Board 8 > Ace Attorney Discussion Topic, Part 3 - Eureka Edition

(+) Yeah! (+)

AJ 10 years ago feels wrong.

Pearl as a defendant with Athena defending her could be pretty good! Pearl always felt like the weakest of the main characters, both in personality and importance to me. I don't really think much of Pearl being there with Maya and Phoenix in 3-2...I kinda forgot she was even there.

I haven't played 3-2 in a while, so I can't say anything to the investigation, but a lot of what makes 3-2 good is the characters. Atmey and Ron are great one-case characters and then you got the introduction of Godot. The rest of the case has enough tricks like the first day, the swerve, and Atmey's last testimony to make it pretty great. Though, count me in on 3-2 Adrian detracting from 2-4 Adrian, especially 3-2 Day 2 Adrian.

then again, I also don't think much of unhappy defendants finally becoming happy. I mean, it's nice, but I wouldn't say it's anything special...!
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Mark me down as one as loving 3-2 investigation 1. One huge thing 3-2 has going for it is its absence of bad characters. I mean, Larry is kind of annoying, and... that's pretty much it.

Also, you'll presumably enjoy it much more if you enjoy Maya/Pearl as characters and not as vessels for a plot device.

As an aside, 3-2 might also have the best music of any non-AAI case.

(edit) I also enjoy 4-2 investigation 1.
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Well, I'm a sucker for the "when they smile" trope, although I feel like that's a recent thing for me. Vera does it at the end of 4-4, too, and I think it's a contributing factor to why I've warmed up to her my last couple of playthroughs. Lana Skye, too, although they really overplay it with her, so it's a little less effective.

But yeah, the characters are a big difference as to why 3-2 is so good and 4-2 kinda isn't. They might have vaguely similar concepts if you want to go that route, but the execution is vastly different. 2-3 and 3-5 both toy with the idea of a flying criminal (a fact that Franziska mentions in 3-5), but they're on opposite ends of the spectrum for most people because there's more to it than just playing with the same ideas.
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it's always girls! I want smiling Sorin or something.
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Side-note on 3-2's music: I really like the 3-2 intro music. I always felt like that was the more appropriate Mask*DeMasque song than Ron's theme!

Also, agreed on the girls smiling! how about a wocky smile
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Every time I see this topic in the first page I am reminded that we will not get another AA game for at least 2 years and I am sad
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Should've done it with Edgeworth after 1-4, honestly. Would've been super effective, I think.

fedorafreak posted...

how about a wocky smile

Wocky smiles plenty during the case!

You kinda get the equivalent with BIG WINS when he raises the eyebrows though!

Actually, you do get a "when he smiles" moment with Machi at the end of 4-3, but nobody cares about him enough for it to matter!
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Wait, does Damian Tenma give you a smile at the end of 5-2? I know Jinxie does.

Starbuck kind of gets that moment with the blastoff animation.
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Jinxie gets one, but not Damian. Also, Winfred's eyebrow raise is A+. Starbuck's confident poses in general are amazing and is probably the main reason why he isn't a bottom-tier defendant for me.
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Winfred is my favorite super-minor character in the series
I don't know how to define super-minor, but he is!
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I kinda like Starbuck, too. His animations really sell me on him, like the nervous animation where he acts like he's rapidly tapping on a panel and adjusting knobs on a spaceship.

also best Starbuck moment is when his sigh rubs off on Blackquill

Verbal tics rubbing off on other characters is one of my favorite AA shticks
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Hmm. I guess I would define super minor as one-case characters who don't have a role as murderer, defendant, victim, testifying witness, or super involved in the backstory (especially deceased characters). Let's see...

1-3: Penny Nichols
3-2: Desiree?
3-3: Bruto, Lisa
4-2: Plum, Winfred
E-3: Ernest
E-5: Palaeno
5-4/5-5: technically Aura but I'd say she plays enough of a role in the current situation (though not much of one in either murder)

you also have Hotti who is not one-case but is never important

EDIT: oh and I guess the bellboy in 1-2 doesn't actually testify, so he would be super-minor too
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4-4 Day 2 was bad enough that I didn't care about Vera smiling. 1-5's finale is actually some of its stronger material, but Lana personally is the absolute worst so that didn't do anything for me, either.

Enjoy it on Jinxie, though.
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I wouldn't even consider Bruto Cadaverini a super minor character because he's never seen and he's not a victim. Penny Nichols and Lisa Basil are the most minor OT characters because they never appear in court and have nothing to do with the case.

