Board 8 > Ace Attorney Discussion Topic, Part 5 - Let It Go and Move On Edition

(+) Yeah! (+)

By the way, the fact that 6-5 is a new-style AA case with 15 testimonies should really tell you something about how long that case is. For comparison, 5-2 and 6-3 only have 10; 5-5 and 5-6 only have 9!

I figured Gumshoe would be it.

surprised Courtney is on this list but not DeBeste.
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Yeah, Courtney has 3 in E2-2, 1 in E2-3, and 3 in E2-4. Debeste only gets 2 in E2-2, 1 in E2-3, and 1 in E2-4, and that's it for him. Both of them get Logic Chesses in E2-5 but no testimonies.

Paratroopa1 posted...

but actually the last testimony in the game takes place before his mask comes off.

aughhhhh

how many does e2-5 have? the first (and least interesting) part of that case is really testimony-light, so i guess not a lot?

thanks for the stats!
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E2-5 has only 12, surprisingly.

Shi-Long Lang - 2
John Marsh - 1
Shi-Long Lang - 1
John Marsh - 1
Shi-Long Lang - 1
Sirhan Dogen - 2
Simon Keyes - 4

Trial 1 pretty good. I feel like Trial 1 gets overshadowed a lot because Trial 2 has so much of the real meat of 6-3 and it doesn't help that it feels like you're going in circles in Trial 1 (which is part of why it's pretty good). In hindsight, it's neat that this is basically Nahyuta's best showing and a natural conclusion of how Phoenix in Khura'in would be. It's not until 6-3 Trial 2 where Phoenix starts to peel his way out of Khura'in.

Datz's shaggy appearance is pretty good, if only because his overly exaggerated expressions work really well with the shaggy appearance and kinda unnerving without the loads of hair.

Jeeze, Gumshoe destroys the testimony game. I'm a little surprised Ema had so few in AA4. And Portsman seriously had 6 testimonies? Maaan. Do you even have any testimonies in E-1 outside of Portsman?
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Nope, E1-1 is just six Portsman testimonies, and that's it. Gumshoe and Maggey don't get a word in at all. (Maggey is probably the most interesting 0-testimony character, there were three cases where she COULD have had one, but didn't)

how many does Edgeworth have?
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... he has one in the final act of 1-4. am i missing any others?
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SeabassDebeste posted...

... he has one in the final act of 1-4. am i missing any others?

That's it, just the one.

Paratroopa1 posted...

I decided to give the Divination Seances to Rayfa since she is the one who provides insights, and took the rest into account accordingly (although only two characters on the list have Mood Matrices anyway). Here we gooooo

19 - Dick Gumshoe
13 - Dahlia Hawthorne
12 - Shi-Long Lang
10 - Larry Butz
10 - Ema Skye
9 - Wendy Oldbag
9 - Calisto Yew
8 - Franziska von Karma
7 - Justine Courtney
7 - Bobby Fulbright
6 - Lotta Hart
6 - Adrian Andrews
6 - Shelly De Killer
6 - Lamiroir
6 - Jacques Portsman
6 - Rayfa Padma Khura'in
5 - Phoenix Wright
5 - Frank Sahwit
5 - Maya Fey
5 - Wesley Stickler
5 - Quercus Alba
5 - Uendo Toneido

1-5 and 2-4 are tied with the most testimonies, at 18 each. I'm pretty sure 2-4 day 1 is the day with the most, at 10. 3-5 has 17; E1-5 has 16; 6-5 has 15. 3-3 surprisingly comes next with 14, and I don't think any have 13. 5 and 6 generally have a lot fewer (5-4 and 5-5 combined have only 13!)

Neat to see this. I made a list of my own back a while back but I don't think I ever posted on B8. I have some slight differences from you like 3-3 only being 13 testimonies (still more than anything else) and Moe having 5 but it's probably a matter of exactly how you count some things.

The two most recent games definitely have lower testimony:time ratios, even if you take a generous view of what qualifies as a testiomony.
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I didn't count any testimonies that you don't actually get to press on, so Moe's first testimony I ignored. (I also ignored, say, Lana's last testimony that gets interrupted before you can press it)

I have 3-3 as 2 Gumshoe, 4 Kudo, 4 Armstrong, 4 Tigre - maybe I made a mistake there somewhere? I didn't have any weird quirks for that one

4 armstrong/4 tigre looks right to me for sure.
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Yeah, I expected Gumshoe to get close to 20 overall.

Paratroopa1 posted...

you somehow forgot about the four times he testifies in E1-5 too!

yeah I realized that after I had shut down my computer and gone to bed so it was too late to come back and correct myself

Paratroopa1 posted...

