Board 8 > let's whine about IGN's top 100 RPGs list

(+) Yeah! (+)

I don't think I'll ever understand the huge love for CT and FFVI. Both are good, but nothing really special to me. Then again I think JRPGs have mostly only improved since the 90s so I don't hold a lot of them in high regard

The Mana Sword posted...

07 Secret of Mana

you know, maybe this list isn't so bad after all

I know, right? Not what I expected, but I'm happy.

swordz9 posted...

I don't think I'll ever understand the huge love for CT and FFVI. Both are good, but nothing really special to me. Then again I think JRPGs have mostly only improved since the 90s so I don't hold a lot of them in high regard

especially FFVI to me - I used to dislike that game, but I played it recently and had a really good time and by the end I was like, "yeah, this is definitely a top 5 final fantasy game"
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After making some surprising and bold decisions throughout the whole list, of course they went with the most obvious and predictable choices for first and second places. Meh.

popular games should probably top collective lists. nothing wrong with that.
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I think Chrono Trigger has more of a place close to the top of a general top 100 games list than a top 100 RPG list

Like no RPG Enthusiast should have it as their top RPG but it's a very good 'babby's first RPG' cause it's very easy to get into with the quick gameplay and good pacing.

FFX not ranking anywhere is the most egregious thing about the list though.
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Looking at how this list panned out I think @The_Mana_Sword and @FFDragon can agree with me on this.

IGN staff whaled for Trance Terra.
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I don't agree with that at all. Chrono Trigger is accessible, yeah, but it's not a baby game. it has enough depth for someone deep in the genre to still call their favorite. it isn't Mario RPG.
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Chrono Trigger is a really stripped down RPG masquerading as something bigger than it is. I don't really see Mario RPG as being significantly less complex there.
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wow IGN has hit rock bottom
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do you feel the same about FF4 or FF6? I don't see much of a difference there.
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I agree with their top two alone.
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I might consider VI a top 5 FF, but I do hate Terra, think the cast is bloated and don't like the split party parts.

Did not expect Vagrant Story to be top ten. Not that I am complaining, it is one of my three favorite games
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Awakening is on there. 37 is GBA but for some reason they gave it the FE1 pic
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10 The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt
09 Vagrant Story
08 Diablo II
07 Secret of Mana
06 Planescape: Torment
05 World of Warcraft
04 Pokémon Yellow
03 Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
02 Final Fantasy VI
01 Chrono Trigger

Ok - I can live with that. Top 8 no issue at all. We could argue order - but I think it's pretty solid.

I wouldn't have Vagrant story or Witcher 3 in my top 10 (not even in my personal top 30 or so) but I get that other people enjoy them.

transcience posted...

do you feel the same about FF4 or FF6? I don't see much of a difference there.

I think it may be unclear what CT lacks that an RPG enthusiast should want. I'll explain:

1. Meaningful gear and party composition choices. The most straightforward example of this you can see in the weapons. You get a weapon and only one member of your party can use it, and it's just take it as it appears. There are some random curveballs-- like you might wanna use the Swallow with Crono for longer than its attack value would indicate cause of the +3 speed but it's generally a treadmill of "get the universal strongest gear" Only one accessory slot, and armor despite having some illusion of choice early tends to homogenize later. FFVI beats FFIV here strong with more diverse gear sets, party choices, and esper system, but they're both pretty clearly ahead of CT I think.

2. Depth to battle system. Everyone has their set of 8 skills and that's what you've got. Most dual and triple techs are just more damage or more healing. You've got some that can heal, with elemental strengths/weaknesses basically being pokemonesque in that you've either got em or you don't. Not a huge difference between say Frog and Marle aside from preference. Status ailments are not really a factor in general. It's basically buff, bash, and heal. Most fights do not require any specific strategy beyond occasional gimmicks clearly explained in the fight, which is the case in Mario RPG too. FF games have these token gimmick fights-- like the first boss fight in both are "don't attack now or eat this terrible counter", but they have more than that too.

3. Plot and character complexity. CT's plot is very basic, and there isn't much in the way of character development or anything. There are probably two major twists in the story and that's it. FFIV and FFVI kill it in this regard I think.

It's mostly the first two where I feel CT is pretty stripped down speaking objectively. The third I realize is more subjective and I could humor an argument that CT isn't really all that far below FFVI and FFIV but yeah, I'd put the plot closer to Mario RPG than one of the FF games.
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I've only played 4 of the top 10. I think some of them are PC only which is why I've never played them and likely never will

kukukupo posted...