The Kitakis are the super minor characters in AJ. I guess Ernest Amano is super minor in AAI. He's part of the smuggling ring and the backstory to E1-3, but he doesn't do much other than try to obstruct the investigation. I guess maybe Palaeno, but I think he has a bit too much screentime to be super minor. Dunno if anyone in AAI2 qualifies. Maybe the closest is Jay Elbird.

Super minor characters in Dual Destinies are...Pearl and Klavier. Ahlbi and Bucky would be those guys in SoJ if they weren't defendants...!
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fedorafreak posted...

EDIT: oh and I guess the bellboy in 1-2 doesn't actually testify

He does testify though, and it ends up being a pretty important one! It's the first real "dramatic" cross-examination in the series.
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LeonhartFour posted...

fedorafreak posted...

EDIT: oh and I guess the bellboy in 1-2 doesn't actually testify

He does testify though, and it ends up being a pretty important one! It's the first real "dramatic" cross-examination in the series.

Is it actually a cross-examination though? I just figured it was a few statements. But yeah, I really liked that scene so I dunno if it makes him super minor or not.

I agree with your list, though.
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Yes, it is an actual cross-examination, but it's a "press every statement only to realize there isn't a contradiction" one. Then you get to ask "one more question" and you have to make him slip up about Redd White.
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fedorafreak posted...

Hmm. I guess I would define super minor as one-case characters who don't have a role as murderer, defendant, victim, testifying witness, or super involved in the backstory (especially deceased characters). Let's see...

1-3: Penny Nichols
3-2: Desiree?
3-3: Bruto, Lisa
4-2: Plum, Winfred
E-3: Ernest
E-5: Palaeno
5-4/5-5: technically Aura but I'd say she plays enough of a role in the current situation (though not much of one in either murder)

you also have Hotti who is not one-case but is never important

EDIT: oh and I guess the bellboy in 1-2 doesn't actually testify, so he would be super-minor too

So yeah Winfred it is
Palaeno is super cool too though
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zinc leblanc
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Leblanc testifies, I believe
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so does Ernest I think
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Zinc Leblanc definitely testifies. He even has a mini-breakdown animation!

I don't think Ernest Amano does though, but I guess I'll be able to confirm it one way or the other pretty soon!
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zinc is definitely in the super minor category though. he's the most forgettable guy in the series. Lisa Basil would win this except
she's notable for being unnotable!
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I wish Zinc Lablanc was forgettable. He's too awful to be forgettable. The most forgettable character is that Mask*DeMasque impostor in E1-5, but that might be cheating since he's a victim.

Penny Nichols is the "notably unnotable" character in Japan. Apparently the AA staff considered knowing Penny Nichols's name a sign of being a true fan...!

I guess what we need is another Sporcle quiz with literally all of the characters on it and we'll see who gets forgotten the most often...!
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those are out there!

I read a comment on my quiz saying that Amara should have been on it. if only they were here for that!
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Okay, with much effort I beat 1-1

I wonder if my average play time will end up being even lower than M&L Dream Team (which I believe was about 6 or 7 minutes due to constantly abusing saves to do the kill 10 enemies in a row without being damaged challenges)
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man that sounds dreadful
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Yep

And this could have all been avoided with the magic of soft resets...!

(Well, at least it would have sucked only half as much)
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LeonhartFour posted...

Penny Nichols is the "notably unnotable" character in Japan. Apparently the AA staff considered knowing Penny Nichols's name a sign of being a true fan...!

I hear that only a quarter of Ace Attorney players know her name.
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E1-2 Beginning complete! I think the airplane is a pretty neat investigation location. There's some pretty good optional dialogue, like the conversation about the international band the "Rocker Pals." Edgeworth contemplates asking Gumshoe about them since he doesn't know who they are, but he decides against it once he realizes how confusing the conversation would be. Edgeworth getting upset at the name iFly and the fact that nobody knows how to properly capitalize words anymore is excellent as well. Of course, the best one is...

Edgeworth: (These counter windows offer a glimpse of the sky, but the clouds, they tell me nothing.)
Rhoda: Mr. Edgeworth...? You...look like you're talking to the clouds.
Edgeworth: Is that so? Then tell me, what do you suppose I said to them?
Rhoda: I don't know, but it looked like a rather one-sided conversation.
Edgeworth: (The clouds...they tell me nothing.)

