Board 8 > Ace Attorney Discussion Topic, Part 4 - Dark Age of the Law Edition

(+) Yeah! (+)

Okay so it's 5-2 > 5-6 > 5-3 > 5-4 part 1 > 5-1 > 5-4 part 2 > 5-5, then

Oh god I'm now realizing that Phoenix went to Themis to talk about how he returned to the legal world by defending an orca in court

Yep, that's the DD timeline.

One of these days, I want to play through the series in timeline order. It'd be interesting.
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On my recent playthrough of DD I actually decided to play 5-6 after 5-3 and before 5-4, but I should have done it before 5-3, oh well. I kind of liked playing it in the middle before the big finale though.

So timeline order would look like...

(DGS)
(E2-3 flashbacks)
E1-4
3-4
3-1
1-1
1-2
1-3
1-4
1-5
2-2
2-1
2-3
2-4
3-2
3-3
3-5
E1-2
E1-3
E1-1
E1-5
E2-1
E2-2
E2-3
E2-4
E2-5
(4-0)
4-1
4-2
4-3
4-4
5-2
5-6
5-3
5-4 Trial Day 1
5-1
5-4 Investigation Day 1/Trial Day 2
5-5
6-1
6-2
6-3
6-4
6-5
6-6
(LvW never happened)

I'm not sure what you do with E2-3, maybe play the beginning part, and then the rest later (including the second Gregory segment, just for coherence and being not annoying to figure out a save situation with)? 4-0 is also tricky since it's in the middle of 4-4. And also I'm not 100% sure of if that took place after AAI2, but I'm assuming it does since Phoenix is probably still a lawyer during those games.

Also I haven't played DGS so don't tell me if there's some crazy spoiler where it's ALL IN THE FUTURE or something. And also obviously I don't know if any of those cases are out of order.

I think it's amusing that some games basically just happen in order (1, 4, 6, AAI2), but then some are all over the fucking place (3, 5, AAI1)

Seeing the timeline laid out reminds me that it's technically possible to headcanon Edgeworth's attitude in E1-4 if you figure that he gets scarred enough by the events of E1-4 that he regresses to how he is when he actually gets to court. It doesn't fix 1-5, but it's still a point in favor. But as we discussed before, flashback cases are always a little messy, almost by default.
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I kinda don't blame them for how Edgeworth kinda shifts in some of these cases, just because I think the way they want him to be perceived changes throughout. I wish they had had the balls to really make Edgeworth seem like a villain a little more, since it diminishes the value of his redemption when they don't, but oh well.

you should certainly blame them for wanting to change the way he's perceived, and for exactly the reason you stated!

it's kind of jarring to see that pre-1-5, they actually did have the gumption to handle villainous edgeworth, though - 3-4 edgeworth is one of the GOAT cameos. i'd love to get another flashback case with pre-phoenix edgeworth as the prosecutor
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it would certainly be better than something like a 6-6 where there's just no reason for this to have occurred. I think I've said this before - you have to really work at it to get Edgeworth involved in a case with Phoenix these days. it feels very forced.
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transience posted...

it would certainly be better than something like a 6-6 where there's just no reason for this to have occurred. I think I've said this before - you have to really work at it to get Edgeworth involved in a case with Phoenix these days. it feels very forced.

So I was kind of thinking about this the other day - I think it's interesting that, in a lot of ways, they were trying to make AA4 a 'clean break' from the previous games, with no Edgeworth, no Maya, etc - and then you have Phoenix in what seems to be a reduced/background role, but then he totally steals the spotlight later, and then 4-0 is stupid, so they completely failed at the clean break. And then I feel like they went 'okay, so people want more Edgeworth and shit', so they brought back Edgeworth. And they're KIND OF right about us wanting more Edgeworth, because his appearance in 5-5 is pretty cool and fun. But then it kind of made me realize, what would AA5 look like if Phoenix was still a hobo, Apollo is now mostly running the show with a little bit of mentoring, there's no Edgeworth but Athena/Blackquill etc are all there? I don't think the game actually changes that much. You could have had Apollo taking over all the cases and it still works, aside from some rewrites you'd have to do in 5-5 of course. But I think you would still have a really solid game. And you'd have Apollo and Blackquill as more steady rivals! That would be fun.

