Board 8 > SeabassDebeste finishes Buffy the Vampire Slayer and its spinoff [spoilers]

(+) Yeah! (+)

I think Willow's actions are far worse, but it's easy to see why people feel the way you describe:

* Xander's actions lead to a relationship permanently ending. He's also the one who breaks it off. Tara eventually gets back with Willow, so that transgression is easily glossed over.

* Willow's brain is 'on magic,' so she has an excuse?

* Xander's actions lead to Anya crying. Tara doesn't cry over Willow; in fact, Willow is the one who cries much more about the relationship ending.

* Having magic powers/using magic powers to solve your issues is/feels awesome. That's something people want to identify with. People don't want to identify with being a fuckup with low self-esteem like Xander.

* Willow is adorable and soft-spoken, while Xander is a huge douchebag.
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People are definitely very particular about what bothers them and doesn't when morally judging characters in this show. Xander definitely really seems to get the raw end of the judgment of a lot of fans...which I think mostly is because he is just an immature, flawed typical teenage/young 20s guy.

Like, I can totally get people (such as the tc) not enjoying his character on the show as much as Willow, Spike, Buffy, Anya, Giles etc. because he doesn't really have as much of a story arc to go along with his growth. It is kind of just "immature teen -> immature adult -> more mature adult" but there isn't as much emphasis placed on dramatic or storyline reasons for his change, he just kind of grows up a bit naturally. So if you just don't like him, he isn't really adding much to the show for you. But man, some fans rag on him for things that are so much less bad than what other characters that they love do and its really weird.

Riley also seems to get this treatment. Spike, the vampire who has murdered hundreds of people and rapes the girl he says he loves, however, seems almost universally embraced. Willow, who manipulated her loved ones and literally tried to destroy the world, same. Basically, I think the fans get mad at the "regular" guys because they generally just don't like them for their personality or think they bring much to the show, so it angers them when they do disagreeable things far more then characters they enjoy and who make the show for them... doing dramatic character arcs where they do bad stuff but grow from it.

or maybe I have no idea what i'm talking about WHO KNOWS

Pretty insightful post. Boils down to, I think, people being more forgiving of characters they like.



A lot of why I dislike Xander has to do with the fact that he feels like wish fulfillment in a lot of situations, especially early in the game. Impossibly witty, gets to hang out with the Slayer (and never takes permanent damage until much later), gets the hottest girls (and has everyone woman in Sunnydale coming after him), gets free military knowledge, etc. Meanwhile, he's positioned as a loser.

I think I've been fairly consistent in disliking Xander, but never faulting him for his moral shortcomings (unless I felt the show inadequately portrayed that it was a moral shortcoming.)

Later seasons definitely stop handing Xander stuff and emphasizing that he has to work twice as hard for half the benefit. (Amy makes the same point about Willow's magicks in 'The Killer In Me.') He works his ass off to make the Anya relationship work, and his walk-away was among the best things he ever did, for me. (Maybe I just enjoy watching him suffer, but eh.) I mention it in Xander's writeup, but you have to admire the persistence with which Whedon handled him.

Tough to comment on other fans, since... well, I don't know many. Just this board, really. TVTropes is written by fans and I've scoured the Buffy pages, though the tone generally tries to be more authoritative rather than 'this is my opinion.'
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Yeah it really just comes down to if you like them then its fine. Its just one of those things that always stands out to me, about Season 6 especially since it seems like everyone does something bad.

And then you get something like the Spike rape thing where people who like him just blamed the writers instead (I am one of the people that does this).
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Xander never gets punished for leaving Anya at the altar, Willow does.

How exactly was he supposed to be punished for that?

And what was Willow's punishment? Tara dumped her (for awhile) and she had to ease down on the magic a bit around the others. That is the only punishment for the memory spells. Giles leaves but there was a good chance he would have done that anyway.

Meanwhile Xander also ends up single and heartbroken but he never gets his relationship back and is single the rest of the show.

Seems like he got a worse punishment for a much lesser crime.
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Tara broke up with her, then died right after they got back together, she became a dark sorceress and nearly destroyed the world, got oschterized from her friends and probably never recovered the closeness they had, got tortured by an invisible guy and she was "drugged" out of her gourd in the first place from magic. All of the magic stuff is one big punishment from beginning to end. "You should use your magic more responsibility! Oh you didn't? Oh."

I liked Xander best when he had his fears (the musical episode) but was willing to face his fears and be a better man than his father. But nope, he waited till the last minute, got all of her friends together and broke her heart because some random yahoo told him to, by his own will. And then nothing. He choose to break it off so him losing Anya and becoming single isn't a punishment like it was for Willow, it's what he wanted. And he has at least one date later in the show so he's not devoted to being single (especially not in the comics..). It seems like he doesn't care one bit. He's even back to browbeating Buffy about her relationships and acting all possessive over her like he does (gross) by the next episode I think. It's at least in the next few. Zero repercussions. Even his friends don't care all that much. They never even liked Anya.

PerfectChaosZ posted...

He choose to break it off so him losing Anya and becoming single isn't a punishment like it was for Willow, it's what he wanted.

That's super wrong. Even if he knew that's where that was going, he didn't actually want to lose Anya.

PerfectChaosZ posted...

It seems like he doesn't care one bit. He's even back to browbeating Buffy about her relationships and acting all possessive over her like he does (gross) by the next episode I think.

I, uh, what?
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It is absolutely punishment for Xander. He broke up with Anya because he was terrified that marrying her would ruin both of their lives. The consequences of giving in to his fear was the pain and heartbreak. That sounds like a punishment to me. And he clearly cares (maybe less so in the comics but I'd rather pretend Season 8 doesn't exist). The fact that he tries (and fails) to move on does not change the fact that he suffered for that decision. And its not like he intended to wait for the last minute to give in to his fears, he thought he would overcome it and be better. Then a demon made him live through his absolute worst nightmare of the future, which seemed all to realistic to him, and he couldn't overcome those fears any longer.