Franziska is a surprise appearance on this list

Yeah, I almost suggested her as a possibility because I know she has quite a few, but I didn't know if it would be enough.

Paratroopa1 posted...

3-3 surprisingly comes next with 14

That's not too surprising, actually! I'm pretty sure I started counting testimonies in T&T, and I remember day 2 having a whopping eight testimonies between Armstrong and Tigre.
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SeabassDebeste posted...

Paratroopa1 posted...

but actually the last testimony in the game takes place before his mask comes off.

aughhhhh

you "aughhhhh" but Fulbright isn't actually on the stand that long after the mask comes off

he flips through some comedic options pretty quickly and then lands on Phoenix for a little bit

then you present Athena's earring and HEADSHOT
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I recall him spending a weirdly long time as Means

yeah, time-wise it might not be as bad as it feels, it's just an absurdly long trial day, and everything after the mask comes off is so unnecessary that it feels longer
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Eh, he's probably Means the longest other than Phoenix because they like to revel in the absurdity of Fulbright's body doing all of Means's ridiculous animations, but it's not that long. Like, he's probably on the stand 20-30 minutes after the mask comes off, and most of it is as Phoenix.
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I think I hated that whole part because it just felt like 'hey, look at us, we have the technology to put anyone's head on anyone's body. haha! comedy'

yeah it feels like a glorified tech demo but Fulbright pulling off the mask to reveal Starbuck underneath is so hilarious to me that I give the whole thing a pass

I love that swerve so much
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I hate reveals that are like "huge plot twist! actually, just kidding"

It was impossible for Starbuck to have been the Phantom there, but wouldn't it have been cool if he was? If he had sabotaged his own mission and then somehow gone undercover afterwards? Interesting.

But nah they just had that huge moment there but it was just... I dunno.

Paratroopa1 posted...

It was impossible for Starbuck to have been the Phantom there

that's why I love it

i thought the series had jumped the shark for a second and then it's just the Phantom trolling me
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Man I actually really liked Fulbright and was bummed he ended up being a villain.
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20-30 minutes is the entire length of 1-3 day 3
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SeabassDebeste posted...

20-30 minutes is the entire length of 1-3 day 3

Nah, just the investigation.

The day total is about an hour.

1-3 trial day 3 is shorter than 1-1, and that's one of the most memorable trial days in the entire series because of the face turn.
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TheRock1525 posted...

Man I actually really liked Fulbright and was bummed he ended up being a villain.

Eh, Fulbright was a little too over the top and one-dimensional for me. I was kind of glad he ended up being one and done, and then they brought back Ema (although she could stand to be a little grumpier).
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Ema is super dull.
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Well, I'm not a super huge fan of Ema overall. I think teenage Ema is kinda bad, actually. Grumpy AJ Ema is the best, but I don't mind her being around for SoJ actually interacting with old characters, something she never got to do in AJ.
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Ema in all forms is pretty dull.

I demand lead detective Trucy Wright.
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Ema arresting Maya is still maybe the #1 weirdest moment in the series for me

TheRock1525 posted...

Ema in all forms is pretty dull.

*Snackoos you*
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Mr Hat will be her partner.
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instead of pulling out a badge she pulls out her magic panties

actually I'm already bailing on this idea

ABORT ABORT ABORT
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I like Fulbright. I didn't mind him at all in DD, but I dunno if I could have handled him in SoJ too. That theme song, though. So good.

Ema is pretty good as a detective and I wouldn't mind if she takes over as lead detective for the next few games. I'd be interested where they would go if they plan on making an entirely new detective that is meant for the long haul, though.
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I liked Ema a lot in AA6. didn't miss Gumshoe at all.
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I'd be okay with not seeing Gumshoe again. AA does good when it lets its new characters shine! (See 6-5)

LeonhartFour posted...

SeabassDebeste posted...

20-30 minutes is the entire length of 1-3 day 3

Nah, just the investigation.

The day total is about an hour.

1-3 trial day 3 is shorter than 1-1, and that's one of the most memorable trial days in the entire series because of the face turn.

i was referring to the trial, actually, but that's my point. it's ridiculous to say that the phantom without a mask lasts 'only' twenty to thirty minutes when those minutes are so inconsequential
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SeabassDebeste posted...

i was referring to the trial, actually, but that's my point. it's ridiculous to say that the phantom without a mask lasts 'only' twenty to thirty minutes when those minutes are so inconsequential

Yes, but "only" PW1 is so swift with the way its cases work. Don't bring up the exception as if it's a rule.