But then, interestingly enough, this would totally fuck up AA6, which needed Phoenix to be back to doing his thing to be what it was. And I wouldn't trade AA6 for this, because AA6 is really good. So it kind of all worked out? But it still sometimes makes me feel a little sad that after they tried to move on with AA4, they had to fall back on the original trilogy more with the future games. It's good in some ways, but 6-6 really shows the need for new blood in my opinion. You just kind of get the sense they can't keep doing it anymore.

I have a lot of feelings about AA5. Leon hates me for a lot of them. I consider it to be the least essential game in the entire mainline series, even more than AA4 which they've tried to write out of the fiction. it just doesn't do anything for the canon besides introduce Athena and Blackquill who are pretty much sidelined throughout AA6 anyway. Phoenix's role does nothing for the game other than remind people that Phoenix Wright is a cool dude and to give credibility to a series that badly needed it after AA4. that's not necessarily a bad thing but it's interesting to see just how little the events of AA5 matter to the whole thing.
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I do think that Phoenix's credibility being re-established was important going into AA6 - which is funny because that's really Apollo's game, but Phoenix is the boots on the ground in Khura'in that makes Apollo coming in for the cleanup possible, so yeah.

AA5 was a very important game because it was the one that convinced me that the series still had something to offer (although it did not convince me that the series was back. AA6, on the other hand, went a lot further towards this), but yeah, I guess it is sort of inessential? That seems a little unfair though because older games have had so many more opportunities to have callbacks to them, and if I was recommending people skipped any games in the series, I'd probably still tell them to forget about 4 before 5 (not that I would recommend skipping anyway of them). 4 introduces Apollo and Trucy and I guess has a couple of key plot points but wow I'm not really sure that game matters at all.

eh, I dunno. AA6 calls back to 4 more than it does 5, I think. Apollo and Trucy but also the Gramaryes. 6-2 is all a natural step from AA4, more or less, whereas what is there in AA6 that calls back to AA5? they don't mention anything from that game, I don't think. maybe something from 6-3? I don't think any new character returns besides Athena and... Gaspen Payne.
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anyway, I like AA5. it's better than 4. it's just interesting how throwaway -- sorry, standalone -- it is.
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transience posted...

eh, I dunno. AA6 calls back to 4 more than it does 5, I think. Apollo and Trucy but also the Gramaryes. 6-2 is all a natural step from AA4, more or less, whereas what is there in AA6 that calls back to AA5? they don't mention anything from that game, I don't think. maybe something from 6-3? I don't think any new character returns besides Athena and... Gaspen Payne.

Blackquill in 6-4. >.>
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yeah, and Blackquill
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I dunno, it might be too early to call AA5 standalone. AA6 calls back to AA4 more than AA5 did, for instance. AA7 could do a similar thing, especially if it focuses more on Athena or Blackquill.

Also, technically Jinxie shows up in Asinine Attorney episode 2, but I don't even count those as cases

Paratroopa1 posted...

I'm not sure what you do with E2-3, maybe play the beginning part, and then the rest later (including the second Gregory segment, just for coherence and being not annoying to figure out a save situation with)? 4-0 is also tricky since it's in the middle of 4-4. And also I'm not 100% sure of if that took place after AAI2, but I'm assuming it does since Phoenix is probably still a lawyer during those games.

I regard E2-3 and 4-0 as stories being told to Edgeworth and Apollo, respectively, so I wouldn't try to mix and match there because there's no feasible way to jump around in those cases.

transience posted...

I have a lot of feelings about AA5. Leon hates me for a lot of them.