PerfectChaosZ posted...

Even his friends don't care all that much. They never even liked Anya.

They also don't care all that much about the memory rape. Buffy is hanging out with Willow the next episode and things are basically as they were before.

And they actually liked Tara, so its even worse that they just forgive it.
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muddersmilk posted...

And then you get something like the Spike rape thing where people who like him just blamed the writers instead (I am one of the people that does this).

I like Spike, and I don't think he needs to be excused for what he did. He's a soulless, impetuous monster. Buffy doesn't deserve for him to try to rape her by any means, but you mess with the vampire, you get the fangs. As she correctly determines, things are different once he has a soul.

PerfectChaosZ posted...

then died right after they got back together, she became a dark sorceress and nearly destroyed the world, got oschterized from her friends and probably never recovered the closeness they had, got tortured by an invisible guy and she was "drugged" out of her gourd in the first place from magic. All of the magic stuff is one big punishment from beginning to end. "You should use your magic more responsibility! Oh you didn't? Oh."

None of this is a punishment for what she did to Tara. It's just the effect of magic on Willow.

PerfectChaosZ posted...

I liked Xander best when he had his fears (the musical episode) but was willing to face his fears and be a better man than his father. But nope, he waited till the last minute, got all of her friends together and broke her heart because some random yahoo told him to, by his own will. And then nothing. He choose to break it off so him losing Anya and becoming single isn't a punishment like it was for Willow, it's what he wanted. And he has at least one date later in the show so he's not devoted to being single (especially not in the comics..). It seems like he doesn't care one bit. He's even back to browbeating Buffy about her relationships and acting all possessive over her like he does (gross) by the next episode I think. It's at least in the next few. Zero repercussions. Even his friends don't care all that much. They never even liked Anya.

Xander wasn't ready for marriage, and the demon showed that to him. He lost the love of his life (up to that point). He returns to creeping on Buffy afterward, but 1. that's something he's never completely stopped and 2. the fact that he does it worse there is a clear indication that he is suffering and is trying to redirect his own self-loathing and anger outward. It's a really shitty way with dealing with his grief, but it is grief.

Why does he someone else to punish him? He broke up a relationship because he didn't think it would work out. He didn't rape or violate anyone. It's one of the most relatable Xander moments.

kevwaffles posted...

I, uh, what?

Where he finds out about Buffy/Spike (after seeing Spike and Anya having sex on camera).
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I don't know why people expect everyone's friends to hate them after they do bad things. Much like how an audience tends to forgive the characters it likes more than those it doesn't, friends look past each others flaws and support each other. That part is 100% realistic.

Also probably worth noting that

1. Xander saves the world from Willow - and he saves Willow from herself in the process. Buffy was outright ready to kill Willow but got her ass handed to her. Forgiveness saved the day.

2. Season 6 is full of every character dealing with a fuckton of their own issues. They weren't the best of friends during that season. Season 7 sees the original Scoobies grow a little tighter again.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

Where he finds out about Buffy/Spike (after seeing Spike and Anya having sex on camera).

Oh, I'm gonna have to highly disagree with you guys on that being possessive. If he reacted similarly to random ass Joe McHuman (or, for example, Riley), then sure. But this is Spike. She vehemently rejected for a very long time and continued to do so while seeing him. Even without the whole soulless vampire thing, that's a pretty humiliating revelation to immediately tack on top of seeing him with Anya.

That said, I'm not saying his reaction was appropriate by any means, but I don't see it changing much even if you rewrite the show so he was never even attracted to her.
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rewatching the pilot, and xander's voice is so much deeper - part of why i liked him more, i think
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Great write up about Willow, though in spite of it all I think she's placed a bit too highly.

One thing though that stands out to me, and you've said this before, is the point about how Willow is way too hot to be a social outcast in high school. I don't think that's the case whatseover. It is clear that Alyson Hannigan was actually cute outside of being dressed up as Willow, but being attractive isn't all about bone structure or whatever other physical features that matter. Fashion and confidence factor HUGELY into attractiveness - both of which Willow was sorely lacking in high school. A big part of that is because of her status as an intelligent nerd - she was likely *convinced* she's a an unattractive reject by the bullies like Cordelia and Harmony, and resigned herself to being that way as puberty happened. Even on days when she felt like she was pretty, she was probably made fun of. So she just continued to be the mousy girl who dresses like a librarian.

This is a real thing that happens in real life. It's not strange at all.
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kevwaffles posted...

Oh, I'm gonna have to highly disagree with you guys on that being possessive. If he reacted similarly to random ass Joe McHuman (or, for example, Riley), then sure. But this is Spike. She vehemently rejected for a very long time and continued to do so while seeing him. Even without the whole soulless vampire thing, that's a pretty humiliating revelation to immediately tack on top of seeing him with Anya.

But that's the thing - there's nothing humiliating about it except for the fact that Xander has always been possessive about Buffy. The humiliation should come from Anya purely, since that's the only person Xander should feel any 'claim' toward. I think your explanation basically explains or even excuses his possessiveness as opposed to disproving it.

That said, I'm not saying his reaction was appropriate by any means, but I don't see it changing much even if you rewrite the show so he was never even attracted to her.

On the contrary, I think his reaction is extremely human and can actually be excused. Almost unbearable to watch and possessive, but extremely honest.

CoolCly posted...

Great write up about Willow, though in spite of it all I think she's placed a bit too highly.

One thing though that stands out to me, and you've said this before, is the point about how Willow is way too hot to be a social outcast in high school. I don't think that's the case whatseover. It is clear that Alyson Hannigan was actually cute outside of being dressed up as Willow, but being attractive isn't all about bone structure or whatever other physical features that matter. Fashion and confidence factor HUGELY into attractiveness - both of which Willow was sorely lacking in high school. A big part of that is because of her status as an intelligent nerd - she was likely *convinced* she's a an unattractive reject by the bullies like Cordelia and Harmony, and resigned herself to being that way as puberty happened. Even on days when she felt like she was pretty, she was probably made fun of. So she just continued to be the mousy girl who dresses like a librarian.

