Board 8 > Do some people really not like Walter White?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Genuine question, because I just marveled at his feats. Him killing Mike in S5 was the first time when I was like 'Nah Mike didn't deserve to die', even still that wasn't enough for me to start disliking him.
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He's pretty much an egotistical dick.
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OliviaTremor posted...

He's pretty much an egotistical dick.

having said that he is great tv

he's a terrible, unlikable person

that being said, it's good to have terrible people in a show because they drive the action and conflict. the main difference here was that he was the protagonist in a drama as opposed to being the antagonist or in a comedy

it's a similar situation to the main guy in house of cards

if you aren't rooting for the villainous protagonist at least a little there's no reason to watch
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There were times when I didn't really like him, particularly in season 5A when he spent more time around Mike. Mike was a badass and made Walt look like a little bitch. Ironically, after Walt killed Mike, I started to like him a lot more. Without that contrast, Walt looked like a badass in season 5B. I rooted for him over Hank.
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Who
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I hated him, but I'm pretty sure I was supposed to so eh
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Walt was basically pretty likable till Season 5. Season 5 they kinda tried to bludgeon you with the idea that he was a bad person so he was more of a dick there. At that point I still liked him but yeah stuff like with Mike (I like that you spoiler tagged part of it but not the other part) was kinda like "really, dude?"
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Really? Season 5? Walt became pretty unlikable when he lets Jane die in S2, and just gets worse from there. The S4 finale stuff is probably the tops of selfish, bad stuff that he does. He's still a good character, but I'm just saying by S5 there wasn't a whole lot of stuff left for Walt to do to make me like him less.
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The entire point of Walter's character is that he is incredibly self-centered and unlikable. People just get it warped because he's the main character and a very well written one. WW is many things, but likable is not one of them.

Skyler: If I have to hear, one more time, that you did this for the family–
Walter: I did it for me. I liked it. I was good at it. And... I was... really... I was alive.

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Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. I never really know what to go with.

My dad hates him with a fiery passion tho
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He's not likable. That doesn't mean he isn't well-written though.
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Lopen posted...

Walt was basically pretty likable till Season 5. Season 5 they kinda tried to bludgeon you with the idea that he was a bad person so he was more of a dick there. At that point I still liked him but yeah stuff like with Mike (I like that you spoiler tagged part of it but not the other part) was kinda like "really, dude?"

This is basically my stance. Though, I wouldn't say "likable." I'd go more with "pretty awful but it's to other awful people and I sorta get why he did what he did". Basically juuuuuust enough to make you still root for him, but feel pretty bad for doing so.

Then Season 5 happens and makes Walter into cartoon levels of villainy.
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The first half of the series intended to get you to like Walter White even though he was doing awful shit. The second half of the show intended to guilt you for ever building him up in your mind and liking him.
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Pretty much what everyone said. He was unlikable but very well written and it was easy to enjoy watching him do shit. Kind of like Hannibal from Hannibal. There are other characters on TV that teeter the line between reprehensible and good much better than Walter. I'd point to Boyd Crowder.
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I liked walter a lot. Not as a person because he was kind of an asshole from episode 1, but as a character on TV he was very engaging and fun to watch.

Side note: I cheered when he late Jane die because fuck Jane.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

He's not likable. That doesn't mean he isn't well-written though.

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You can be likable while still being a dick. He was generally a dick to dicks pre season 5 so it didn't really get in the way.
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I don't understand this usage of likable by most people. It's a strange way of objectifying something that is purely subjective. Do you like Walter White? A lot of people do, so of course he's likable. Doesn't mean everyone does either.

People conflate this a lot with a character being well-written, and differently still, if you are supposed to root for the character.

You are definitely not supposed to root for Walt, at least insofar as the entire premise. The big draw is he is a somewhat villainous protagonist, and they get what's coming to them in the end. You can call that a tragedy. Bigger villains are put against him so you root for him to defeat the worse evils, and you also root for him to overcome most of the barriers put up against him because you want the drama to continue. But when all is said and done he's not supposed to get a happy ending, whether you like him or not.

And he's still likable enough. He never stops completely caring about his family, or start murdering innocents too coldly. Sure, he's ruthless, but he's never a monster about it, and he even comes to terms that his selfishness in the end, though it's too little too late at that point.
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For people saying he's likable until season 5, you should rewatch the show because with the perspective of the whole show in mind, he starts being unlikable in literally episode 1
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whether a character is a "bad person" or not is pretty much completely unrelated to whether i like them

walter was cool but not my favorite from the show
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foolm0r0n posted...

