Board 8 > Do some people really not like Walter White?

(+) Yeah! (+)

BowserCuffs posted...

I haven't watched the show but what little I've heard about it...

My impression can be summed up by a single trope:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarknessInducedAudienceApathy

Villain protagonists have to be enjoyably evil and from what I've read in this thread, even from the people praising him, he just sounds cringey evil. Like, "never my fault" except when we're supposed to feel bad for him when he blames himself or something (if he ever does)

And apparently the writers had to surround him with whiney people just to make him remotely relatable in the first place, which is not a good sign.

I'm glad I gave this show a miss, then.

my favorite part of this post is that he somehow believed that walt was surrounded by whiny people despite literally only 1 post out of 80 even talking about that subject
---

redrocket_pub posted...

Dfy556 posted...

creepy shit

Sociopath alert.

How someone analyzes Walter White is a fairly good litmus test for whether or not that person is a sociopath.
---

Lopen posted...

Saying Jesse was unlikable is even worse than saying Walt was. Dude was a lovable loser most of the time imo

I don't think he was likable during the first three seasons. Dude did some really scummy things and rarely displayed the sympathy that endeared him to fans in Seasons 4 and 5.

He wanted to sell meth to recovering rehab addicts, and he fleeced his parents - who seemed pretty loving and supportive - out of their home. He was only sympathetic when he was talking to kids (he cares about children, which is admittedly refreshing in a world like BB where they are used and killed) or getting his ass kicked.
---

Jesse was always, imo, a likable presence, but yeah for sure with each successive season Jesse becomes more sympathetic and Walt becomes less.

yeah but he said bitch lol!!
---

spooky96 posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

Can we get back to the bizarre claim that the Joker is well-written?

Joker is a great character


"More topics from this board..."

Wow, some of the B8 is ridiculously lame-ass.

I feel like you've never read comic books. Joker is a crutch for bad writers.
---

scarletspeed7 posted...

spooky96 posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

Can we get back to the bizarre claim that the Joker is well-written?

Joker is a great character


"More topics from this board..."

Wow, some of the B8 is ridiculously lame-ass.

I feel like you've never read comic books. Joker is a crutch for bad writers.

He completes Batman an a very interesting way for me at least.
---

awesome character, terrible person, not the most terrible person on his show

the point where he really crosses the unforgivable line is probably season 1's 'grey matter' - where he's literally offered a cushy job with medical benefits by his ex-friend and ex-girlfriend - and chooses to stay in the meth business because his ego can't take the beating

it's relatable, but evil, and that's part of what makes it a power fantasy

man, this topic made me miss breaking bad. maybe i'll start S2 of better call saul this week.
---

So when I present a disclaimer before presenting my opinion based off of information I've been given - including by this very thread - I get a lot of people sarcastically snarking off at me.

Fair enough, though I will say I never tried to pretend my opinion was more than "heard about the show and what people say about it has utterly disinterested me" though.

If y'all can't handle that then maybe sell your show better or deal with it.
---

I, Vince Gilligan, have failed to entice BowserCuffs. I must rethink my life.

You literally point to one of the easiest possible tropes to point to for someone who hasn't watched the show, explain what's wrong with the trope itself, talk about the negative thing only brought up the post before yours (which is a massive oversimplification itself), and then say you're glad you didn't watch it.

But no, it's definitely our responsibility to sell you on this show you have made clear you not only don't want to watch but are happy to not watch.
---

Well the biggest sell I can give you BowserCuffs, is that my mom had an inherent bias against the show because of the subject matter, not too unlike yours just with less attempts to appear justified in being biased, and I twisted her arm to watch it and now it's one of her favorite shows ever.

So I'd definitely advise everyone to at least give it a try-- watch the first season (only 6 episodes) and if nothing there has gotten you hyped it's safely dropped.
---

I think the fact that despite everyone arguing different perspectives for the main character's likability, literally everyone who has actually watched the show says it is amazing should be enough.
---

Breaking Bad has a very heavy plot and impressive characterization for even ancillary characters, let alone the main cast. It also has a fandom that is very heavily invested in said characters/plot and has spent countless hours discussing them in depth. You can't really join a BB discussion claiming to have never watched the show and then summarily dismissing it a few sentences later.

