking about early-season Willow there. The show seems to realize how ridiculous it is to pretend that Willow and Xander are unattractive in Season 2, pairing them off relatively quickly into long-term, loving relationships. From there, Willow's self-confidence grows, the character ages, and she becomes less moe and a little less adorable - though she's still fantastic when she puffs herself up a little. As she grows into herself and gains confidence and powers, she falls more to the sidelines in terms of narrative focus and value to Buffy.

Willow: S1 > S6 > S7 > S2 > S3 > S4 > S5

As a character, Willow is all about identity. She's deeply insecure about what she is, and one of her defining characteristics is her tendency to latch onto sub-themes to define herself. She's Willow the Smart One and Willow the Computer Girl at first, Willow the Girl Who Likes Xander. But when Buffy appears, Willow finds herself contributing to the team with her computer skills and takes great pride in being a 'Slayer-ette.' She's one of the fondest adopters of the 'Scoobies' moniker, and she develops magic much so that she can contribute independently as a valuable fighter.

The fulfillment Willow finds as a fighter of the forces of evil eventually usurps her 'smart girl' and 'computer girl' identities, and thus she chooses to stay to Sunnydale for college. It's interesting that though the focus slips from Willow during Season 4 (except during those regrettable Oz departure episodes), but she undergoes a lot of self-actualization here. At the beginning of the season, her relationship with Buffy has already shifted - she's determined not to be uncool in college - and she redefines herself as gay (and, in the future, rejects men as acceptable for her) and as a witch.

Which is what makes her fight with Tara, before Glory mindrapes her, so compelling. Willow has so recently already been shaken by what happened to Joyce, and seemingly out of nowhere, Tara is now questioning what makes Willow 'Willow.' Sexuality and magic are so entangled here, and Season 6 both muddies the waters further and punishes Willow for muddying them. Riding high, Willow revives Buffy, tells Giles to back the fuck off, and then mind-rapes and physically rapes Tara. You can argue that Willow doesn't know the implication of what she's doing to Tara the first time, but after being confronted, she immediately tries to do it again.

What.
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It's a shame that a bunch of crap gets tossed in there linking magic to narcotic drug abuse, because it's the longest-building and strongest, scariest arc of the series. It's an insane buildup over the course of five seasons, and it feels entirely earned, so late into the game (after Buffy beats Glory and dies!) Dark Willow's dialogue articulates the inability that Willow felt to fit in without searching for external strength - and of course, it's only Xander's reminder that Willow always was someone that brings her down. Before the magic. Before being a lesbian. Before Oz, before Xander was interested in her. Before being smart at school, or helpful for Slaying, or clever with computers... before that, she was still a person, and a person who mattered.

Season 7 sees a rehabilitating Willow. She's been more than cut down back to size, and she's trying both to atone and to figure out who she is again. Gone is that smug self-assurance, and back is a more tentative manner. With Buffy taking center stage as a general, Willow's duties as best-friend right-hand girl are more needed than ever. Her mastery of Light Magic in the finale is amazingly triumphant. Oh, and her cameos on Angel reliably put that show's cast to shame.
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I always find it a little weird how many fans I know can never forgive Xander for leaving Anya at the altar but had no problem forgiving Willow for erasing Tara's memory/messing with her mind multiple times.
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