That's an odd way of phrasing it! I certainly don't hate you for having a different opinion than me! I fully acknowledge that I love DD way more than most anyway (while simultaneously saying 5-6 is kinda overrated, but we'll tackle that over the next few days).

transience posted...

I consider it to be the least essential game in the entire mainline series, even more than AA4 which they've tried to write out of the fiction. it just doesn't do anything for the canon besides introduce Athena and Blackquill who are pretty much sidelined throughout AA6 anyway. Phoenix's role does nothing for the game other than remind people that Phoenix Wright is a cool dude and to give credibility to a series that badly needed it after AA4.

And that's exactly why it's the most essential game! Not in-series, of course, but it's arguably the most important post-PW1 game in the sense that the series is dead if it flops. DD plays it extremely safe and doesn't really rock the boat, canon-wise, but that's what it needed to do.

I think it's a little unfair to call DD inessential after only one sequel though. Heck, T&T's events have been largely ignored by the current timeline, for instance (much to my chagrin), other than Maya being the Master now, and it took five games (counting the Edgeworth ones) to acknowledge that much! It's largely the result of the massive timeskip, but still.

I feel like it's hard for SoJ to do a lot of callbacks to DD considering half the cases are set in Khura'in and 6-4 is this weird beast that defies all explanation (while being the biggest DD callback in SoJ). I wouldn't be surprised if we saw any of the 5-3 trio again at some point, especially since they're all getting into the legal profession. Plus, AA7 is completely wide open. There's no telling what they're going to do with it. If they keep it set in America with Phoenix and Athena, I imagine we'll get more continuity there.

Paratroopa1 posted...

4 introduces Apollo and Trucy and I guess has a couple of key plot points but wow I'm not really sure that game matters at all.

The problem with AJ is that its main plot was building up to the Jurist System and that arc has been completely aborted without so much as an explanation. There's not much else of significance left other than Apollo and Trucy being introduced and Phoenix's name being cleared to open the door for him to get his badge back in DD. I think DD's main job was to salvage and make the most of what worked in AJ and distance itself from what didn't. You can't just completely ignore AJ, after all. The game walked a fine line masterfully, and I will give it all the credit in the world for doing so, "essential" or not.
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Paratroopa1 posted...

But then it kind of made me realize, what would AA5 look like if Phoenix was still a hobo, Apollo is now mostly running the show with a little bit of mentoring, there's no Edgeworth but Athena/Blackquill etc are all there? I don't think the game actually changes that much. You could have had Apollo taking over all the cases and it still works, aside from some rewrites you'd have to do in 5-5 of course. But I think you would still have a really solid game. And you'd have Apollo and Blackquill as more steady rivals! That would be fun.

I feel like you probably could have largely done this without much noticeable difference outside of 5-5, because Phoenix doesn't really play a large role in 5-2 or 5-3. You could swap Apollo or Athena into the lead in 5-6 without any problems because it's very much a standalone case. It isn't an essential case for Phoenix. It's fanservice. You could have just left Athena in there for 5-1 without her freaking out or whatever. That was just an excuse to throw Phoenix in to kick the game off. I think it's a little less special if you drastically change 5-5 and rewrite Phoenix and Edgeworth out of it though. That's where DD would suffer the most.

But like you said, I think SoJ made Phoenix getting his badge back a necessity and validated their decision to do it because that game doesn't work without him.
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Para posted...

I really suspect here that "forced comments" is a too-literal translation of a slightly-hard-to-translate Japanese phrase - otherwise, this is a really nonsense conversation.

Yeah, basically. It's a phrase meaning "Forced myself to make a comment (i.e., to fill dead space in a conversation)."

Para posted

maybe you don't need to in Japanese but you do in English and that's a problem I have with translations sometimes.

Your guess is correct: Japanese does not mind repeating the exact same phrasing over and over again, while English hates it. There's also related issues where, in Japanese, you're allowed to explicitly state your emotions, while in English that makes the Robot Devil feel angry, but I digress.