This is a real thing that happens in real life. It's not strange at all.

Where would you rank Willow, and which characters would you move around? Presumably Spike and Wesley go to the top? Willow is a really tough case. I think she could arguably be #1 - she's got a better character arc than anyone above her - and she could arguably be below Anya, Spike, or Buffy.

Could see Willow's self-esteem being low, but my point was more about her getting no male attention. At age sixteen, a hot/cute librarian type is gonna have neckbeard Reddit type people swarming her. (Willow isn't intimidating the way Cordelia is, or even a Faith would be.)

(edit) - to both, feel the need to specify that i'm obviously not invalidating your interpretation, just giving my viewpoint, obviously
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3. Faith
Who - the Slayer born after the death of Kendra, self-described as a "hot chick with superpowers."

In my opinion, Faith does for Season 3 of Buffy what Spike claims to do for Season 2: she makes things a lot more fun. It's kind of bizarre how ineffective Spike is during his eight or so episodes of being the Big Bad, whereas every time Faith is on screen, fireworks are guaranteed.

Buffy returning from her I-just-killed-my-ex phase is distinctly not fun. She's as mopey as she's ever been, and she's not receptive when her friends turn out not to be thrilled to have the Slayer back without the human behind her. Enter Faith - she's uncouth, violent, sexual... and she's fun, beginning to usurp Buffy's friends and even her mom. She also proves almost immediately to be dangerously psychologically unstable. You're drawn in to Faith right away due to her charisma, her way of talking, her admirable ignorance - and also acutely aware of the fact that she's just extreme in every degree. Buffy is known for being scared but putting up a brave front - but Faith is even more scared of Buffy despite putting on a braver front. Faith is a lot more violent than Buffy, but she's not as good at Slaying. She's drawn toward those who impose disciplined love upon her, but bristles with her real allies when she's betrayed.

You want to root for Faith. I never stopped rooting for Faith. But it becomes painstakingly clear that rooting for her to improve as a person and kick some ass is entirely distinct from rooting for her to succeed in her short-term goals. It's a delightful contradiction. Fortunately, it's wicked fun watching Faith fail. She's so much more guileless than she believes - it's kind of pathetic watching her get pulled in by Angel pretending to be soulless, but then, that's the power of confirmation bias and longing. Fortunately, she's delightful even when getting punked.

Faith is fantastic in the short stint she gets returning in B4/A1 and A4, too. It's yet another example of SMG's dominance playing anyone besides vanilla Buffy in later seasons. It's awesome watching Faith go from betrayed henchman-daughter to wounded freaking supervillain to confused acceptance to reluctant defender of good. Her identity only becomes more confused, and though she still instinctively sees Buffy as her enemy, her ass-kicking line to the vampire is one of the GOAT.

Faith (in Buffy): You're not gonna kill these people.
Vampire: Why not?
Faith: Because it's wrong.

In classic Buffyverse fashion, one good deed does not wash out the bad, and Faith subsequently escapes, bottoming out for real in L.A., and finally seeks help. She and Angel have such fiery chemistry that it's shocking how good the middle stretch of Angel Season 4 is.

Gonna end this writeup here. Faith has a lot of contradictions and reasonable depth, but she doesn't need a lot of explanation. She's five-by-five.
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2. Angel
Who? - Buffy's stalker.

Angelus is one of the GOAT revelations, and it's from just before he's unleashed that Angel starts coming into his own. I'm a sucker for a character who improves - not necessarily by character development (hey Anya S7!) but because of writing/acting improvement. You can really see David Boreanz grow into his role and the writers figuring him out through the first two seasons and even Season 3. He's kind of frustrating because of the circumstances of his curse, but the balance between perfect happiness and soullessness is phenomenal.

On that note, does Angel really need a writeup?

Loosely: Angelus B2 > Angelus A4 > A5 > A2 > A1 > A3 > B3 > A4 > B2 > B1
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1. Cordelia
Who? - Sunnydale's Rich Bitch, later the 'Heart' of Angel Investigations.

I mentioned this before, but to me, the defining Cordelia is the Cordelia from Season 1. She's vain, myopic, cruel, vapid, and shallow. She's also brave, intelligent, diligent, confident, and perceptive. And she's all of these things effortlessly. One of the most powerful things about Buffy Season 1 is that despite the low budget, corny visuals, and its characters enter the world fully formed. Even among them, Cordelia is unique because not only is she actualized by the show, she's self-actualized. Sure, she's insecure about things and concerned that others aren't taking her seriously due to her beauty. But she also knows exactly who she is already.

Pairing Cordy with Xander is the biggest disservice to her character from a development point of view. Late in S1 and early in S2, it's clear that Cordy's 'heart' is already rising versus her 'lip.' But once she's with Xander, that change drastically accelerates, and most of the edge comes off her. The self-loathing increases and the lashing out decreases and it's really not the same anymore. Granted, Cordy is still a joy to have on screen at that point. We begin to see her relying more on her astute powers of observation and grasp on human nature - along with seeing a devastating, unbridled enthusiasm about her relationship. The dramatic irony in her description of her past as 'B.X.' is adorable and heartbreaking.

The greatest contradiction with Cordelia is that when she leaves a show, it can flourish. In B3, Faith usurps her as the leading lady, and while B4 struggles in her absence, Anya and Spike wind up filling her role quite nicely - the quippiness and the blunt perceptiveness. In A4, as Cordy's role decreases, Fred ascends and becomes a major leading lady - and A5 again brings in Spike to replace her. It's weird and sad and I don't know what it says about my favorite character that her shows adapt to losing her so well.

B1 > B3 > B2 > A2 > A1 > A3 >>>>>>>>> A4
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Whew.

