Board 8 > Ace Attorney Discussion Topic, Part 5 - Let It Go and Move On Edition

(+) Yeah! (+)

Would've nailed all ten if you switched 5-2 for 5-6!

And 5-2 didn't miss by much!

the order's a little off but hey
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yeah I think I was the most off on 2-4
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I guess the only lingering question left is how high 6-5 goes.

Well, there's some debate about whether SoJ finishes as the longest game, too, but I think it's got the clubhouse lead after that case. One of the last three cases would have to really underwhelm for that not to happen, and "underwhelm" isn't in SoJ's vocabulary.
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6-5 is like 33% longer than 6-3 if I had to guess. so.. 12 hours? yikes
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If it's over 12 hours, 6-5 could have the #1 and #2 longest days in the series, to boot!

like we could be looking at each half of 6-5 being as long as 5-5

6-5 is basically 5-5 twice
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I think it's like

day 1 investigation: 3:15
day 1 trial: 2:05
day 2 investigation: 3:30
day 2 trial: 4:28
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I'm actually trying to figure out what I should do after I finish this

I started this back in January and it's almost May so it'll be weird to not be playing AA every night

I should probably just chill out for a while instead of being dumb and diving into another project but we'll see if I can resist the temptation
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what if you count the number of words for each character
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I am not quite that insane

yet
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ace attorney fangames
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Play the cases again in chronological order?
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I started working on a list of most words per character to see who made the top 20-30. I figured I'd have to keep it to the OT since gamefaqs stopped doing scripts and I didn't know where to find a good source. unfortunately, I found out after going through a lot of effort that AA2 and 3 aren't complete! sucks.

my guess is probably Phoenix -> Maya -> Judge -> Edgeworth -> Gumshoe for the OT. Gumshoe might top Edgeworth. throw in the whole series and Edgeworth is probably #2.
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actually, I downloaded that fan game but never played it. I should try.
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transience posted...

unfortunately, I found out after going through a lot of effort that AA2 and 3 aren't complete! sucks.

Yeah, that's a bummer because I've tried to find quotes in those scripts before and discovered that myself. I've thought about trying to do a script for all the games, but that'd be an insane amount of time, especially if I want to try to get every possible permutation and piece of dialogue.

SSBM_Guy posted...

ace attorney fangames

Ehhhh, there might be some good ones, but I'm not a fan of fanfiction games.

Team Rocket Elite posted...

Play the cases again in chronological order?

I will probably do this on my next Ace Attorney run, whenever that is.
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Transcribing text directly from the game is definitely not the way to go. If you want to create a game script, you would need to find a way to dump the text from the game and then figure out the best way to format everything. If you are just looking for quotations, just a text dump would usually be good enough.
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Yeah, that's why I would ultimately never bother with something like doing a script because I have no clue how to do anything like that and the alternative would be maddening to attempt.
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transience posted...

day 1 investigation: 3:15
day 1 trial: 2:05
day 2 investigation: 3:30
day 2 trial: 4:28

I lean longer on trial 1, shorter (just a bit) on trial 2. More like 2:45, 4:08.

Also I think I was the closest predictor for 6-3's length, at 7:49.

Will comment later on Trial 2!
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Oh man it's 6-4 day

Hype?
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that's the literal definition of hype

anyway, some trial 2 thoughts!

* definitely agreed that tahrust is an amazing witness!

* phoenix pushing to have the divination sequence is so, so good! also rhe'el nemu made me die of laughter.

* lol at flashing back twice in the span of like 3 minutes. that's an issue even in early AA games, i think, but they're a little less intrusive because the cases themselves are more compact, so they're not extending 2+ hour trials. they're probably also a little less frequent.

* 6-3 is definitely the definitive khura'in case. the fact that it is the definitive khura'in case - and the last phoenix case! - actually narrows the scope of 6-5. which... i mean, thank god for that, because we didn't need it to tackle the intricacies of khura'in with the rest of its scope!

* agreed that 'cornering together' (that's the only AA6 cornered theme, right?) is amazing. i'd have it on tier with 'keep pressin on' from AA5.

cornered: E2 > E1 = AA1 > AA5 = AA6 >>>>> AA3 > AA4 > AA2
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SeabassDebeste posted...

and the last phoenix case!

not quite!