Top 8 no issue at all

Final Fantasy X, curr.
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swordz9 posted...

I don't think I'll ever understand the huge love for CT and FFVI. Both are good, but nothing really special to me. Then again I think JRPGs have mostly only improved since the 90s so I don't hold a lot of them in high regard

I'm the complete opposite. I have a hard time understanding anyone who doesn't hold CT and FFVI in their top 5 at least. JRPGS have only gotten worse since the 90s. (There are a few exceptions)

mario rpg's plot is very complex and nuanced thank you very much
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kukukupo posted...

swordz9 posted...

I don't think I'll ever understand the huge love for CT and FFVI. Both are good, but nothing really special to me. Then again I think JRPGs have mostly only improved since the 90s so I don't hold a lot of them in high regard

I'm the complete opposite. I have a hard time understanding anyone who doesn't hold CT and FFVI in their top 5 at least. JRPGS have only gotten worse since the 90s. (There are a few exceptions)

Final Fantasy X, curr
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I can only think of maybe 2 90s RPGs I'd have in my top 10. 3D and voice acting were huge leaps in the genre for me to the point that voiceless RPGs just don't really capture my attention anymore

I agree with Lopen but only in the sense that we're being harsh when it comes to 'the best of all time.' All of the things he mentioned does not prevent Chrono Trigger from being a very enjoyable experience for me, and I've certainly played it enough over the years. Chrono Trigger to me remains a top 20-25 RPG, and that's not a mark of shame. It just can't compare in numerous varied ways to games like Persona 4, DQV, Final Fantasy X, FFT, SD3, or even something like Dark Cloud 2 (also I think those 6 may be my top 6 JRPGs of all time, would have to think harder and man has FFX aged well in terms of enjoyment. I can replay that thing forever.)

Btw SD3 (Secret of Mana 2, basically) is everything anyone could want in a 16 bit JRPG when meaningful choices and interesting story. Comparing SD3 and CT side by side and the only thing CT has is music and maybe graphical polish.
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Vagrant Story in the top 10? Best list ever.

Leaving out worst FF FFX is also a bonus.
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Lopen posted...

transcience posted...

do you feel the same about FF4 or FF6? I don't see much of a difference there.

I think it may be unclear what CT lacks that an RPG enthusiast should want. I'll explain:

1. Meaningful gear and party composition choices. The most straightforward example of this you can see in the weapons. You get a weapon and only one member of your party can use it, and it's just take it as it appears. There are some random curveballs-- like you might wanna use the Swallow with Crono for longer than its attack value would indicate cause of the +3 speed but it's generally a treadmill of "get the universal strongest gear" Only one accessory slot, and armor despite having some illusion of choice early tends to homogenize later. FFVI beats FFIV here strong with more diverse gear sets, party choices, and esper system, but they're both pretty clearly ahead of CT I think.

2. Depth to battle system. Everyone has their set of 8 skills and that's what you've got. Most dual and triple techs are just more damage or more healing. You've got some that can heal, with elemental strengths/weaknesses basically being pokemonesque in that you've either got em or you don't. Not a huge difference between say Frog and Marle aside from preference. Status ailments are not really a factor in general. It's basically buff, bash, and heal. Most fights do not require any specific strategy beyond occasional gimmicks clearly explained in the fight, which is the case in Mario RPG too. FF games have these token gimmick fights-- like the first boss fight in both are "don't attack now or eat this terrible counter", but they have more than that too.

3. Plot and character complexity. CT's plot is very basic, and there isn't much in the way of character development or anything. There are probably two major twists in the story and that's it. FFIV and FFVI kill it in this regard I think.

It's mostly the first two where I feel CT is pretty stripped down speaking objectively. The third I realize is more subjective and I could humor an argument that CT isn't really all that far below FFVI and FFIV but yeah, I'd put the plot closer to Mario RPG than one of the FF games.

I get you. That's why Dragon Warrior III, Final Fantasy I, Final Fantasy V, etc are some of my favorite games. I'm into the gear, party makeup, and replay value.

What makes CT the best is it has the perfect balance. It is paced well, you don't need a ton of grinding, there IS some character choice (although it comes late game), there are many endings, and the New Game+ (this was new at the time). Plus - the characters are memorable, and while you think the plot might not have a ton of twists - people love a good time travel tale.

It does nothing amazing, but does everything equally enough to make a masterpiece.

And - you can do it all in 20 hours or so. No need to play it like a full time job in order to complete.