To that point, Bowser, your first post was just inviting an argument.
---

tbh Bowser you seem like the sanctimonious sort

I loved Breaking Bad but it might just not be your kind of thing

(although I will say that Walt has some amazing "cringey evil" scenes. like when there's gasoline all over his carpet, and he's demanding that the cleaners get it out RIGHT NOW I HAVE MONEY, and then flailing about with transparent lies to explain it to his family. I'm probably not selling it very well but the whole sequence is hilarious)
---

Yeah, my dad LOVED the show, and he almost never watches American television unless it's a soccer match or some science documentary.

He tried to get my mom into it, but the subject matter was a little too extreme for her.
---

Gatarix posted...

(although I will say that Walt has some amazing "cringey evil" scenes. like when there's gasoline all over his carpet, and he's demanding that the cleaners get it out RIGHT NOW I HAVE MONEY, and then flailing about with transparent lies to explain it to his family. I'm probably not selling it very well but the whole sequence is hilarious)

Oh man, I love remembering how spastic Walt can be.

Roof Pizza still one of the greatest scenes in TV history
---

kevwaffles posted...

You literally point to one of the easiest possible tropes to point to for someone who hasn't watched the show, explain what's wrong with the trope itself, talk about the negative thing only brought up the post before yours (which is a massive oversimplification itself), and then say you're glad you didn't watch it.

But no, it's definitely our responsibility to sell you on this show you have made clear you not only don't want to watch but are happy to not watch.

The point isn't "Hey my opinion is you guys' fault so own up to it"

The point is "Based off of clips I've seen, things I've looked at, and what the people who like the show have talked about, this show feels like it'd be nothing but an apathy fest where everyone sucks and the main character is only redeemable because he's the least sucky".

Which people reacted to by "HOW DARE YOU PRESENT YOUR OPINION ABOUT A SHOW YOU HAVEN'T WATCHED"

Also, to be fair, that bit about Walter being surrounded by whiny people I've actually heard from other sources. So it's not like it's just from here.

Look, my opinion was presented as exactly what it is - someone who hasn't watched the show and hasn't been given a good reason to. And you know what? That still stands.

So then, you believe me to be wrong. That's great! Tell me why. Talk to me like you're an adult, not an offended fanboy.
---

CaptainOfCrush posted...

Oh man, I love remembering how spastic Walt can be.

Crawl space so good.
---

So people
How did you feel at the end of season 4 when Walt said "I won"
Were you happy? mad? sad? angry?
---

no one really cares if you watch breaking bad, just if you come and post ignorant/incorrect stuff in a topic discussing it when you haven't even seen it
---

I remember going to the Cable TV board when Crawl Space first aired, and people were just in shock.
---

CaptainOfCrush posted...

I remember going to the Cable TV board when Crawl Space first aired, and people were just in shock.

Yep, I was on my first watch through when Crawl Space aired, and everyone was flipping out over it. The anticipation damaged the episode for me a bit, but it was still pretty good.
---

Fun fact: the pizza scene took one take to shoot.
---

BowserCuffs seems like someone who just wants someone to talk to. He'll inject himself into a conversation he knows almost nothing about for the sake of conversation. And when people who do know what they're talking about laugh at what clearly is unusual and kinda cringe-worthy, he gets defensive instead of taking the obvious hint.

People are something.
---

SeabassDebeste posted...

no one really cares if you watch breaking bad, just if you come and post ignorant/incorrect stuff in a topic discussing it when you haven't even seen it

The topic was "Do some people really not like Walter White?"

And I came in to express why I didn't like the character or the show based off of information I was given.

If some of that information is wrong, then it's wrong. I'm open to being corrected.

I actually like villain protagonists, for heaven's sake.

An incorrect opinion unspoken will forever remain incorrect.
---

BowserCuffs posted...

If y'all can't handle that then maybe sell your show better or deal with it.

We did deal with it, by calling you dumb. No one cares nearly enough about you to "sell the show better" especially since this topic is discussing COMPLETE SERIES SPOILERS which no non-watcher should come near.