For people saying he's likable until season 5, you should rewatch the show because with the perspective of the whole show in mind, he starts being unlikable in literally episode 1

these people saying that are also cheering what he did to jane and saying he only harmed bad people with his actions so not sure you are gonna convince them

literally poisoned a child
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Honestly the Jane thing is perfectly rationalizable back when it happens. Especially since he seems to show remorse for it.
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FFDragon posted...

The entire point of Walter's character is that he is incredibly self-centered and unlikable. People just get it warped because he's the main character and a very well written one. WW is many things, but likable is not one of them.

This exactly. I hated *him*, but he made for some great television and was one of the best TV lead characters in recent memory.

Yeah pretty much what HGR said. Plenty of "bad people" characters I think are likable.

I just feel like he makes a jump from "guy who gets in over his head has no qualms with doing bad things when it's necessary but generally is acting in a way to try and help his family and friends and limit damage in spite of that" vs "bad guy who is just an over the top dick to everyone because we need it rammed down our throat that we're not supposed to like him" in Season 5.

Related: I like pretty much the entire cast less in Season 5.
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foolm0r0n posted...

Honestly the Jane thing is perfectly rationalizable back when it happens. Especially since he seems to show remorse for it.

Oh yeah I totally felt the remorse when he smugly told Jesse to his face just to destroy him with the last thing he'll ever hear.

didn't walt poison brock in season 4 though and then use that to manipulate jesse

and didn't he manipulate jesse into assassinating gale in season 3

and didn't he watch jesse's girlfriend die, just so he could manipulate him some more in season 2

i feel like walt was over the line long before season 5 rolled around, they just made it much more in your face by then

I mean, he manipulates jesse from the word go, but those are the most egregious moments I think
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Lopen posted...

I just feel like he makes a jump from "guy who gets in over his head has no qualms with doing bad things when it's necessary but generally is acting in a way to try and help his family and friends and limit damage in spite of that" vs "bad guy who is just an over the top dick to everyone because we need it rammed down our throat that we're not supposed to like him" in Season 5.

It's very important to also note that while Walt says he's doing things to help his family, their well-being matters less to him than the fact that they're relying on him and he's helping them on his own terms. He's managed to turn helping people he cares about into something selfish. If he actually cared about his family more than he does his ego, he'd do a lot of things differently and we probably wouldn't have a TV show. If you buy that excuse, you're buying into the same lie he's telling himself. That's an overall theme of the show, not something that changes in Season 5.
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How do the Walt wasn't bad to anyone that wasn't a **** pre-season 5 people justify Gale.

PerfectChaosZ posted...

How do the Walt wasn't bad to anyone that wasn't a **** pre-season 5 people justify Gale.

How does the show justify Gale
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Remember when Walter was offered a cushy, high-paying job by his old friends that would have solved all his money problems, and didn't take it because of an egotistical grudge, preferring to literally cook & sell meth instead?

And then continues to say it was all for the family?
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SPOILERS

What the hell do people want from him? he did nothing wrong (besides the Mike thing)
I am dead honest.

Every single time he did something bad it was to save himself - and is there anything wrong with that?
In the first episode IIRC there was some drug dealer that wanted him dead - he cooked something to kill him (self-defense)
He kept Krazy-8 alive because he didn't have it in him to kill another person and only killed him in self-defense
Then the next time someone dies was Jane - he didn't even kill her, only watched her die and that was AFTER she threatened him to ruin his business (and I think reveal his identity but I am not sure). She fucking blackmailed him, why would he save her?

Then there were the two people that Jesse wanted to kill but Walt killed them to save him, so?
Then he sent Jesse to kill Gael because otherwise Mike would kill him

And then do I need to state the reason for killing Gus? Hector wasn't neccesary but that was the only trap he could think of, so whatever
And then the few hencheman he had to kill to burn down all evidence of him working in Gus lab?

The only pointless death was Mike and he even admitted to it "I just realized Lydia has the names I could get from her"

Then he killed some nazis in season 5 but can we blame him?
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why does everyone ignore brock

that is like the single worst thing he does
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FFDragon posted...

why does everyone ignore brock

that is like the single worst thing he does

Remind me again how deadly is Lily of the Valley?
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his actions completely ruin his relationship with his wife, eventually dragging her into all of the mess hes made, resulting in his son no longer having a father and having to deal with all the baggage that comes with what happened, and creating a scenario where the absolute best case scenario for Hanks family is that he gets fired when Walt is found out, and this ignores the people whose lives are ruined by the drugs hes making in the first place...

like all of his decisions are 100% selfish and negatively impact regular not bad people all the time. Walt never once gives a fuck about his family or anyone else over his own selfish desires.

