Board 8 > Ace Attorney Discussion Topic, Part 5 - Let It Go and Move On Edition

(+) Yeah! (+)

we're scraping the bottom of the barrel with that stat!

hey, you timed your playthrough well with the contest starting up
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I'm too lazy to pick them out from the list as given but I wonder what the longest periods of time are for one of the attorneys not taking any cases? Phoenix took like 3 months off in between every AA2 case

transience posted...

we're scraping the bottom of the barrel with that stat!

hey, you timed your playthrough well with the contest starting up

It was more just a general curiosity thing than a stat! I get curious about weird things!

And yeah, I didn't plan it that way, but it all worked out somehow.
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are we to believe that there were literally zero cases inbetween?

cause, like, 1-5. I would actually be really fascinated if a game took place between, say, AA2 and AA3
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I have always believed that all of the cases that we see the characters take are all of the ones they take, period. Aside from the end of AA6, I can't recall ever seeing any suggestions that there are cases we don't see, and we frequently get confirmations that, yes, Phoenix really took no work for 3 months somehow but can still afford to live and rent an office.

Well, we know Phoenix didn't take any cases between 1-4 and 1-5 because he outright says so. Other than that, it's anybody's guess.

Paratroopa1 posted...

I'm too lazy to pick them out from the list as given but I wonder what the longest periods of time are for one of the attorneys not taking any cases? Phoenix took like 3 months off in between every AA2 case

JFA covers the longest span of time between its first and last case (9 months), which is odd considering it's tied with AJ for the fewest cases. Every other mainline game is around 5-7 months (if you don't count flashback cases).
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All right, 6-6 investigation day 2 complete! Another brisk day! I think I've figured out what bugs me about Ellen. She's so emotionally sensitive and unstable that Phoenix is on pins and needles around her the entire time. He brings up the possibility of Sorin being involved, and she freaks out so much that he basically has to investigate behind her back. I suppose I get why she'd react that way, but it prevents Phoenix from building any sort of rapport with her. I do like the conflict it creates going into the trial where Phoenix is trying to figure out what's the best thing for Ellen once Sorin becomes a prime suspect. He sort of defaults into 2-4 Edgeworth mode where finding the truth is more important than someone's feelings. Phoenix also defaults into saying "I'm just doing my job" a lot in 6-6 whenever he has to do something unpleasant, whether it's questioning Larry about the crime on day 1 or suspecting Sorin despite Ellen's protestations that she'd rather be found guilty than he take the fall for it. I guess it's a coping mechanism for Phoenix, but it's one he's never really used before, so it's interesting to me.

Investigating the hold with Maya is fun. It's a really good location, and they have some good exchanges, like Phoenix trying to keep Maya as far away from anything expensive and breakable after she broke that antique radio the day before. Maya also starts up the lift before Phoenix can get on it, which enables him to discover the trail of blood running down the side. I like the way they did that, actually. They try to go up to the vista deck, but Phoenix gets so scared that they go right back down. Come on, man! I'm not good with heights either, but that deck is pretty huge! You had plenty of space to move around without getting close to the edge!

We go to visit Sorin, who gives his first indication of his "50 First Dates Syndrome," because he flips through his journal a bunch before recognizing Phoenix as Ellen's lawyer. He also doesn't seem to know anything about the cover-up or why they held two receptions despite Pierce saying it was his idea in the first place. Then the first big suspicion against Sorin arises when he passes out after a wound in his stomach opens up and starts bleeding. Phoenix puts two and two together after finding the candelabra with blood and Gloomsbury's fingerprints all over it. He also flips through Sorin's notebook to discover that he started taking meticulous notes of his daily activities after Selena's car accident. Gloomsbury was supposedly driving that night (not Mimi this time), which gives Sorin a motive to want him dead (until you find out he actually asked for Gloomsbury to stay on the staff afterward anyway). Maya tries to yank it away from Phoenix to read it herself and the pages from the day of the murder conveniently and aptly fall into the pool of Sorin's blood, making them impossible to read. Whoops! Comes with the territory with Maya around!