SeabassDebeste posted...

'cornering together' (that's the only AA6 cornered theme, right?)

There's also A Cornered Heart, but that plays during moments when the deck is stacked against you

and it is also really, really good
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LeonhartFour posted...

not quite!

I mean, this is obviously the climax of the game for Phoenix! I wouldn't really count 6-5 as a Phoenix case.

And 6-6 is more of a Gaiden-type story anyway.

A Cornered Heart is definitely a different type of song. It's a really good one, though.
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6-6 is as much of a Gaiden-type story as both AAI games...! And 1-5 and 5-6.
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Anyway, I hit the save point in 6-4, so I figure I'd better update now so I don't forget stuff. We've already had six testimonies so far: One from Blackquill (which is of the "press every statement for more info" variety), one from Geiru, and four from Uendo, including a Mood Matrix with four contradictions of its own. It's a pretty loaded case so far! Actually, the more I play 6-4, the more I keep coming around on it not being that bad.

Before the trial, Athena's in a panic because the defendant's not there yet, and she didn't get a chance to do anything the day before because the request came so late. Blackquill shows up and starts panicking himself once he realizes it's Athena on the job because Phoenix and Apollo are both indisposed. Then I begin panicking once I realize what a loser of a client we have. Bucky Whet shows up hammered and on the verge of vomiting to his own trial. Ugh, this dude is terrible. Next time I see a defendant in an Ace Attorney game whose name ends in "-cky," I'm running the other way! I guess it ends up being a blessing in disguise because he's so drunk that he can't even enter the courtroom, so they leave him out of sight and out of mind.

Being the insanely prepared guy that he is, Nahyuta is back in America the day after 6-3 ends to tackle this case! He opens by cryptically alluding to that debt he said he owes Phoenix, and of course, Athena has no idea what he's talking about. Blackquill is the first witness, but before he begins, he questions if Nahyuta is the right man for the job because of how much the case depends on the knowledge of rakugo. Not to be outdone or shown up, Nahyuta waxes eloquent on the basics of rakugo for quite a while, and Blackquill has to begrudgingly admit he's done his homework well. As a witness, Blackquill is mostly a warm-up act who fills in the details we're lacking because there was no investigation segment. Athena says his testimony is bad for her client, but he shoots back that he's willing to tell her anything she wants to know as long as she asks the right questions. Their chemistry and rapport during this case is really good. Both of them together play really well off of Nahyuta, too, actually. It's an interesting trio of characters, each with some pretty awesome themes that we get to hear often! It's a shame 6-4 is the only place we get to hear the "Courtroom Revolutionnaire" remix though! Speaking of Nahyuta, he's disgusted with Blackquill, accuses him of attempting to collude with the defense, and tells him to get out of his sight because he's a disgrace to his profession.

Next up is Geiru and her balloons! I kinda like her as a character. I actually like her design, too, because it's absurd and over the top. Her balloon creations are neat, too, even if they don't really look that good. There isn't much to this testimony. The best part is that Athena repeatedly calls back Blackquill to corroborate Geiru's statements, which naturally annoys him to no end, and Nahyuta even does it one time for good measure.

After the testimony is over, Nahyuta tries to do some psychological manipulation of his own and plays the Heel Edgeworth card of "this witness is in a delicate state and how dare you traumatize her further." Then he tells Athena to use her enhanced hearing to realize that the gallery agrees with him. It's a pretty good tactic to take advantage of with Athena because she is sensitive to that type of thing since she can hear it all so clearly when things turn against her. Fortunately, Blackquill SILENCES the room and comes to her aid.
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LeonhartFour posted...

6-6 is as much of a Gaiden-type story as both AAI games...! And 1-5 and 5-6.

I mean, I'd definitely consider 1-4 and 5-5 the 'last' cases for Phoenix in both AA1 and AA5. Though I do consider 5-6 the best. Basically, the main story of the game wraps up there as far as Phoenix is concerned.