Go to r/breakingbad if you want people desperately trying to convince you to watch the show as if it matters at all.
---

spooky96 posted...

He completes Batman an a very interesting way for me at least.

Joker doesn't complete Batman. There are a lot of characters out there who provide the perfect foil for Batman, and Joker isn't one of them. Ra's al Ghul is the foil. Superman is the foil. Lex Luthor is the foil to Bruce Wayne. Joker is just crazy. And not even crazy in a consistent manner.
---

A far as Jesse being unlikable in the first three seasons: he's definitely a scumbag, but what makes him less of one is that he's really bad at it. He's bad at selling meth, he's bad at tricking people, and he's bad at not being tricked. He's even worse at living a normal 'productive member of society' life - selling meth seems like much more of an "I had no choice" decision than it did with Walt. And like every drug dealer destined to fail, he gets addicted to his own product. Jesse is someone that has genuinely failed at life in every way and it's hard not to feel some empathy even as he acts like a scumbag.

Jesse also has some major humanizing characteristics. Mostly with kids. The episode where he tries to collect money from the methhead wife & husband is the big turning point for his likability, I think (it's also underrated and one of the most important episodes in the series). We get to visibly see that, unlike the paper-thin tough guy image he tries to project, Jesse is frightened and disgusted with the meth business and what it does to people. He also knowingly puts himself at risk in an attempt to minimize the emotional damage to the kid in that situation.

Another good moment for him early on is when he more or less sacrifices his opportunity to reconnect with his parents by covering for the joint they found in their house. It belonged to his little brother but he takes the heat and gets ejected again. Also makes sure that his brother doesn't get hold of the stuff - he knows from personal experience that it's not a good life decision.

I think Jesse being bad at being bad is nowhere more apparent than in his scheme to try and sell meth to recovering meth addicts. It's a horrible, repugnant idea. He also backs off the moment he realizes how selling meth to them would affect their families. There's a large amount of guilt in Jesse, and it's guilt that grows throughout the series. This is in stark contrast to Walt, whose guilt rapidly decreases throughout the series.

Fleecing his parents out of their aunt's house was pretty bad and not defensible though. But even then it feels small-scale compared to what else goes on in the show, honestly.
---

Peridiam posted...

BowserCuffs seems like someone who just wants someone to talk to. He'll inject himself into a conversation he knows almost nothing about for the sake of conversation. And when people who do know what they're talking about laugh at what clearly is unusual and kinda cringe-worthy, he gets defensive instead of taking the obvious hint.

People are something.

...Actually, you're probably not wrong.
---

scarletspeed7 posted...

spooky96 posted...

He completes Batman an a very interesting way for me at least.

Joker doesn't complete Batman. There are a lot of characters out there who provide the perfect foil for Batman, and Joker isn't one of them. Ra's al Ghul is the foil. Superman is the foil. Lex Luthor is the foil to Bruce Wayne. Joker is just crazy. And not even crazy in a consistent manner.

So how would you rate the following stories?

A Death in the Family
The Killing Joke
Emperor Joker
---

redrocket_pub posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

spooky96 posted...

He completes Batman an a very interesting way for me at least.

Joker doesn't complete Batman. There are a lot of characters out there who provide the perfect foil for Batman, and Joker isn't one of them. Ra's al Ghul is the foil. Superman is the foil. Lex Luthor is the foil to Bruce Wayne. Joker is just crazy. And not even crazy in a consistent manner.

So how would you rate the following stories?

Death in the Family
The Killing Joke
Emperor Joker

Death in the Family was literally a phone poll. It's terrible.

Killing Joke is well-written but also not intended to take place in continuity.

Emperor Joker was silly and fun, but the Joker was just a plot device and not a real character in that story.
---

KamikazePotato posted...

Fleecing his parents out of their aunt's house was pretty bad and not defensible though.

His parents were bigger dicks about it than him. That never even registered as a scum move to me (biggest scum thing was the scheme to sell meth to recovering addicts) that was turnabout being fair play.
---

KamikazePotato posted...

(it's also underrated and one of the most important episodes in the series)

By far one of the most visually striking episodes in the series too
---

BowserCuffs posted...