Next up is Pierce, who tells us about Sorin and Selena's car accident. Somehow, no Psyche-Lock appears when he gets evasive about what happened to Selena's surgeon fiance after her death, but one does pop up when he tries to hide the fact that Sorin was stabbed by Gloomsbury on the vista deck (something we pretty much already knew)! Go figure. The Magatama continues to be rather finicky!
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Maya has some pretty interesting and surprisingly mature things to say during the course of this investigation, including some new dialogue I hadn't triggered before! If you talk to her at the office after you speak with Pierce, Phoenix will express his frustration about how hard it's been to find the truth in this case. Maya reminds him that finding the truth has NEVER been easy for them, so he just needs to do what he does best and bluff until he gets there! In his mind, Phoenix says that bluffing is supposed to be his LAST resort. Phoenix will also make an unintentional pun if you present the lift to Maya, where he says, "I can't believe someone tried to kill Ellen on what was supposed to be such an uplifting day." Maya calls him out on it, thinking it was an inappropriate pun and he did it on purpose. He has to circle back around to realize what he said and admit he didn't do it on purpose.

When you get back to the reception hall, we find Ema's...Gumshoe-esque repair job of the broken lantern where the body was found and makes an easy-to-spot error that will surely be the key to the case in the trial! She really is his spiritual successor here! At this point, Phoenix and Maya mull over how bad everything seems to be looking for Ellen and Sorin, and they wonder if their relationship will survive this. Phoenix wonders if he's really acting in Ellen's best interests, but Maya assures him that he is. She doesn't think Ellen can truly be happy without knowing the truth. Phoenix marvels at how wise Maya sounded just then. She really does do a good job of being this weird Mia/Maya hybrid in 6-6, especially on the second day. I really appreciate what she brings to the table in this case, and that's why I guess I regard it more highly than most. Maya's my #3 character for a reason!
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6-6 is better for Ellen's outbursts. it gives you a reason to consider Sorin and his actions. her absolute persistence goes beyond what most clients give you when there's a sensitive spot. I don't mind that at all.

you get way too rose tinted about Maya and investigations in 6-6. not gonna discuss beyond that, but it needed to be said!
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6-6 might be better for it, but Ellen isn't a better character for it.

and me be a fanboy about Maya and Ace Attorney in general surely you jest

(it didn't really need to be said)
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I really just never bought into any aspect of 6-6. I don't know if high expectations based on either 5-6 or what a Phoenix/Maya/Edgeworth reunion should look like were holding me back, but I don't think I've cared less about a pair of AA characters than Ellen and Sorin. (Maybe Espella)

I like the three new characters that 6-6 brings but I don't think they really enhance the case that much. 6-6 is just the ultimate vanilla case. it feels like a fodder line between good cases and tutorial/bad cases.
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I didn't really like Sorin at first, but I think he's pretty good in trial day 2.

High expectations hurt 6-6 for me the first time, at least in terms of the scale of the case, but replays make it easier to temper those expectations and appreciate the good things the case has to offer because the classic characters are still pretty great!
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see, I don't think that's actually true. this might be Edgeworth's worst case with Phoenix in it? it's all predicated on nostalgia. time traveler indeed.
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Worse than 1-2?