And yeah, AAI is pretty much Gaiden by default. They're deceivingly great!
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I'd consider 5-5 the finale for Phoenix in DD because it chronologically is the last one. The others, not so much.
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6-4 is good! I think a lot of negative reactions to it come from being such a weird departure after 6-3, it just kind of comes out of nowhere with the rakugo shit and no obvious hook like 6-2 had and it's just kind of like 'I want to keep dong Khura'in stuff why are we suddenly doing a case about noodles', and then also you start in trial and that always kind of carries a sense of 'eh, this case doesn't really matter' with it. But it's actually a pretty loaded case, and I think it was kind of an interesting experiment to do basically an entire filler case only in court (this is really the first time), and I think it works. Blackquill carries his case, and I actually like Nahyuta here more than any other case, surprisingly. Uendo is a great witness too. It's just fun, once you get over how weird it is it's a really unique case.

Once everything settles down, Nahyuta calls Uendo to the stand, who has a nifty theme of his own. Athena struggles with his testimonies at first, but once we get to the contradiction with the karuta cards (which I thought was really fun and clever), she starts to get a second wind. There's a great exchange where Nahyuta keeps trying to tell her to "Let it go and move on" and she keeps interrupting him with "Never!" before he can finish. Probably the best "aw yeah" moment for Athena in SoJ.

After Athena exposes a couple of contradictions, Nahyuta tries to get Uendo to exercise his right to remain silent. However, Blackquill shows who the master of psychological manipulation is by appealing to Uendo's pride as a performer and riling up the gallery to cheer him on to talk. Later on, he tricks him into admitting something he shouldn't have, too, namely that he's aware of the existence of Owen.

Uendo has a rather intricate Mood Matrix that later leads Athena to conclude that he has multiple personalities, and she's finally able to make sense of the OWEN 4TH message the karuta cards outlined. However, Nahyuta points out that Uendo has a rock solid alibi because he was on stage the entire window in which Taifu could've been killed until he discovered the body. Nahyuta says that everyone in the audience can corroborate the fact that he was there, as well as the fact that his performance was "a steaming pile of...well, you get the idea." This is actually a really fun testimony and a clever deduction on Athena's part when she realizes that Uendo performed the wrong routine and flopped on purpose so Blackquill and Geiru wouldn't overhear laughter from the TV and be tricked into thinking Taifu was still alive. We also get another fun Nahyuta moment where he performs "Time Soba" for everyone.

However, even though Athena has expanded the potential window for the time of death, Nahyuta claims Uendo has no motive to kill Taifu. After all, he had just been promoted and recognized for his skill! This leads Athena to question Uendo on the nature of their multiple personalities, and the fact that they share memories and awareness. However, she wonders if it's possible that maybe Owen is different and has his own set of memories and only comes out at certain times. Maybe this distinct personality has its own motive to kill Taifu, and now she wonders how they can get him to come out. Athena remembers Bucky nearly passing out from being drunk (Flashback #1 to that THREE FRESHES OF SOBA speech) and wonders if the same thing happened to Uendo. This testimony has a really tricky contradiction, at least for me, because you have to point out that the note Taifu posted has the same camel logo on it that the rice wine--excuse me, sake--does. I didn't even notice the camel pattern on that note the first time through! Uendo insists he wouldn't drink sake, but Athena thinks maybe he ate something with it as an ingredient without being aware of it. The Judge consents to allow them to test Athena's theory, but only if he gets to eat one, too! Blackquill dispatches Taka to get some of these sweet buns, and we hit the save point as we patiently wait for his return!
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I think Owen 4th is my biggest struggle with 6-4. we spend half the case trying to prove it and then he shows up, has little to do with the case and passes out. it ends up being more important than that, of course, but the whole case hinges on it and it's just not that interesting.
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Well, it is hugely anticlimactic because they make a big deal about him for so long, and then he just appears to be a scared little child who shows up for one testimony and goes away.

One of the things I'm realizing about 6-4 in hindsight that I like is that there are two different characters trying to perform a cover-up at the same time. Both Geiru and Uendo are attempting to rearrange and mislead the crime scene in different ways.
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6-4 might actually be my second favorite SoJ case tbh
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LordoftheMorons posted...