Peridiam posted...

BowserCuffs seems like someone who just wants someone to talk to. He'll inject himself into a conversation he knows almost nothing about for the sake of conversation. And when people who do know what they're talking about laugh at what clearly is unusual and kinda cringe-worthy, he gets defensive instead of taking the obvious hint.

People are something.

...Actually, you're probably not wrong.

No, I'm probably not. ;)
---

And with that I'm gonna offer my apologies for injecting my ignorant opinions into this discussion.

Next time I'll actually make sure I know more about what I'm talking about before butting in and sharing opinions no one asked for :P
---

Lopen posted...

KamikazePotato posted...

Fleecing his parents out of their aunt's house was pretty bad and not defensible though.

His parents were bigger dicks about it than him. That never even registered as a scum move to me (biggest scum thing was the scheme to sell meth to recovering addicts) that was turnabout being fair play.

They were kind of dicks but understandably so, as they were tired of Jesse's shit. The meth addict scheme was much worse but he didn't actually go through with it, while with the house he did. As I said though it doesn't matter much to me. It didn't actually affect his parents much, it was just a shitty thing to do.


foolm0r0n posted...

KamikazePotato posted...

(it's also underrated and one of the most important episodes in the series)

By far one of the most visually striking episodes in the series too

Yeah. It's one of the only episodes in the series - if not the only episode - that explores what the meth business actually causes. The rest of the series sticks to the more 'respectable' side of it, like it's a business that just happened to be illegal and cutthroat. That episode tears off that illusion and shows that meth ruins lives and propogating it also ruins lives.

It's not a coincidence that Jesse is the one who is the protagonist of that episode. He's the only one who would actually care. Walter would be disgusted and mutter some excuses about 'doing it for the family' but he wouldn't feel any actual empathy for anyone. Jesse was deeply scarred by what he saw. It's probably what reinforced his desire to protect children from the meth business.

Another point in Jesse's favor - him freaking out over his girlfriend's little brother being used and then murdered at the end of Season 3. Was it a smart, logical choice? No. But it was an understandable emotional response that would only occur from someone who cares.
---

You are really judgmental bowsercuffs
---

>apologizes for being a dumb butt
>gets called judgmental

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/833/247/578.png
---

You are really judgmental and apologetic bowsercuffs
---

Bowser is a bit of a Walter White
---

foolm0r0n posted...

Bowser is a bit of a Walter White

That's a good one :P
---

Am I a bad person for liking Jesse less as time went on and he got more sympathetic?

By the end of the series, I found him to (justifiably) be just as whiny as the rest of people in Walt's family, and it kind of turned me off of the character.

I was always rooting for Walt and Jesse, regardless of whether or not they were the villain, but as time went on and Walt and Jesse were no longer on the same "side", I kind of lumped Jesse in with those that were against Walt, and shifted to strictly Walt when it came to who I wanted to see succeed.

In saying that, I thought the ending provided a great resolution for both characters and was happy with it.
---

davidponte posted...

Am I a bad person for liking Jesse less as time went on and he got more sympathetic?

https://media3.giphy.com/media/a3YeYzPL2SsEg/giphy.gif
---

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I wanted evil to prevail from the very beginning.
---

I think Jesse peaked in Season 3. He got kinda silly when he was going all emo and throwing money around. Sympathetic is one thing but he eventually started overdoing it.
---

I'll never get the argument that people are whiney because they complain about a character doing something horrible and stupid

When Skylar fucked Ted it was 100% deserved on Walt's end
---

FFDragon posted...

davidponte posted...

Am I a bad person for liking Jesse less as time went on and he got more sympathetic?

https://media3.giphy.com/media/a3YeYzPL2SsEg/giphy.gif

That was a rare goofy moment for him in the latter half of the show. Most of the time he was either brooding or crying.
---

Lopen posted...

I think Jesse peaked in Season 3. He got kinda silly when he was going all emo and throwing money around. Sympathetic is one thing but he eventually started overdoing it.

These are my thoughts exactly.
---

speaking of

in a show of ridiculous things

ted's "death" was the most ridiculous
---