also I don't think the only "consequential" moments of cases are cross-examinations but it seems clear you do
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Anyway, I'm working my way through 6-3 investigation day 2, and I want to pause to bring up a little pet peeve I have with SoJ: Its overuse of flashbacks. We had two flashbacks to the end of trial day 1 in the very first scene of the investigation, and if you played straight through, those things happened two minutes ago. There was also a moment at the end of trial day 1 where Nahyuta flashed back to something Phoenix said five minutes ago. It's a tad overdone.

and of course there's that infamous flashback to Maya's speech at the end of 6-3 that only happens three times but feels like ten
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when I talk about AA6's overuse of recap type events, it's not just at the end of investigation days. it's also at the beginning of each one too, and sometimes/usually trials too.
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Eh, a lot of second investigation days do quick recaps at the office before you start (usually a quick "here's what we need to figure out today" thing), but they don't overindulge in flashbacks the way SoJ does.
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my biggest issue with it is how it implies what's important. it's kind of like a 'previously on 24' segment where they remind you of all the things that are going to come up in the next segment.
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I don't even know what that means
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sd will
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it's not the 24 thing I don't understand

like if you're suggesting it tells you what to focus on in the investigation, 6-3 hasn't really done that so far at all

the flashbacks at the beginning were basically "augh I can't believe we lost AND Maya got accused of another crime"

Phoenix really has no sense of direction at the beginning of day 2. He basically goes "uhhhhh let's just talk to everyone again and go to all the same places again and hope we find something"
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LeonhartFour posted...

Yes, but "only" PW1 is so swift with the way its cases work. Don't bring up the exception as if it's a rule.

also I don't think the only "consequential" moments of cases are cross-examinations but it seems clear you do

well the fact that AA1 has a high greatness-to-time ratio is one of the reasons that it is one of the best games, certainly

i didn't say that the only consequential moments of cases are in cross-examination! there are plenty of great non-cross-examination moments - the metal detector/bullet in 1-4, engarde's psyche lock, uncovering the truth about SS-5, the break in the middle of the showdown at the end of E2-5 where simon confesses to being the mastermind (but not to being the murderer)

one of my favorite moments - presenting the passport in 1-1 - also comes outside of cross-examination

but i think that the meat of a trial should come in cross-examination (and i don't think that's particularly controversial) and that the on-rails conversations/evidence cues are best saved for really climactic moments. i don't love the end of 3-5, but after four testimonies from maya, you're guided into pointing the finger at godot and then showing the mask, and that's the end of the case. it's a tremendous use of scene.

i don't think the end of 5-5 is a good climax, and it's unfortunately dragged out

transience posted...

sd will

i actually really enjoy 'previously on 24'! or at least i did during the good seasons of the show. i'm finicky about this; i enjoy a really good recap for TV episodes, but some aren't that good

i just finished episode 4 of legacy and i feel like the writing for the series has gotten stupider

like, i'm pretty sure that during the original run, we'd refer to the bad guys using their name. in legacy almost every time they're mentioned, they're just referred to as 'the terrorists,' which sounds more like team america: world police. the vagueness of the sleeper cells threat is also kind of bothersome.

(back to recaps: episode 2 of legacy literally had 'decorated former army ranger eric carter' or some sort of nonsense. the cringe was real.)
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SeabassDebeste posted...

well the fact that AA1 has a high greatness-to-time ratio is one of the reasons that it is one of the best games, certainly

being shorter doesn't mean you have a higher greatness-to-time ratio

unless you want to hail 1-2 as a top tier case
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as for what tranny means, i'm pretty sure he's getting at the idea that every game or story like this is kind of a mystery - even if you know basically where it's headed (the client gets off not guilty), you don't know exactly what's going to happen - what piece of evidence was important, what thread of conversation, which minor character

but often, a recap will omit the small details that could have been important and tell you basically the solution, plus the most important red herring, or whatever. it narrows the scope a lot when a wide possible range of expectations might have been one of the benefits of having such an expansive story. this especially applies to AA6, where you can have massively winding investigations. but when you go into recap, you basically distill down that awesome (or grind-y, depending on your opinion) experience and give the cliff notes, which is... reductive
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LeonhartFour posted...

SeabassDebeste posted...

well the fact that AA1 has a high greatness-to-time ratio is one of the reasons that it is one of the best games, certainly

being shorter doesn't mean you have a higher greatness-to-time ratio

unless you want to hail 1-2 as a top tier case

Agreed, but I specifically cited 1-3, and even more specifically Trial 3 of 1-3, which you agreed was one of the great trial days. It's also the shortest trial day in the series. The same also applies to 1-4, and together 1-3 and 1-4 comprise about 75% of the original game.
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...I don't feel like SoJ trying to narrow down your focus to what's important is unique. I feel like literally every game in the series does it in some form or fashion.

like I'm not good at solving mysteries and I'd never solve some of these cases without trial and error if the game didn't give me hints about what to focus on
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