6-4 might actually be my second favorite SoJ case tbh

Okay putting it above 6-3 or 6-5 is a bridge too far for me

(it is my third favorite case in the game though. 5 > 3 > 4 > 2 > 1 > 6)

It's definitely not near 6-5. I'm generally down on 6-3 and up on 6-4 compared to the consensus. 6-3 probably wins for me, but it's close.
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6-4's not all awful. the upshot of AA5/6's general case-bloat is that they're so packed with stuff that there's at least something worthwhile in every case.

that said, 6-4 is quite clearly worse than 6-2, 6-3, and 6-5 to me! i think i'd have 6-6 over it just for its cast. my biggest question is 6-1, which has more unacceptable stuff but also some pretty amazing parts.
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Nah, 6-4 is still the second worst, but SoJ's got a pretty decent lineup. I guess I'll be the guy who likes 6-6.
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6-4's probably the worst for me. 6-6 barely limps over the line at the end to clear 6-4 and 6-1.
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6-6 was probably the case that improved most for me upon replay once I knew what to expect from it the second time around. There's a lot to like in 6-6 as long as you're not expecting it to be 5-6 2.0. The fanservice was enough for me to earn a respectable placement.
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Anyway, 6-4 complete! Three more testimonies to wrap things up: A Mood Matrix with Owen with three total contradictions and two by Geiru. Owen's appearance goes quickly downhill for Athena once it's revealed that he's a scared five-year-old who loves Taifu. However, it seems he actually did witness the murder, and after some finagling, we find out that Taifu must have injured his killer and they bled onto the dough that they suffocated him with. Nahyuta points out that Bucky has a gash on his eyebrow (good thing Gumshoe wasn't on this case or he might've been accused...!). Athena gets dejected at this turn of events, but then we get a great moment where Blackquill grabs her and shakes her from the first-person perspective, which is really cool and well done. He reminds her that she promised to believe in Bucky to the end, which snaps her back to reality. Owen remembers the scent of perfume before passing out.

Athena uses that information to drag Geiru back onto the stand. She does a good job of playing the "poor little ol' me" card to deflect suspicion away from her, but then Blackquill has another awesome moment where he deflates her balloon, which blows her bangs up and reveals that she, too, has a gash on her face. 6-4 does a good job on its presentation on moments like this. Unfortunately, Nahyuta has one final trick up his sleeve: Geiru's buckwheat allergy, which would prevent her from being able to be in the room long enough to kill him if he were cooking soba and if the murderer used soba dough. Blackquill calls it a dirty trick to hold back that information until it was convenient, but Nahyuta insists he was protecting Geiru's privacy for as long as possible. It does feel a little like a Heel Edgeworth move!

When Athena still persists in pursuing Geiru, she drops the innocent girl act and brandishes a balloon sword. The Judge's reaction to that is great. "Is this yet another new personality?!" After a couple of testimonies, Athena goes through the fancy Revisualization that culminates in the instant classic: THE MURDER WEAPON WAS UDON DOUGH. The final piece of evidence is Blackquill's testimony about Geiru feeding her dog some dumplings that he eventually had to bury, and Athena suggests that was how she hid the udon dough that had her blood on it.

I like Geiru's breakdown where all of her balloon creations go POP and then those other balloons also go pop. She removes the wig and weeps on the stand, talking about how it was her dream to inherit her father's name and how angry she was when Taifu gave the name to Uendo instead. One of SoJ's biggest themes is "Inheritance," and it probably shows itself the most in 6-4 with Geiru, I think. She's a killer but I still can't help but feeling bad for her here. She says she didn't care if her soba allergy killed her as long as she killed him, too. Athena tells her that she should have been more concerned with inheriting her father's heart more than her name, and with that, Bucky is declared not guilty. Nahyuta finally calls Athena by her actual name and promises to remember it in the future.