And I'm fine with a case entirely built on fanservice and nostalgia! Pretty sure I've been saying that the whole time!
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1-2 is a seminal case of his. Edgeworth dropping that second autopsy report feels more substantial than anything he does in 6-6.

totally fine that you like it - just giving my own!
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Nah, Edgeworth doesn't have any big case-breaking moments, but I don't really mind it. I don't regard him as the holy grail of the series that you do! I don't really think anything in the series is too sacred to only be reserved for the very best cases.

speaking of the second autopsy report there was a great meme on the AA fan page the other day

https://www.facebook.com/aceattorney/photos/a.420149494766445.1073741830.410567109058017/1320570444724341/?type=3&theater

man Facebook links are so awkward looking
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Here's something I've always wondered. Is the second autopsy report supposed to have been rigged in some way? If it is accurate, it doesn't seem too different from any other piece of evidence that is withheld until the trial is underway.
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The game seems to imply that it's dirty evidence, and that's the way I've always taken it. Edgeworth realized the problem with the case if Mia died instantly (she couldn't have written Maya's name on the receipt), so he had the report altered to allow for that possibility, with purposely vague language like, "may have lived for several minutes" instead of making a definite statement.
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I think it's intentionally vague. Leon will lambast this, but 1-5 seems to suggest that Edgeworth was never the guy.
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yeah which is the worst thing 1-5 and E1-4 by extension introduced

even if you want to believe he was always clean at least keep it ambiguous

Edgeworth plays very dirty in 3-4
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best to pretend that 1-5 and AA4 didn't really happen, except to the extent that they introduced characters who are important

the fact that phoenix spent seven years unable to practice law is basically irrelevant in any canon-affecting case afterward, the gramaryes' being evil is skipped in 6-2, and there's been no development on apollo/trucy's being siblings or the jurist system. gant/marshall/starr/lana/evidence law never return. ema never even references her sister (and until i mentioned lana, i'd completely forgotten that was how ema was related to the case)

so if you don't like phoenix rigging a jury or edgeworth being a good guy all along, let's all agree to enjoy the cases but excise them from the canon!
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And then AA7 resolves the Apollo/Trucy sibling plotline and we have to start acknowledging AA4 again.
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eh, none of the events of AA4 are really predicated on the pair being a sibling. AA6's only nod toward it was a super-weird shipping moment by dhurke that we should probably pretend never happened anyway. the only point of interest in AA4 about the siblings is that trucy has a version of the perceive that doesn't get enhanced since apollo's the one with the bracelet
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Phoenix literally talks to Thalassa in SoJ's ending, saying it's about time they told them the truth.

"Ignoring stuff I don't like" isn't a personal philosophy I'll ever follow anyway.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

ema never even references her sister (and until i mentioned lana, i'd completely forgotten that was how ema was related to the case)

Edgeworth references Lana in E1-3

Lots of stuff never gets referenced again after the case it takes place in (although 1-5 is probably one of the most directly or indirectly referenced cases in the series, for what it's worth. It's pretty much the only case AJ deigns to reference). It's just part of the standalone nature of the cases and the series. They're all interconnected clearly yet loosely at the same time. I've never fancied myself to be the arbiter of the canon in a given series. I take the good with the bad, whether I like it or I don't. For instance, if--heaven forbid--they eventually decide to pair Phoenix and Maya up romantically, I would begrudgingly accept it, despite feeling like Iris had been ROBBED. I don't feel like I get to decide what's canon and what's not. The writers do.

The only exception is stuff like Mass Effect that doesn't have a clear canon because there are so many permutations when it comes to choices. I have a certain way I like to play in games like that, but I don't really get adamant about certain choices being "right" at the same time. I'll usually play multiple times just to see as much dialogue and as many plot branches as possible, actually.
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I mean, AA4 is more tongue-in-cheek (and the fact that Apollo/Trucy are siblings is pretty much a non-factor in that game - everything about it has been tossed in randomly at the end of 4-4 and 6-5) - but as you pointed out, cases like 1-5 actively disrupt the canon (and it's not surprising that it does, since it was created after the fact). So you can either accept that 1-2/1-3/1-4/2-4 lied to you about Edgeworth's character development, or recognize that 1-5 doesn't fit. Either way, the series forces the choice.
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1-2 really seems to me the only case that actually tries to sell Edgeworth as a dirty cheater. Over time it's become the case that actually feels the most out of place!