The "comma, right?" pattern comes up becaues it's an easy way to handle the sentence-ending "ne," which is a wonderful word that doesn't exist in English.

As for when DGS takes place, it can take place no later than 1851, and no earlier than 1935. In other words, don't worry about it.
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dowolf posted...

Yeah, basically. It's a phrase meaning "Forced myself to make a comment (i.e., to fill dead space in a conversation)."

Interesting. I'm not even sure what the English equivalent of this would be - the concept of this makes sense to me, but the idea of ever calling it out as Edgeworth does seems like something that wouldn't normally be done in our culture, so I don't think that conversation can really be translated seamlessly without taking some liberties. They chose to just take the direct route, a choice I obviously disagree with.

The "comma, right?" pattern comes up becaues it's an easy way to handle the sentence-ending "ne," which is a wonderful word that doesn't exist in English.

Another problem I sometimes have in translations. If a word doesn't exist in our language, then I see that as carte blanche to rewrite it however would best fit, but some people don't see it that way and almost always go with the closest approximation, another decision that I disagree with.

As for when DGS takes place, it can take place no later than 1851, and no earlier than 1935. In other words, don't worry about it.

I think you meant that the other way around

AA3 might be even less consequential than AA5 if we talk solely plot implications. The protagonist of the game is dead and its two other main characters are introduced in that game and never again referenced (specifically, at least).
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AA3 changes everything though. it's less consequential because it ended everything. AA5 doesn't change anything.

Leon, I was just joking about you hating me! we're obviously bffs. we got that Phoenix and Edgeworth bromance going on
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Paratroopa1 posted...

As for when DGS takes place, it can take place no later than 1851, and no earlier than 1935. In other words, don't worry about it.

I think you meant that the other way around

Nope!
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dowolf posted...

Paratroopa1 posted...

As for when DGS takes place, it can take place no later than 1851, and no earlier than 1935. In other words, don't worry about it.

I think you meant that the other way around

Nope!

You're going to have to elaborate.
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I have to agree with Leon. I get tranny's point, but AA5 exists moreso for a meta reason than an in-universe reason. It was proof that Ace Attorney is back and regaining credibility, both among fans out-of-universe and for Phoenix in-universe. And if Athena becomes an Apollo-like figure and gets a game that cements her reputation, then DD becomes all the more important, since it provides all the basis we have on Athena. But if you break the games in terms of trilogy with PW1/2/3 for Phoenix and AJ/DD/SoJ for Apollo, then yeah, DD is easily the least consequential game.
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transcience posted...

AA3 changes everything though. it's less consequential because it ended everything. AA5 doesn't change anything.

does AA3 really change anything? it sends maya back to the mountains, but that's something that she basically does every game and it just happens to stick because of AA4 and 4-0.

AA5 is a weird one in that it establishes a new status quo. and mind, that status quo is pretty damn new - three defense attorneys under one roof, with edgeworth manning a stable of competent/non-evil prosecutors for a change. it also... sets blackquill free from prison?

Leon, I was just joking about you hating me! we're obviously bffs. we got that Phoenix and Edgeworth bromance going on

more like apollo/nahyuta tbqh
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LazyKenny posted...

You're going to have to elaborate.

(Minor actual DGS spoilers)

Off the top of my head, the game explicitly takes place before London's World Expo, which took place in 1851; the game takes place "some 40 years" after a certain tax was repealed, and that tax was repealed in 1851; a historical character shows up who, in real life, was in England from 1901 through 1903; multiple Sherlock Holmes books published through the 1920's are referenced; and there's a reference to technicolor technology in Japan, which did not make it to Japan until the mid-1930's.

In short, the game is an anachronistic hodgepodge, which is just the way I like it ^_^
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LazyKenny posted...

dowolf posted...

Paratroopa1 posted...

As for when DGS takes place, it can take place no later than 1851, and no earlier than 1935. In other words, don't worry about it.

I think you meant that the other way around

Nope!