I think E1-2 might have the weakest case-exclusive cast in the series. Rhoda is inoffensive but boring (other than her hairdo, which I still haven't been able to discern what it's supposed to be). Meele is okay but still a low-tier killer (and her non-standard design bugs me). Akbey Hicks is a pretty forgettable victim. The aforementioned Lablanc is bottom tier. He does have one great line though, when Edgeworth asks him why he's so upset. "I am always upset! The only time when I am not upset is when I am holding a valuable art piece in my hands!" I can give him credit for being self-aware, at least!

The murder itself isn't very interesting either, I don't think, at least not until you get down to the cargo hold and find out how it really happened. It's kinda weak early on because you know virtually nothing, and so there's so little to go on or speculate about. It takes a while for it to get going, so this first section wasn't too great.

A few stats: Four total testimonies in this segment, two by Rhoda and two by Lablanc. They've done a good job of making you use almost all the evidence you have. I think there was only one I didn't end up using, so at least there's some variety in terms of contradictions and inconsistencies!
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I remember reading that E1-2 came about because they were like "What would be a cool place for a murder? An airplane?" and then made the case from there. It definitely feels like that was the case. E1-2 is basically the definition of an average Ace Attorney case. I still love certain parts of it like when Lablanc falls and Edgeworth pieces everything together with dat Announce the Truth playing.

Definitely agree with E1-2 being the weakest case-exclusive cast. E1-3 also has a preeeeetty weak cast, but I like Paups more than Rhoda.
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I like Lauren Paups probably more than I should, but she's better to me than anyone from E1-2. Plus, you get Shih-na, Lang, and Kay (although they're not exclusives, of course). Also, I love the amusement park as a setting. It's probably a large reason why E1-3 is my second favorite AAI1 case.
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I would put E1-3 as having the worst individual cast in a case. the Lance/Lauren/Ernest trio is brutal.
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of course, it's saved by it being the intro to Kay and Lang
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No AA game has a weaker cast than AAI, and it's not even close

Yeah, the AAI exclusive cast is definitely the weakest bunch in the series, and that's why it's down there near the bottom with AJ.

also I like Ernest Amano

dude's got some fantastic animations if nothing else
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I'm also in the Kay-hater camp so I think AAI is especially bad

AAI cast vs PLvPW cast, who you got
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SSBM_Guy posted...

AAI cast vs PLvPW cast, who you got

Some Guy, Jean, Darklaw, and Barnham are all pretty solid. If we're not counting the ones who show up in AAI2 (Kay, Lang, Badd), Layton/AA's got it beat with those four alone...!
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oh man

gotta be AAI if only because Layton doesn't really have much of anything. I guess you could say its main characters are good, but I'm already over them and I only played it a month ago. I doubt I could remember more than 5 or 6 characters' names in the game.
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Well, once you get past the ones who matter, Layton/AA's NPCs are bland and forgettable, but that's pretty typical for a Layton game because they require a bunch of glorified puzzle-givers.
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I wouldn't even count that. the real issue is the 'hang on!' aspect of those multi witness testimonies
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LvW's best characters (Greyerl, Barnham, Darklaw, Some Guy) are better than AAI's best, but all of the bit players in LvW's cast are largely throwaway Layton characters, which is annoying.

Layton games are fun but they just don't do bit characters well at all and that's AA's strong suit. But almost all of AAI's characters are pretty s***ty too. Recurring characters aside (Edgeworth, Gumshoe, etc obviously), the only characters in that game I like to any degree are Yew, Portsman, Palaeno, maybe Badd, maybe Lang. I think I'd actually take LvW.

Well, the fact that you have all the multi-witness testimonies definitely means it's harder for the NPCs to distinguish themselves. The Vigilantes in particular are just a bunch of interchangeable mooks and a girl.
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yeah I might go Layton too, but it's so ancillary to the AAverse that I find it hard to buy into them
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Well, it's probably not even canon, so yeah. There's really nowhere for it to fit in the Ace Attorney timeline, at least.

Did you ever do the Special Episodes?
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nah, haven't watched em either. Zelda!
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Let's see...

Great:

Lang (AAI)
Badd (AAI)
Branham (PL)
Kay (AAI)
Greyerl (PL)
Some Guy (PL)

Good:

Calisto (AAI)
Palaeno (AAI)
Portsman (AAI)
Darklaw (PL)

I think I gotta give it to AAI. Though, I do like the random Layton characters more than the average person here! They're not much other than comic relief, but they're enough to give laughs from me. The Vigilantes is definitely too much, though.
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They're pretty short, and I think they're fun. There's a lot of self-deprecating humor. Might be the best non-L-3 part of the game!
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I never ranked the L cases in the grand scheme. most of them would be pretty low for sure. not sure where to put 3.
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