I like CT plenty I just think that if you're making a list of RPGs it shouldn't rate all that highly. People who are actually into the RPG genre really shouldn't have it as their favorite.

It's one of those weird things where if it was a general top 100 games list I'd take less exception to it being #1 than a top 100 RPGs list. Basically the idea being that if you're making a list of RPGs your audience is different-- it's more clear that CT lacks these things that other RPGs, even ones on the NES, tend to have, to someone who plays a lot of RPGs, and it becomes more glaring.
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As someone who didn't grow up with the games, the eternal love for CT and FF6 on the internet is always jarring to me. Like CT has very good presentation and pacing, but it's so simple that it's difficult for me to imagine it's legitimately someone's favorite game unless they just haven't played a lot of RPGs (and the person who made this list obviously has). FF6 I think just isn't memorable outside of Kefka plot twist. It's a very by-the-numbers game outside of that. There's been so, so many improvements and variations upon the RPG systems that whenever a list puts these two games at the top it always seems like habit to me.
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In addition to no FFX, no Fallout 3 either. I think New Vegas was that fanbase's favorite Bethesda Fallout though, so it sorta makes sense I guess?

Kingdom Hearts I also failed to make the list but I was expecting that.

Their FF ranking:
FFVI > FFT > FFIV > FFXII > FFIX > FFVII > FFI > rest

Oh, and:
1. Chrono Trigger
2. Final Fantasy VI
7. Secret of Mana
19. Earthbound
20. Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together
22. Final Fantasy IV
33. Dragon Quest V
39. Ogre Battle
56. Super Mario RPG
58. Lufia II
79. Illusion of Gaia

SNESfaqs: We're not alone!
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Lopen posted...

I like CT plenty I just think that if you're making a list of RPGs it shouldn't rate all that highly. People who are actually into the RPG genre really shouldn't have it as their favorite.

It's one of those weird things where if it was a general top 100 games list I'd take less exception to it being #1 than a top 100 RPGs list. Basically the idea being that if you're making a list of RPGs your audience is different-- it's more clear that CT lacks these things that other RPGs, even ones on the NES, tend to have, to someone who plays a lot of RPGs, and it becomes more glaring.

RPGs are my favorite game genre and CT is my #1 or #2 RPG (the other is Vagrant Story, which might be the most complex JRPG I've played?). Being simple doesn't make a game a worse RPG.
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It makes it worse at being an RPG, yes. Maybe a better game overall to you depending on where your priorities are.
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So you agree that Vagrant Story is the best JRPG on this list because it's the most complex one? Cool.
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Lack of FFX is laughable. Other than that, the list is fine, the order a fair bit off though.

At this point, I just look to see if top 10s/top 100s have what im looking for and dont give a shit what order its in
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Metal_DK posted...

At this point, I just look to see if top 10s/top 100s have what im looking for and dont give a shit what order its in

what a casual
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At least they got the Persona order right

This list seems out of order.
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Lopen posted...

transcience posted...

do you feel the same about FF4 or FF6? I don't see much of a difference there.

I think it may be unclear what CT lacks that an RPG enthusiast should want. I'll explain:

1. Meaningful gear and party composition choices. The most straightforward example of this you can see in the weapons. You get a weapon and only one member of your party can use it, and it's just take it as it appears. There are some random curveballs-- like you might wanna use the Swallow with Crono for longer than its attack value would indicate cause of the +3 speed but it's generally a treadmill of "get the universal strongest gear" Only one accessory slot, and armor despite having some illusion of choice early tends to homogenize later. FFVI beats FFIV here strong with more diverse gear sets, party choices, and esper system, but they're both pretty clearly ahead of CT I think.

2. Depth to battle system. Everyone has their set of 8 skills and that's what you've got. Most dual and triple techs are just more damage or more healing. You've got some that can heal, with elemental strengths/weaknesses basically being pokemonesque in that you've either got em or you don't. Not a huge difference between say Frog and Marle aside from preference. Status ailments are not really a factor in general. It's basically buff, bash, and heal. Most fights do not require any specific strategy beyond occasional gimmicks clearly explained in the fight, which is the case in Mario RPG too. FF games have these token gimmick fights-- like the first boss fight in both are "don't attack now or eat this terrible counter", but they have more than that too.

3. Plot and character complexity. CT's plot is very basic, and there isn't much in the way of character development or anything. There are probably two major twists in the story and that's it. FFIV and FFVI kill it in this regard I think.