You're going to have to elaborate.

dowolf can explain it better than I can, but without delving into specifics, DGS references actual historical people and events that did not coincide with one another, so you have this weird time paradox. You'd never notice if you don't know anything about that historical period, but yeah.

Oh darn, he ninja'd me!
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I was thinking that AA3 doesn't really change things as it does resolve plotlines from the previous AA games, but as I was typing it, I dunno if even that is true. What lingering plotlines were solved in AA3? Misty's disappearance? What Mia was like before 1-1? How Phoenix met Mia? You can argue "it resolves the Fey drama" but, honestly, AA3 is what made Fey drama big. 2-2 kinda hints to some larger Fey drama at works, but you could just argue that it was Morgan just being jealous of Maya and getting Pearl into power and leave it at that.

AA3 did a really good job of making it seem like it was part of the larger narrative of AA1/2/3 when it was really just a game that resolved its own issues that incorporated some parts of the past. Huh.
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DD establishes a new normal for the series, yeah, and it ended the dark age of the law, a.k.a. the mess AJ created for the series.

SeabassDebeste posted...

Leon, I was just joking about you hating me! we're obviously bffs. we got that Phoenix and Edgeworth bromance going on

more like apollo/nahyuta tbqh

Hey man we never let it go and move on
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But neither did Nahyuta. A dragon never yields!

I'm not sure if I somehow missed this connection, but man, Ga'ran is really Morgan Fey-esque, huh? I don't think I ever explicitly made that link, but that's probably how I knew exactly what the relationship between Ga'ran and Amara was - I'd already seen it before.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

I'm not sure if I somehow missed this connection, but man, Ga'ran is really Morgan Fey-esque, huh? I don't think I ever explicitly made that link, but that's probably how I knew exactly what the relationship between Ga'ran and Amara was - I'd already seen it before.

I noticed and pointed this out almost immediately!

unfortunately I also thought Misty was the killer but whatever
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Oh right, couple things I forgot to mention. If you present evidence to Apollo at the office, he'll get excited and think Phoenix wants him at the defense's bench, but he'll say he just wanted to know what he thought. Apollo's response is, "Oh, then you don't want to know what I think." He'll also talk about how much better Phoenix looks with the badge and the suit now, and maybe he'll start pulling his weight around the office now. Somehow, Phoenix's inner monologue is, "Hey now, it's not like I was a bum or anything!" Actually, Phoenix, you totally were.

Maybe the closest thing we get to an AAI reference in DD: One of Norma DePlume's books is entitled, "The Great Grief of the Great Thief." Could it be a book about Kay Faraday? Who knows! She'd love the publicity, no doubt!
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Oh hey they announced the release date of DGS2 during the Nintendo Direct today: August 3rd!

another game we'll never get
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i never went back after beginning the investigation in the office, but the way 5-6 treated apollo made me laugh

LeonhartFour posted...

unfortunately I also thought Misty was the killer but whatever

it was obvious ga'ran was the killer, but then they sell amara so hard that i actually was prepared to believe it... and then it was like 'psych! it was the obvious person all along!' what a weird emotional/undramatic snap-back.
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Here's the reason I thought Amara was the killer: I thought the picture Ahlbi showed was of Ga'ran, but she didn't look any different, so I thought the big twist would be that she didn't have any spiritual powers at all. But at the same time, it gave her an alibi for the crime, so it would've had to be Amara! I was half right but for the wrong reason!
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Anyway, 5-6 day 1 complete! Four testimonies in all: Two from DePlume (including a Mood Matrix with two contradictions), one from Marlon, and one from Sasha. Norma's testimonies feel like a warmup act, since her Mood Matrix is absurdly easy, but 5-6 doubles as a mini-tutorial case of sorts since you can play it right away, so they break you in slowly. Norma's damage animations being reminiscent of Marilyn Monroe are a bit unsettling and unwelcome, especially when all her buttons pop off at the end. I can agree heartily with Phoenix when he says that's one wardrobe malfunction he did not want to see.