Some rankings, which may or may not be exactly the order in which I posted the list.

78. Kennedy
77. Rona
76. Amanda
75. Gavin
74. Hank Summers
73. Douchebag Watcher's Council Leader - Quentin
72. Ben
71. Linwood
70. Professor Walsh
69. Forrest
68. Robin
67. Principal Snyder
66. Anointed
65. Jasmine
64. Kendra
63. The First Slayer
62. Anne'
61. Justine
60. Connor
59. The First Evil
58. Adam
57. Parker
56. Caleb
55. The Beast
54. Holtz
53. Vi
52. Halfrek
51. D'Hoffryn
50. Virginia
49. Sunday
48. Nina
47. Gwen
46. Joyce
45. Jonathan
44. Doyle
43. Holland
42. Sahjahn
41. Xander
40. Ethan Rayne
39. Riley
38. Skip
37. Kate
36. Darla
35. Merl
34. Warren
33. Mr. Trick
32. The Master
31. Jenny Calendar
30. The Mayor
29. Lilah
28. Eve
27. Glory
26. Amy
25. Clem
24. Jinx
23. Hamilton
22. Lindsey
21. Andrew
20. Dawn
19. Drusilla
18. Tara
17. Illyria
16. Lorne
15. Harmony
14. Fred
13. Oz
12. Groosalugg
11. Gunn
10. Giles
9. Wesley
8. Buffy
7. Buffybot
6. Anya
5. Spike
4. Willow
3. Faith
2. Angel
1. Cordelia
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Two of my least favorite characters in the top three and Cordelia at number one? Sad times. Had fun reading! Thanks.

Wesley and Buffy too low but the list is fine I guess.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

Where would you rank Willow, and which characters would you move around? Presumably Spike and Wesley go to the top? Willow is a really tough case. I think she could arguably be #1 - she's got a better character arc than anyone above her - and she could arguably be below Anya, Spike, or Buffy.

Spike and Wesley are my top two no doubt. As for Willow, I love her, but... there are a lot of characters I think I'd put above her, including Xander and Giles. Maybe I'll do a ranking, though I doubt I'll do write ups. Except for Spike. I want to make a big post talking about Spike, whenever I get around to it.



"Growing into his role" feels like a great way of describing Angel. I don't feel like he actually *changed* that much, but just how comfortably Boreanaz plays Angel in the final season compared to the earlier ones on Buffy feels so right. Especially in his new role as "the executive boss".

Considering how much of a "man's man" Booth is in Bones, and how it seems like that's the character Boreanaz wants to be, I wonder how he looks back on Angel. Does he see it as fantasy silliness that he did to get his start or does he genuinely respect the character like it seemed like he did while playing it?



How fitting that as you finish this ranking, the 20th reunion thing with Entertainment Weekly happens.
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PerfectChaosZ posted...

Two of my least favorite characters in the top three and Cordelia at number one? Sad times. Had fun reading! Thanks.

It makes me sad that you hate Faith and Angel.

CoolCly posted...

How fitting that as you finish this ranking, the 20th reunion thing with Entertainment Weekly happens.

Ah yeah, I saw something about that! Should watch the video when I get a chance. I watched the Top 10 Buffyverse moments video that @RyoCaliente posted earlier with Wesley's death earlier this morning!.

RyoCaliente posted...

Wesley and Buffy too low but the list is fine I guess.

It's an interesting question how closely Buffy's likability correlates with the quality of the season. I have it pretty close, with one notable exception.

CoolCly posted...

"Growing into his role" feels like a great way of describing Angel. I don't feel like he actually *changed* that much, but just how comfortably Boreanaz plays Angel in the final season compared to the earlier ones on Buffy feels so right. Especially in his new role as "the executive boss".

Considering how much of a "man's man" Booth is in Bones, and how it seems like that's the character Boreanaz wants to be, I wonder how he looks back on Angel. Does he see it as fantasy silliness that he did to get his start or does he genuinely respect the character like it seemed like he did while playing it?

I've never seen Bones. I honestly didn't know that David Boreanz was in it, but now I'm interested. Have you watched it, and is there enough of an overarching storyline to engage me, or is it closer to House MD?

The writing changed along with the portrayal. Separating Buffy and Angel definitely forced him to come up with some of his own stuff. But yeah, it's noticeable how much deeper Angel tries to make his voice in the pilot episode of Buffy. IIRC, Season 2 has him acting generally much softer and more feminine with Buffy... which makes the twist all the more shocking, of course.

Angel's defining 'comic relief' feature is his vanity. It's mild in Buffy but starts to get played up a lot on his own show, where he names his company after himself and is super-concerned with image. It's a bit of the show become more self-aware with him. Every other character was basically fully fleshed out with their first appearance. On an in-universe note, it also makes sense since ensouled-Angel hasn't had a lot of direction in his life before getting contracted by the Whistler, and it's only after coming to L.A. that the whole 'vampire with a soul!' thing becomes a hot-stuff big she-bang.
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I hated Angel so much on Buffy that the sight of his voice (ironically enough, on the cover for Bones) makes me go bleh. I did never watch Angel the show, tho, because I was like 'why would I watch a show all about my least favorite Buffy character?'

I'd have been more likely to watch The Adventures of Oz the Werewolf. Hmm. I meant that as a joke but it actually sounds okay.

Season rankings! I'm pretty sure you guys can guess based on what I've said already, and the interest isn't that high, so I'll try to go quickly.

Holtz Stealin' Ya Baby Tier

12. Angel Season 4

Angel S4 is as bad as advertised. Connor-Cordelia is the Worst Ever. And sadly, in this season, both of their characters are outright bad at many points. Connor at least has a payoff to his story arc - that in no way justifies how bad his storyline is - and Jasmine is pretty meh. The Beast is intimidating but uninspiring, and his visual counterpart Skip's heel turn is very depressing. The attempt to retcon past events into fitting Jasmine's plan is... well, it's mega-cringeworthy. Let's leave it there. On side plots, Wesley's ANGST grows with Lilah and the love triangle is awful, and Gunn/Fred have a really awkward end to their relationship.