1-4, 2-4, and 3-4 all emphasize that Edgeworth was really Von Karma's disciple. Part of why 1-3's turn is so great is precisely because Edgeworth finds himself valuing truth over victory.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

but as you pointed out, cases like 1-5 actively disrupt the canon (and it's not surprising that it does, since it was created after the fact). So you can either accept that 1-2/1-3/1-4/2-4 lied to you about Edgeworth's character development, or recognize that 1-5 doesn't fit. Either way, the series forces the choice.

1-5 bothers me because it creates a character inconsistency, and it's why I'll never truly be able to enjoy E1-4 all that much, but I'll still acknowledge those cases happened, despite my issues with them. I don't think the events themselves disrupt much of anything. It just creates a contradiction in Edgeworth's development, which is problematic.

Paratroopa1 posted...

1-2 really seems to me the only case that actually tries to sell Edgeworth as a dirty cheater. Over time it's become the case that actually feels the most out of place!

Eh, as I said before, Edgeworth is very dirty in 3-4. He ceases to be a bad guy after 1-2 (he's conflicted during 1-3), so it's no wonder it would feel out of place compared to the other cases anyway. Plus, I think the Face Turn in 1-3 and his character development in 2-4 are much more meaningful if it actually is, well, a Face Turn, instead of him being misguided and/or misunderstood. His confession in 2-4 seems to imply he didn't always play by the rules, too. And he does say in 1-2 that he will do ANYTHING to get his guilty verdict. Anything. He doesn't put any caveats on that until 1-5.
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Part of the thing with 1-3 is that he spends most of his time getting clowned by witnesses anyway

what's so dirty about 3-4? you talk like it was super devious. he has a couple of tricks up his sleeve but it's not dirty per se. I think of that as hiding a witness or telling them what to say.
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Yeah I just played 3-4 a few weeks ago and I don't recall Edgeworth doing anything that was super underhanded

Yeah, all three days have a witness that has his number something fierce. Gumshoe does talk to you about Edgeworth being perturbed during one of the investigation days though, and it's kinda clear from his demeanor that he's not himself. There's a reason why Phoenix is so shocked when Edgeworth helps him!
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transience posted...

what's so dirty about 3-4? you talk like it was super devious. he has a couple of tricks up his sleeve but it's not dirty per se. I think of that as hiding a witness or telling them what to say.

You mean like knowing "Melissa Foster" was Dahlia Hawthorne the whole time?

yeah

and he tries to prevent her from testifying as much as possible until Mia forces his hand

heck Mia even comments on his dirty tactics a few times!
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Anyway, 6-6 is complete! Four testimonies again: Two by Sorin and two by Pierce. The final piece of evidence is the wedding photo so you can prove that Pierce could have killed Gloomsbury under the cover of fog. There must have been some insanely loud music blaring at the time, I guess, because you'd think hitting him with that Time Keeper or him screaming would be heard by someone!

I like Sorin's testimonies here, and they make me come around on him quite a bit. That image of him creeping along the outside wall despite having been stabbed in the gut is super hardcore! I love that Phoenix presents "the power of love" as his reason for believing it was possible, and the Judge buys it! Poor Edgeworth is left with no recourse but to lament about how unscientific all this is. Come on, man! You've been involved in this series long enough to know science isn't the only "force" in Ace Attorney! Heck, you've used the Magatama! I also love later on in the trial when Pierce confirms Sorin did indeed creep along the outside wall, and Edgeworth is stunned and says, "You mean Mr. Wright's addlepated guess was correct?!"

We eventually have to deduce that the airship was moored to the ground instead of flying by showing that Larry's dinosaur was just a broken piece of a sign being tossed about by the wind. Easily the most disappointing "twist" by a Larry picture to date, but oh well! He is disappointed that his picture turns out to be something completely different yet again, and Phoenix actually feels a little bad for him. He knows this is just who he is, so he doesn't blame him for making a mistake. Speaking of Larry, there was a cool exchange yesterday I forgot to mention. Phoenix talks about how he wishes Larry would straighten up and stop causing so much trouble, but Maya reminds him that he's helped him out a bunch, too. Phoenix acknowledges this, but adds that it usually only comes after he's made a mess of things first!