Blackquill's pretty great here. I love the fact that he gets all defensive of Taka every time someone praises Orla (as an aside, I love that Taka laughs with Blackquill whenever he laughs). There's a great moment when Sasha talks about how Orla is smarter than the average whale, but Blackquill says that Taka is no slouch in the intelligence department. Out of nowhere, Athena chimes in that the ACTUAL smartest one of all is Widget, of course! In his mind, Phoenix says, "So am I expected to enter Trucy into this 'My kid is smarter than yours' fest?" So good.

Blackquill also makes effective use of his psychological manipulation, both on Phoenix and even the gallery. During DePlume's testimony, when she talks about the orca ramming the victim to death, he pounces on the shock and fear of everyone by going, "You fear the orca, don't you? I can't blame you. After all, they are deadly and violent creatures." When Phoenix tries to protest, Blackquill shoots back at him with, "What do you know about orcas? Next to nothing." As someone who knows a few things about orcas (I don't know if anyone used to converse with Mumei on AIM back in the day, but he was animal obsessed and orcas were his favorite animal, so he would rant to me about how awesome they were from time to time), Blackquill is totally right. Orcas are probably the baddest dudes in the ocean. You don't mess with those things. Now one that's been domesticated and trained might be a different story, but nevertheless, they're also one of the rare animals that doesn't fear humans.

Rimes takes the stand afterward, much to his displeasure, because he was afraid of what might happen to Sasha. Turns out his fears were well founded! His intro is great because he raps it all, and of course, the Judge is flabbergasted by it. "I didn't understand a word of that. Is this that 'flip-flop' that's so popular with kids nowadays?" The Judge being an ancient relic never gets old, ironically enough! Rimes also has one of the rare testimonies where the contradiction is in the first statement.

Thanks to Sasha's testimony, we're able to prove Orla's innocence, but it's too soon to celebrate, because Blackquill calls for Sasha's immediate arrest for the murder. Turns out he was setting us up for this all along! It's an excellent 3-2 callback and a great way to end the trial day.
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Blackquill in 5-6 is so underrated

LeonhartFour posted...

Phoenix says, "So am I expected to enter Trucy into this 'My kid is smarter than yours' fest?" So good.

yesss

LeonhartFour posted...

(I don't know if anyone used to converse with Mumei on AIM back in the day, but he was animal obsessed and orcas were his favorite animal, so he would rant to me about how awesome they were from time to time)

i remember golden eagles also being a very popular discussion topic
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Yes, that was also a frequent topic of conversation.
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Finished 2-4 investigation day 1

I really love the constantly changing image training dialogue for the guy in the background in the criminal affairs department. One of the ones here has him simulating gumshoe dying from a hangnail!
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Criminal Affairs guy is great, along with the Chief of Detectives.
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Yeah. The chief of detectives only changes his dialogue once per case (or maybe once per day?) though, whereas the criminal affairs guy changes it every time there's a new trigger in the CAD!
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oh hey I'm going to leave myself a note about it here so I don't forget

Once I finish up 5-6, in addition to the overall playtime, I'm going to list how long you play as each of the three lawyers. I'll do the same for SoJ, too. I guess I could go back and do that for T&T.
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LordoftheMorons posted...

Yeah. The chief of detectives only changes his dialogue once per case (or maybe once per day?) though, whereas the criminal affairs guy changes it every time there's a new trigger in the CAD!

Chief of Detectives changes every day, although there is one exception in 3-3 when the MC Bomber virus hits and his computer shuts down, which leaves him utterly despondent as to what to do with his life.
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T&T lawyer breakdown!

Phoenix Wright: 17:53:54
Mia Fey: 3:37:24
Miles Edgeworth: 3:33:19

Will Phoenix go over or under that number for DD? I think he'll go under in SoJ due to 6-5.
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I wonder if it's possible that Apollo will beat Phoenix in playtime in SoJ? I don't think he does but it might be close