Afterward, there's plenty of talk about how eccentric Taifu's ways were, and how he was actually trying to encourage Geiru to seek her own calling in life instead of being tethered to her father's name. Unfortunately, he didn't do a very good job of getting his message across, and he died due to a misunderstanding.
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6-4 playtime: 3:21:23
6-4 in-game time: 2 hours, 5 minutes

E2-5 - 9:36:06
3-5 - 9:35:46
2-4 - 9:05:21
1-5 - 8:46:43
E1-5 - 8:42:23
6-3 - 8:13:50
E2-3 - 8:09:06
E2-2 - 7:29:23
5-6 - 7:21:19
5-2 - 7:13:40
5-3 - 6:50:24
4-4 - 6:38:01
5-5 - 6:16:05
3-2 - 6:02:56
E2-4 - 6:01:14
6-2 - 5:58:46
4-3 - 5:58:33
3-3 - 5:48:31
2-3 - 5:06:33
1-4 - 4:59:52
4-2 - 4:58:35
E1-4 - 4:58:26
2-2 - 4:47:40
5-4 - 4:27:31
E1-3 - 4:02:16
1-3 - 3:49:35
E2-1 - 3:36:32
6-4 - 3:21:23
E1-2 - 3:15:49
6-1 - 2:59:52
1-2 - 2:40:40
5-1 - 2:19:33
4-1 - 2:11:44
3-4 - 1:54:15
E1-1 - 1:44:51
3-1 - 1:43:09
2-1 - 1:15:57
4-0 - 1:09:44
1-1 - 0:33:35


Next up: 6-5!

Although I've been having this impending feeling that this particular replay might be a little tough for me on an emotional level.
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I'm starting to think more and more than 6-5 could crack 12 hours - I think the first day falls shy of 6 hours, but I think the second day makes up for it. These are two full length cases combined.

Well, they are technically two separate cases!
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Oh man I love Mood Matrix music so much:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhqfKLwP-XY
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The Running Wild version is pretty good, yeah. The regular version is solid, too.

I don't like it when the Mood Matrix upends an Allegro testimony though, especially in DD!
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Eh, I'd take Mood Matrix Running Wild over DD's Cross Examination Allegro.
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TheRock1525 posted...

Eh, I'd take Mood Matrix Running Wild over DD's Cross Examination Allegro.

get out
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Nope.

And I like DD'S CEA! I just think the foreboding, mysterious and tense nature of MM: RW is a cooler theme.
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DD and SoJ are so stingy with their Allegro themes that I don't want them being robbed of their place as the climactic music. Like, 5-4 teases you with it by having it used for Yuri's last testimony until it turns into a Mood Matrix before the cross-examination begins.

Although 6-4 was nice enough to give us Allegro for both of Geiru's testimonies.
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DD's Cross Examination Moderato is fucking amazing

Replayed 3-1

Young Mia >>> old Mia reconfirmed
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LordoftheMorons posted...

Replayed 3-1

Young Mia >>> old Mia reconfirmed

so true

LeonhartFour posted...

DD and SoJ are so stingy with their Allegro themes that I don't want them being robbed of their place as the climactic music.

objectively one of the worst parts about having fewer testimonies in the later games - less CEA! though yeah, i also really dig the psycho MM

GOAT music override has to be the dissin of phoenix wright, right? where the testimony is given to the rap... and then the cross gets the normal CEA anyway!

Paratroopa1 posted...

I'm starting to think more and more than 6-5 could crack 12 hours - I think the first day falls shy of 6 hours, but I think the second day makes up for it. These are two full length cases combined.

i predicted 12:35! and so far i have undershot the full length cases.
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Oh, and since now I'm not on my phone, I can comment on 6-4!

This is a good case for Nahyuta. Already mentioned his enthusiasm for learning about Japanese culture, but I love Nahyuta's prosecuting in this case, too. (He pulls those great cutthroat moves in 6-3, too - but they're not really unfair in 6-4, whereas he basically let Datz run out the clock in 6-3-1, which is less cool.)

I really love it when cases' final testimonies come down to something entirely bizarre. Geiru's final testimony being about her near-fatal buckwheat allergy is a perfect final testimony on such an off-beat case. (I'm similar reminded of 5-6's final Dissin', which is about a broken remote control.) The testimony is bulletproof and that comes through in a crushing cross-examination where both witness and prosecutor are a hundred per cent confident.

It's tough to have both confidence and contradiction, though. Bit of a shame that you don't get to poke holes in it and present evidence on it. As is becoming the norm for the series, the case isn't solved in cross-examination but in revisualization. Same deal with 6-2, where Retinz's alibi is bulletproof.
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