It's mostly the first two where I feel CT is pretty stripped down speaking objectively. The third I realize is more subjective and I could humor an argument that CT isn't really all that far below FFVI and FFIV but yeah, I'd put the plot closer to Mario RPG than one of the FF games.

It's basically Star Wars A New Hope to a lot of people, although I agree some of the cast isnt as good (though some are). I do disagree about the story being too simplistic. Not that twists are everything, but I can think of three just of the top of my head.
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Lopen posted...

FFVIII not ranking anywhere is the most egregious thing about the list though.

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Mac Arrowny posted...

So you agree that Vagrant Story is the best JRPG on this list because it's the most complex one? Cool.

Be careful when you dumb things down that much some of it might rub off.

I'm not saying that. I didn't say CT was a bad RPG. Just that execution can only get so far and at some point people who are really into the genre are going to want things in the RPG that it just doesn't do. It's still better than a ton of other RPGs, even when you're looking through the lens of an RPG player, because what it does do it does really well.

Put it another way, would a strategy board game enthusiast ever say Checkers was better than Chess-- or at the very least, would they say it was their favorite board game of all time? No. That's not to say you'd automatically say Taikyoku Shogi was superior to Chess just because there's a ton more complexity to it, or even that Checkers sucks. Hell they may even like Checkers more than Taikyoku Shogi, but it shouldn't be their favorite-- otherwise they would've left the genre for something else a long time ago.

Is Fire Emblem Awakening the best strategy RPG?
Is Super Mario Kart the best racing game?
Is NBA Jam the best basketball game?

Etc etc. To people who aren't fans of the genres, sure, respectable choices. To people who are, though? It would be strange to see these.
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what lopen is really trying to say is that Chrono Trigger shouldn't be #1 on an RPG list because Chrono Cross is better
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pjbasis posted...

Lopen posted...

FFVIII not ranking anywhere is the most egregious thing about the list though.

Nope, the game has horrible design decisions and the plot at times is just completely cringe-worthy.
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I strangely might take less offense to Chrono Cross being #1 on such a list. Despite thinking Chrono Trigger is way the hell better, it's at least a conclusion I could vaguely comprehend someone who is an RPG fan and has knowledge of 100 RPGs coming to.

If you've played 100 RPGs and are some RPG nut, and Chrono Trigger is the one that hit everything just right for you? It's just bizarre to think of for me. Like you have to be playing the wrong genre.

It's a great #10 rpg choice, but a terrible #1.
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Yeah I feel like FF6 and CT are the safe picks for a list like this. When I first saw this topic my initial impression was "FF6 and CT are going to be #1 and #2" because lots of lists do that. They're widely liked, harken back to the nostalgic SNES days, and are well-known enough to not raise eyebrows while not being so well-known that they carry baggage. If you put FF7 at the top of this list it would cause a flame war but CT and FF6 are inoffensive.
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Lopen posted...

I strangely might take less offense to Chrono Cross being #1 on such a list. Despite thinking Chrono Trigger is way the hell better, it's at least a conclusion I could vaguely comprehend someone who is an RPG fan and has knowledge of 100 RPGs coming to.

If you've played 100 RPGs and are some RPG nut, and Chrono Trigger is the one that hit everything just right for you? It's just bizarre to think of for me. Like you have to be playing the wrong genre.

It's a great #10 rpg choice, but a terrible #1.

You seem to be confusing "best RPG" with "best at being an RPG." If it were the latter, Daggerfall or something would probably be the be #1.
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KamikazePotato posted...

Yeah I feel like FF6 and CT are the safe picks for a list like this. When I first saw this topic my initial impression was "FF6 and CT are going to be #1 and #2" because lots of lists do that. They're widely liked, harken back to the nostalgic SNES days, and are well-known enough to not raise eyebrows while not being so well-known that they carry baggage. If you put FF7 at the top of this list it would cause a flame war but CT and FF6 are inoffensive.

How do you feel about CT being the most popular RPG on GameFAQs?
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Lopen posted...

FFVIII not ranking anywhere is the most egregious thing about the list though.

I would have been surprised if FF8 got on here. It's an extremely flawed game and not one that had aged well for critical reviewers like the people who makes these lists. Like I love Nier 1 but if it got on here I would be confused because that is a game with some issues.

FF10 not being on is the weird one, especially when FF12 did (and I like FF12 a lot).
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Not really confusing, no.

It's about a balance of hitting RPG elements and execution, but CT is way too trimmed down to be a reasonable choice on a list of 100 tailored to RPG fans.

Like you may as well put Castlevania Symphony of the Night at #1.
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