There's a great moment during the trial when Phoenix is cornered, and Maya tells him he can't make that face and repeats their old adage, "A lawyer is someone who smiles no matter how bad it gets." Phoenix says he could've sworn for a moment that he saw Mia speaking to him (it's nice that she and Gumshoe actually get acknowledged by name in 6-6). Then Maya comments that now he's got that fearless smile she wants to see, and Edgeworth says that Phoenix only makes that silly face when he's about to make some ridiculous bluff.

I really like Sorin's reaction when you point out the possibility that someone tampered with his notebook and screwed with his memories. He just starts frantically flipping through the pages and going, "Is this memory mine?! Or this one?! Or this one?!" And then he has a pretty cool breakdown where he blasts off into the sky before floating back down to the ground. The possibility of memory manipulation opens the door for Phoenix to give Ellen and Sorin the happy ending they deserve, so he runs with it!

Pierce is an interesting culprit because he'll generally answer anything you ask him honestly as long as you ask the right questions. They use that to great effect in the last testimony, which I'll get to in a bit. I kinda like his transformation into rude surgeon dude, especially when he takes those X-rays of Phoenix's spiky head and Edgeworth's frilly cravat. That was pretty awesome. He isn't on the stand very long, post-transformation though. Just for one final testimony, although I really like it.
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Pierce's "Right to Remain Silent" testimony is really clever in concept. It reminded me a lot of 3-2's final testimony in that it's not something you can just tackle head on. You have to think through it a little. Pierce will answer anything Phoenix asks, but only if he asks the right questions, which is really smart. It's technically what a witness in court should do! You're not supposed to volunteer anything you aren't asked. What wasn't a smart move was goading Edgeworth and basically getting him to team up with Phoenix to take him down collectively. I guess it was a good thing in the end because it finally gets Edgeworth acting like himself, only caring about the truth and not trying to rush the verdict like he does a few other times in this case. I like that Pierce just yammers non-stop to prevent Phoenix from being able to talk as he gets closer to the truth. The Revisualization here is rather dumb and not in a "so bad it's good" way like 6-4's. "What was Gloomsbury killed with? The murder weapon. What was the murder weapon? The Time Keeper." Really? Come on now.

I like Pierce's breakdown a little bit, although his motive falls flat for me. That's the main thing I've got against him, because otherwise he's pretty good. Afterward, Sorin re-proposes to Ellen in a rather touching moment, and I like how the Judge corrects himself before he gives the verdict, changing her name from "Ellen Wyatt" to "Ellen Sprocket" as he pronounces her not guilty.

6-6 investigation day 1 playtime: 1:54:55
6-6 trial day 1 playtime: 0:59:57
6-6 in-game trial day 1 time: 4 hours, 48 minutes
6-6 day 1 total playtime: 2:54:52
6-6 investigation day 2 playtime: 1:11:53
6-6 trial day 2 playtime: 1:57:22
6-6 in-game trial day 2 time: 2 hours, 36 minutes
6-6 day 2 total playtime: 3:09:15
6-6 in-game trial total: 7 hours, 24 minutes
6-6 total playtime: 6:04:07