It'd be very easy to call this outright bad TV. But there are signs of life. Gwen is a shaky character who manages to fill the gaps nicely, and she gives Gunn some breathing room. You can acknowledge what the intent is for the Gunn/Fred breakup, and it's not bad. The Beast destroys Wolfram and Hart, giving the season a different tenor. (He also mercifully kills Gavin, which... I mean, yeah.) Fred has a bit of a coming out party. The endpoint for Connor is good, even if it means hitting a reset button - that entire season finale is really good; having Jasmine die in 4x21 is one of the hype-est moves that the season pulls, and it alone almost redeems the season. And the Lorne 'everyone's sixteen again!' episode is a really fun gimmick.

But I don't think any of that is pulling this season out of a truly shit tier without the (inexplicable) Angelus episodes. Now this setup is insanely imperfect - the contrivance for him to be summoned; the stereotypical Asian ninja-man - but the unleashing, plus everything to do with Angelus himself, is magnificent. Dude is vicious, going straight for the throat as he torments his teammates. Better yet, Faith gets involved, followed by Willow. Awful Cordelia aside, it's straight dynamite, one of the best 6-episode stretches of either show's run. So yeah. It's a bad season, but it's not awful TV.

Best episodes: 4x10-4x15 (the Angelus episodes), 4x22 (dead Lilah best Lilah)
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11. Angel Season 3

Too much Holtz, way too much Connor (and Angel being a father to Connor is one of his most boring roles), too much angsty Wesley, too much Justine, too much Darla overacting (Julie Benz is my boy, but some of that was really painful). Essentially, the season is built around characters who don't handle that much attention that well. I'd say 'too much Lilah,' but it's more of an issue of the show trying to bolster Lilah by giving her easy targets to knock down, which... ugh. I don't want to say there's too much Lorne, but he was probably better managing Caritas than living at the Hyperion. And of course: not enough Cordelia.

Plenty of solid stuff this season in spite of it. Gunn and Fred make a sweet couple, all things considered. Despite how much I've mocked his CONSTANT FROWNING, Wesley's inner struggles and particularly the consequences of his decisions are really interesting to follow here - it's great watching him getting his throat slashed, or Angel try to throttle him, or a giant freaking hamburger shitting on Wesley. I don't think much of Angel x Cordelia sheerly because it was flagrantly obvious it would never go anywhere, but the way that the birth of Connor affects Cordy and Angel's dynamic is quite sweet. It's a shame the Groosalugg is used solely to stoke the fires of a love triangle, because he's such a fun presence. Oh, and Fred joining the cast winds up paying off.

For the most part, the best stuff in Angel S3 is actually its one-offs - something you forget the show did.

Best episodes: 3x04 (Angel/creepy old dude body-swap), 3x05 (Fred's parents), 3x09 (Connor is born), 3x13 (the ballet), 3z14 (Groo makes Angel feel insecure), 3x17 (Sahjahn embodied), 3x22 (holy shit that ending).
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I agree with these rankings so far.
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muddersmilk posted...

I agree with these rankings so far.

Same, although since I would have Buffy Season 6 next I suspect that will end
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I would put B1 below A3. I'd think about putting B4 below it, but then I'd remember it has a bunch of good episodes in spite of its main overarching plot.

I can't imagine anyone not placing A4 dead last.
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Ubervamp Tier

10. Buffy Season 7

In many ways, S7 is an epilogue season, where everyone is kind of recovering - almost being reborn - from the shock of the events that ended S6. The identity crisis for Willow has mostly ended, and she's trying to rediscover herself. Xander is reestablishing himself after a nightmarish end to his relationship. Anya and Spike have literally been reborn as a vengeance demon and vampire with a soul, respectively. Giles reprises his old role, Dawn tries to reform herself into a normal kid, Andrew learns something about morality, and Faith somehow becomes a role model to younger women.

To that angle, S7 feels a little unnecessary. But I actually enjoy most those arcs of rehabilitation - Anya and Andrew being the top two characters of the season definitely comes unexpectedly. The bigger problem character-wise is the massive glut of new characters that contribute extremely little. I'm talking of course about Principal Robin Wood and the host of Potential Slayers. All of them feel interchangeable, and none of them has any particular chemistry with the main cast. The season's thematic focus is on leadership and succession. Slayer Lore is expanded upon, heirs are named, and Buffy struggles in the transition from soldier to general. Her tribulations are always a major source of the show's pathos, but Buffy herself is at easily her least likable here - it just feels repetitive at times, unfortunately.

Overall, I think S7 reuses a lot of the same structure that Seasons 3 and 5 do. The Big Bad is established very early on, with no particular twists. And at the end of the season, a straightforward, climactic battle that results in ridiculous collateral damage. Buffy spends the season alternately afraid of and puffing herself up for the task of taking on the Big Bad head-on. (You could even extend this to S1.) It's formulaic and... well, it's not that thrilling. The massive focus on Spike as the #2 character is a bit rough when he and Buffy have their worst relationship here. Giles also feels so far past his prime that it's a shame.

Which isn't to say that it's not still satisfying and fun. Season 7 begins with a return to Sunnydale High and includes several fun battles. Despite my complaints I really appreciate the way the series ends. It was always a show fearless of change and obliterating the status quo, and while the innovations S7 took didn't always resonate with me, I still respect the hell out of it for experimenting this much with a show that mature.

Favorite episodes: 7x03 (Willow and Buffy can't find one another), 7x05 (Anyaaaaa!), 7x06 (Conversations with Dead People), 7x08 (Andrew captured by Willow), 7x11 ('The Thunderdome'), 7x13 (Willow -> Warren), 7x16 (the Andrew documentary), 7x18 (return of Faith; Caleb delivers an ass-whooping), 7x21-22 (the finale).