Dude was pretty clearly a prideful and egotistical prick

But a great one

KamikazePotato posted...

Remember when Walter was offered a cushy, high-paying job by his old friends that would have solved all his money problems, and didn't take it because of an egotistical grudge, preferring to literally cook & sell meth instead?

And then continues to say it was all for the family?

I think you can have dual motivations, he was just lying about one of them
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Nanis23 posted...

Remind me again how deadly is Lily of the Valley?

Incredibly.

Like obviously the ricin would have been a ~100% kill, but the LotV was at least a >50% kill.
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Unknown_voter posted...

his actions completely ruin his relationship with his wife, eventually dragging her into all of the mess hes made, resulting in his son no longer having a father and having to deal with all the baggage that comes with what happened, and creating a scenario where the absolute best case scenario for Hanks family is that he gets fired when Walt is found out, and this ignores the people whose lives are ruined by the drugs hes making in the first place...

like all of his decisions are 100% selfish and negatively impact regular not bad people all the time. Walt never once gives a fuck about his family or anyone else over his own selfish desires.

And how many times could he stop? how many times he stopped and returned to it because something forced him to?
I never felt like he could stop making meth, and even when he did stop something forced him to do it again
Not his fault
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the dude tries to rape his wife and makes his son drink until he throws up in I think season 2

that was around when I realized he was actually just a dick
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Yeah when I say that Walter White is a good character, I mean he's well written. Just like something like Joker.
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Nanis23 posted...

And how many times could he stop? how many times he stopped and returned to it because something forced him to?
I never felt like he could stop making meth, and even when he did stop something forced him to do it again
Not his fault

This is absolute bullshit btw.
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FFDragon posted...

why does everyone ignore brock

that is like the single worst thing he does

I declare you Jesse Pinkman of the board.
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yeah, bitch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvzsLgqNJ9o
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spooky96 posted...

Yeah when I say that Walter White is a good character, I mean he's well written. Just like something like Joker.

The Joker is so poorly written 9 times out of 10 that I really don't understand the comparison.
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the thing (okay, one of a lot of things) i love about breaking bad is it slowly builds you up to accepting basically everything walter does as necessary or acceptable until the final season, when you realize how awful a person he is.

then you go back and watch it again, and wonder how you ever accepted his ridiculous, selfish behavior.

man what a good show. great character too.
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spooky96 posted...

Yeah when I say that Walter White is a good character, I mean he's well written. Just like something like Joker.

scientific proof that The Joker is a better person than Walter White
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I found Walt likable all the way. Obviously he does a lot of terrible things but I still found myself rooting for him the whole time.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

It's very important to also note that while Walt says he's doing things to help his family, their well-being matters less to him than the fact that they're relying on him and he's helping them on his own terms. He's managed to turn helping people he cares about into something selfish.

I mean, all of this is 100% true. But I guess I just sympathize with Walt's particular brand of selfishness.

Here's a guy who once had dreams and ambitions, but has settled for mediocrity in every aspect of his life -- his dead-end job, his dead-end family relationships. He's burnt out. He's just going through the motions of life, and were it not for his cancer, he would have continued doing so until he died. Meth changes all that: he can finally be the best. His name is known and feared. He can live life on his own terms. (Sorta. I mean, it's not perfect, but better than being the browbeaten husband who can't even decide who's invited to his own party.)

So yeah you could call it an adolescent power fantasy, and it leads to a lot of reprehensible actions, but I still liked it as power fantasy. This middle-aged middle-class nobody becoming the kingpin Heisenberg. No matter how far he took it, I couldn't stop rooting for him.
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Naye745 posted...

then you go back and watch it again, and wonder how you ever accepted his ridiculous, selfish behavior.

they do this well by sliding the scale of who is against him just enough to keep you on his side

I mean at the very end he was up against literal nazis.
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I liked him but I can see it if other people don't like him

he becomes very arrogant then he starts groveling when hes cornered

His actions are somewhat justified until a certain point, then they're just excuses and he destroys everything around him


He was a good main character that drove most of the show
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