6-5 - 14:03:49
E2-5 - 9:36:06
3-5 - 9:35:46
2-4 - 9:05:21
1-5 - 8:46:43
E1-5 - 8:42:23
6-3 - 8:13:50
E2-3 - 8:09:06
E2-2 - 7:29:23
5-6 - 7:21:19
5-2 - 7:13:40
5-3 - 6:50:24
4-4 - 6:38:01
5-5 - 6:16:05
6-6 - 6:04:07
3-2 - 6:02:56
E2-4 - 6:01:14
6-2 - 5:58:46
4-3 - 5:58:33
3-3 - 5:48:31
2-3 - 5:06:33
1-4 - 4:59:52
4-2 - 4:58:35
E1-4 - 4:58:26
2-2 - 4:47:40
5-4 - 4:27:31
E1-3 - 4:02:16
1-3 - 3:49:35
E2-1 - 3:36:32
6-4 - 3:21:23
E1-2 - 3:15:49
6-1 - 2:59:52
1-2 - 2:40:40
5-1 - 2:19:33
4-1 - 2:11:44
3-4 - 1:54:15
E1-1 - 1:44:51
3-1 - 1:43:09
2-1 - 1:15:57
4-0 - 1:09:44
1-1 - 0:33:35

I think 6-6's length goes a long way to making it more digestible for me. It doesn't overstay its welcome. We have our first segment to finish in under an hour since E1-2 Middle (the first in the main series since 4-4), and the shortest non-PW1 investigation day, period!

Spirit of Justice total playtime: 40:41:47
Ace Attorney Investigations 2 total playtime: 34:52:21
Dual Destinies total playtime: 34:28:32
Trials & Tribulations total playtime: 25:04:37
Ace Attorney Investigations total playtime: 22:44:45
Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney total playtime: 20:50:25
Justice for All total playtime: 20:15:31
Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney total playtime: 19:46:53

SoJ playtime by lawyer:

Apollo - 19:58:50
Phoenix - 18:21:34
Athena - 3:21:23
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I feel like Pierce could have been so much more than he was. The last testimony is cute, but it's short, and it feels way too straightforward.

But overall Pierce is definitely the best case-specific character.

For a case in a later game, I feel like this case needed just a bit more scope. A second realistic red herring - a guy like Herman Crab - could have made it amazing. They leaned too heavily on the time-travel gimmick to sell the case, and once that was exposed, there wasn't enough meat left on the case.
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Interesting that without 6-6, AAI2 beats AA6 in total length

Paratroopa1 posted...

Interesting that without 6-6, AAI2 beats AA6 in total length

It's not too surprising because SoJ has two trial-only cases, and AAI2 beats it handily or matches it at every other turn except for 6-5.
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New topic:

https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/75305381
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LeonhartFour posted...

It's not too surprising because SoJ has two trial-only cases, and AAI2 beats it handily or matches it at every other turn except for 6-5.

not too surprising, but considering that 6-5 is 4:30 longer than E2-5, there's a ton of wiggle room for AA6

6-2 being a one-day case is probably the difference-maker
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6-2 is almost as long as a 1-day case as 6-6 is as a two-day case!

The biggest differential is between E2-4 and 6-4. It's almost twice as long.
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6-6 is 6 hours? man, it feels so light. it's shocking how bloated cases have gotten and how it feels so natural. I would have put money down on 3-2 and 3-3 being longer than 6-6.
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It's definitely light by the 3DS games' standards! It's basically like a JFA/T&T case in terms of its breakdown and length.

It's weird that 6-6 is the only two-day case in SoJ in that both trial days are focused on the same crime.
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6-6's investigations sure played like it was a six hour case.
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transience posted...

6-6 is 6 hours? man, it feels so light. it's shocking how bloated cases have gotten and how it feels so natural. I would have put money down on 3-2 and 3-3 being longer than 6-6.

yeah. not gonna well on it here, but the trend feels against substance and toward length

the consolidation of investigation has a lot to do with it - far more detail in each investigation area and extremely long segments there, but fewer of them overall. that's before getting into the increased talkiness during trial, too.
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they were boring, yeah, but they weren't overly long. but again, I'm comparing it to 6-2, 6-3 and 6-5 whose days are gigantic.
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LeonhartFour posted...

It's basically like a JFA/T&T case in terms of its breakdown and length.

and yet it still would have been by far the longest non-epic case of those!
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