Lot of good episodes for a season I ranked low!
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muddersmilk posted...

I agree with these rankings so far.

Good to hear!

Cybat posted...

Same, although since I would have Buffy Season 6 next I suspect that will end

Good call.

Speaking of, does anyone want to predict? I'm trying to be quick, but I inevitably wind up long-winded and sidetracked...

kevwaffles posted...

I would put B1 below A3. I'd think about putting B4 below it, but then I'd remember it has a bunch of good episodes in spite of its main overarching plot.

I can't imagine anyone not placing A4 dead last.

B1/B4 we'll address once we're there. A4 is a pretty good bet for last, though when I compare the six Angelus episodes to the six I picked for S3...
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SeabassDebeste posted...

though when I compare the six Angelus episodes to the six I picked for S3...

It says a lot about the season that one of the best stretch of episodes doesn't save it.

Having B7 as the lowest Buffy season is definitely acceptable. It certainly has its issues. The general "consensus" opinions as best as I can tell are that 1, 4, and 7 are the low tier seasons and 2, 3, and 5 are the high tier seasons, but the order within each of those is not super consistent. 6 is the one no one agrees on and falls anywhere depending on who you ask.
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kevwaffles posted...

It says a lot about the season that one of the best stretch of episodes doesn't save it.

Have you seen 24? The first four of Season 6...
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Shut up! I try everyday to repress 24 S6! They came in through the fucking sewers!
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epsidoes 1-4 and episode 17
thats all I want to remember from that season
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SeabassDebeste posted...

I've never seen Bones. I honestly didn't know that David Boreanz was in it, but now I'm interested. Have you watched it, and is there enough of an overarching storyline to engage me, or is it closer to House MD?

Yep, he's one of the two leads, FBI investigator and ex army sniper Seeley Booth, the buddycop to the show's star Bones, a scientist that specializes in human remains.

I think the show is a lot of fun, but i've watched comparatively little. It does develope its characters over the long haul but I don't think it really has any kind of overarching story. House is a very apt comparison, it's a lot like House in that regard. A lot of growth and development went into House and his colleagues, but was there really much of an overarching plot to that show? Not really.

That said, I haven't actually seen a lot of Bones. It's the kind of show I only ever caught whatever episodes were airing on TV.


If you'd like to watch an episode just to see what Boreanaz is like on the show, I highly recommend you do season 6 episode 19, which also functioned as a backdoor pilot for a series I DO highly recommend called The Finder. May that show rest in peace.
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9. Angel Season 1

Angel S1 is in a weird spot, because it's one of the most episodic seasons of them all - and it comes amid two highly serial Buffy seasons, B3 and B4. There's almost zero overarching storyline to discuss here. And as a result, you can have episodes of drastically varying quality - from the kid so evil the demon possessing him is disgusted, to the depths of a dude whose trick is dissembling himself. You get spectacular cameos from Buffy and Spike, a fucking terrible Bai Ling, and Kate, whose unevenness could be a metaphor for the show itself.

The brilliance of the episodic nature is that it's a wonderful hedge against the bad episodes. There's never a moment of doubt that the show can recover from 'She,' because once she's gone, she's gone. It's not like S4, where a bad turn of the plot means we're going to be inundated with awful fallout from it.

To me it's one of the better Angel seasons because none of the main cast is really unlikable, and that's actually pretty impressive when it comes down to it. There's not a ton of crossover angst, and the stakes generally feel lower. We're fleshing out the demonic city of Los Angeles and feeling out Angel's obvious homages to Batman; we're looking to pay the bills and find our way in life; we're discovering all sorts of good and bad demons. Angel S1 is the site of benevolent half-demon Doyle, a demonic fight club run by humans, a vampire from Angel's past, and a human who wants Angel to turn her into a vampire - going so far as to unleash Angelus! We come from an established universe, yet somehow, Angel S1 manages an incredible amount of world-building. It's a fantastic way to set the scene.

And of course, Faith appears in this season. I'll just leave it there.

Favorite episodes: 1x01 (Cordelia joins the party), 1x03 (Spike!), 1x06 (emotional Angel), 1x07 (Doyle's ex-wife's bachelor party), 1x08 (Buffy in L.A.), 1x09 (Doyle's sacrifice), 1x10 (Welcome Wesley!), 1x14 (the exorcism from the soulless boy), 1x16 (fight club), 1x17 (Angelus unleashed by an unsuspecting starlet), 1x18-19 (FAITH).
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8. Angel Season 2

Angel S2 feels like S1 was ironed out a little. It's a bit more consistent, and it understands its identity from the get-go.

We're given longer story arcs, the biggest of which focus on our broody hero himself. It's delightfully refreshing when he's thinking about 'her' and Cordelia complains that he's still not over Buffy... only to find out that he's talking about Darla. Darla does get a little too much focus early in the season in an obviously doomed effort (resulting in some really soap opera-y scenes). But when she goes down, she brings in freaking Drusilla, who's maniacally great here as she's always been. One of my favorite parts of the season is the flashback that we see first from Spike's POV and then from Angel's.

Angel's other primary singular relationship this season is with Lindsey - their homoerotic interaction becomes deeper and more intense throughout Lindsey's departure. He really comes into his own this season, and his exit is well-earned. Because of Angel's extremely busy plate, this season probably has the principal characters of the show firing at their best. Wesley and Gunn's bromance is excellent, and you can tell Cordelia gets a lot out of having to make do without their leader.

This season continues to build the world of Angel. There is some regrettable Gunn's past focus, but also we're introduced to the Host of Caritas at his crooning best, Merl the extortable demon, and alternate methods to reach the Powers That Be. Wesley gets a human girlfriend who shows us a whole different side of the human/demon relationship in L.A. Angel Investigations moves into the Hyperion, a logistically ridiculous move that nonetheless gives a sense of progress. We get a shaky Fred, and that ending Pylea arc is nuts.

There's something about Angel Season 2 that leaves me wanting just a little more. Or is it a little less? It was once said said about Wagner that he has amazing moments and unbearable quarter-hours. Human Darla explores fresh material for Angel and gives us some interesting lore - her seduction of him is mesmerizing - but in person she's always just a little too melodramatic, and you start to roll your eyes at Angel's obsession with her. Dark Angel is fantastic, but it feels like just a step too far when he lights Darla and Drusilla - two irredeemably evil vampires - on fire, and we're supposed to view it as his crossing a line, and Darla saying 'WHAT WAS THAT?' Pylea is an incredible, dark arc that mixes humor with horror like we've never seen - yet does it just go on one episode too long? The tonal dissonance is so strong that stretching it out as long as the show does may damage it a bit.

It feels contradictory, but there it is!

Favorite episodes: 2x02 (flashback ft. '50s Angel), 2x06 (Wesley pretends to be Angel), 2x07 (Darla's flashbacks) 2x09 (Angel undergoes trials, but Darla gets vamped by Drusilla), 2x10 (Darla and Drusilla devour Holland; Angel fires his staff), 2x15-16 (Holland's 'Home Office'/Angel hooks up with Darla and saves Kate), 2x17 (Cordy/Harmony), 2x21 (middle episode in Pylea).

Random note: I wrote that Wagner reference and then looked up 2x07 ('Darla') to verify that it was the Boxer Rebellion flashback. It has some of those majorly melodramatic Darla scenes, and in the Wiki notes: Composer Robert J. Kral says this is his favorite episode to have scored, as he was able to write several different themes for the character of Darla.[1] He was asked by director Tim Minear to write music that was "epochy. Something with horns...something Wagnerish." Feels weird but good man!

Another self-congratulatory note: I pointed out that Julie Benz clearly seems game for flashbacks. From Wiki, Actress Julie Benz says the flashback scenes are "the high points" of playing Darla; her favorite scene is the Boxer Rebellion.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

Favorite episodes: 2x02 (flashback ft. '50s Angel), 2x06 (Wesley pretends to be Angel), 2x07 (Darla's flashbacks) 2x09 (Angel undergoes trials, but Darla gets vamped by Drusilla), 2x10 (Darla and Drusilla devour Holland; Angel fires his staff), 2x15-16 (Holland's 'Home Office'/Angel hooks up with Darla and saves Kate), 2x17 (Cordy/Harmony), 2x21 (middle episode in Pylea).

...Needs more Dead End.

* Angel & Spike's rivalry is amazing, but Angel & Lindsey have a combative chemistry that is the closest thing to it across both shows (and really helps a lot later with Season 5). Their best episode is when they're working on the same case with and against each other.
* This episode coming immediately after Angel gets rid of Darla and the throwdown by Lindsey and his pickup truck.
* Lindsay singing is the best Caritas scene, though Mandy comes close.
* Evil Hand!
* Great sendoff for a great character, and great shift to Lilah going forward.
* Kill Kill Kill twist, and the body part harvesting
* Some really twisted visions for Cordy
* Did I mention Evil Hand? CHARLIE!


While I'm thinking about it, though I haven't seen any episodes in a while, I guarantee my ten most-rewatched episodes are:

Prophecy Girl (B1x12)
Passion (B2x17)
Restless (B4x22)
The Body (B5x16)
The Gift (B5x22)
Once More With Feeling (B6x06)
Hero (A1x09)
Five by Five (A1x18)
Dead End (A2x18)
You're Welcome (A5x12)
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You're not wrong! I think I also short-changed 'Happy Anniversary,' the one with the grad student who intentionally freezes time like a creeper to prevent his girlfriend from breaking up with him. Lots of funny stuff surrounding a really dark concept, along with his hilarious realization at the end of how dire the consequences could be (and how rape-y what he was doing was).
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Glory Tier

8. Buffy Season 5

Buffy S5 is perhaps the best season as a study of Buffy Summers. The show throws everything it can at its heroine, until she reaches her logical conclusion with 'The Gift.' Compare the girl who moaned that she was only sixteen and she didn't want to die to the one who sails through time and space as she falls. It's incredible.

This season really pulls out the stops for Buffy. She has to drop out of college because of her mom. A sister is literally manufactured out of her flesh and has to be protected from a God. Her boyfriend gets addicted and leaves her in the most heart-breaking way possible. Her mother, gets a brain aneurysm and dies. A soulless vampire claims to want in. An order of ancient knights wants to kill her sister. The Watcher's Council is bringing its powers to bear on her. Her Watcher himself wants to leave her. Best friends grow ever closer to their significant others. Slayer heritage calls.

And by the way, Buffy, you're facing your strongest enemy ever, and she's literally causing the town to go insane.

As I mentioned in Season 7, Season 5's plot arc is very direct. Contrived event happens so bad guy appears. We're told by ominous men and cryptic clues that something is wrong and that Buffy is at the center of it. We meet the Big Bad who is Very Strong. Buffy Is Worried About How To Beat Big Bad. Buffy Beats Big Bad In Climactic Battle. The execution is up and down here - the contrivance that leads to Dawn is terrible, Glory really does feel like she came out of nowhere (unlike the First or the Mayor), the Watcher's Council feels like a joke, and The Order just sucks.

On the other hand, Dawn herself winds up being a really interesting centerpiece for the season. She falls off in the second half a bit as the obvious repercussions of being an artificially created Key begin to take hold, but early on, she's energetic, bratty, and fun. Her mysterious existence realy on is also a massive source of intrigue. It's a bit brutal that she's so transparently introduced just to add angst/parenthood to Buffy's life responsibilities, though - it feels like less Buffy's organic, personal story at that point and more 'here's all the stuff you can possibly have to face, and we're gonna make our character take them on.'

Speaking of Dawn, this season is mixed on its side characters. On the plus side is Xander, who begins his rehabilitation, stabilizing his relationship with Anya and really taking it to the next level in maturity. Anya herself has her Olaf flashback, a delight, and works out some of her relationship issues with Willow. Oh, and he doesn't last long, but Riley's struggles with self-worth are actually pretty interesting. For negatives, Giles is fairly uninteresting this season, Willow/Tara's stability sadly sidelines them to some extent, and Spike getting a crush on Buffy leads to some good scenes but an unfortunate direction for him.

Best part about Glory: her sniveling henchmen. Worst part about Glory: Ben in a dress. Secretly fun part about the worst part: the mind-scrubbing effect Glory has on the humans.

Best episodes: 5x03 (split Xander), 5x04 (Riley super-soldier), 5x07 (Spike's past), 5x10 (Buffy and Riley split), 5x11 (Anya's ex Olaf), 5x13 (the Key is discovered), 5x15 (introduction to Warren), 5x16 (The Body), 5x18 (Buffybot), 5x20 (dumb as the Knights of Byzantium are, that is a RIDICULOUS fight), 5x22 (would rank here for the GOAT 'Previously on Buffy the Vampire Slayer,' but after this season, you can really see why it's 'The Gift' for Buffy here)
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Man I love Buffy season 5. It's like the tops for me. With all the build up to it, I'd have much rather seen the Watchers try and take Buffy down in Season 7 instead of the Season 7 we got.

S5 isn't tops for me due to the issues I mentioned, but it's really good and a tier above everything below it. Everything S5 and higher is incredible.
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Yay, someone else who can appreciate that Season 4 has a lot of good episodes even if the Adam stuff sucks.
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3, 4, and 5 are just the best seasons in my opinion. It's weird how the first and the last season are the worst.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer Tier

6. Buffy Season 4

S4, like almost every season in this tier, is a polarizing season for me.

It has problems, and even before the plot, those problems begin with its cast - Angel and Cordelia's departure leaves a giant, gaping hole in the show. Faith is gone, too. Oz isn't badly missed when he's gone, but it's made more noticeable because the episodes where he leaves suck really badly, and because it kind of compounds things. Riley and Adam make for bland motherfuckers, Anya's introduction is awkward and a little unwelcome, and Forrest and Professor Walsh flat out suck.

And that's not even getting into the story arc. Ever since Buffy blew up the Judge with a rocket launcher, it's been fairly clear that hokey religion and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster by your side. Season 3 confirmed that modern weaponry was the way to go for bigger forces, and Season 1 also clearly showed that the feds are aware of the supernatural. The thing is, I've never been really jazzed about these logistics - they clearly devalue the need for a Special Chosen Slayer - and Buffy herself in the early seasons sees no reason that Slaying can't incorporate technology.

... So why is this arc even remotely necessary? The themes of technology versus tradition fall completely flat, and the uncharismatic Walsh turns the first half of the plot into mush. Adam himself is incredibly intimidating, but he decides to waste his powers by hanging out in his lair instead of menacing society. The more interesting theme of conflict is that of freedom versus control, anarchy versus totalitarianism, the vigilante versus the army... except that once again, the awful characterization of Walsh and Forest absolutely ruin any nuance to it. Urk. (And then Seasons 5 and 7 completely discard technology again. Wut.)
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But as much as Season 4 has issues, it also is a massive success for the show in general. Spike joining is a huge get for the show, and his S4 incarnation plus Anya eventually make up for losing Cordy, Angel, and Oz. Character-wise, the biggest conflict Buffy faces is no longer with her becoming withdrawn. Unlike Seasons 2 and 3, Buffy begins this season on a happy note (with an unforgettable cold open of letting a vampire walk completely free). Here, Buffy faces alienation not because she's busy being too cool for school... but because she's now not cool enough for school.

Everything changes, and as the episode that revisits Sunnydale High drills in for good, you can never go back. Being in college is a terrifying time that has characteristics many experience in high school - caught between being an adult and still being a dependent, losing friends and struggling to make new ones. Things aren't going to be okay just because they always have been. And through it all, maybe it's realizing maybe you *don't* really matter. After all, the professor shits on her. The roommate invades her. Frat bros turn her into an idiot. A total jerk tricks her and hits it and quits it. Mommy basically skips town on Buffy, yanking that line of defense from her. And that is what makes the Initiative plot strong: the knowledge that Buffy might be Chosen, but she's not Special just because of that. It's re-emphasized with Faith, a reminder that there's more than one Slayer around; and with Jonathan, who literally creates a world where Buffy is subservient to an extra; and with Anya, who informs us there's a world with no Slayer - just shrimp.

On top of it all, everyone drifts apart, climaxing in 'The Yoko Factor.' Xander is no longer in school, so he spends his time with his new source of sex; Willow is somehow cooler than Buffy now and is discovering a new side of herself; a relatively stable Midwesterner is Buffy's new beau; Angel no longer has a place in Sunnydale. And Giles, Buffy's most notable father figure, is now a gentleman of leisure, turning his house into a sexpad and uncertain that he still needs to guide Buffy. Reconciliation shows that the gang isn't just going to break up, and indeed it's their alliance that takes down Adam - yet as 'Restless' reminds us... there's plenty of room for that to change. In many ways, Season 4 is the season where the show begins to change from a show about friendship and family to a show about loneliness and yearning. (Season 5 deepens some of this, but in some ways puts it on ice, which is why it's in a lower tier to me.)

Favorite episodes: 4x01 (Buffy's first days at college), 4x05 (Beer GOOD!), 4x09 (Willow's weird willpower spell, ft. Buffy X Spike years before it really happened), 4x10 (Hush!), 4x12 (Giles gets body-swapped into a demon), 4x15-16 (FAITH!!!!), 4x17 (Jonathan), 4x20 (The Yoko Factor), 4x21 (killing Adam), 4x22 (a quiet finale about what happens when you sleep on a couch while watching scary movies).
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(stake/jerking off gesture)
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did your GoT topic purge?????
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