Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Id/Sephiroth/Zack Fair/Revan vs. Vergil/Kratos/The Lich King/Sora/Akuma

(+) Yeah! (+)

Arthas dueled Illidan as a scrub deathknight, who's decently fast

So no quite true imo
---

Johnbobb posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

It's reasonable so long as you don't argue Sora > Seph solo

If you do, 'lol' and I say that as his former owner

I don't think Sora solos Seph, but I put them at close to a stalemate. I view Sora as one of the highest 5s (whose all but a 6) and Seph as one of the lower 6s

Seph literally shrugs off Sora after they fight a little. Sephiroth is way his superior.
---

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Arthas dueled Illidan as a scrub deathknight, who's decently fast

So no quite true imo

No one in Wow is fast.
---

Welcome to Mercs, where feats in a given universe are mapped out and transposed into fights that have never happened. Yes, Arthas has not faced Revan before, that's right!

But if it makes you feel better Arthas can be the support to Vergil beating the hell out of your team if that makes any difference. The real point here is its 5 v 4 and you possess 0 mercs who can win a 2 v 1.
---

I think Sora can absolutely check Sephiroth.
Same with Akuma and Zack.

This is your problem. Revan and Id are good but no one of them can reasonably check Vergil and Arthas and fucking God of War Kratos who is IMO actually the best merc on that side in this match.
---

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Welcome to Mercs, where feats in a given universe are mapped out and transposed into fights that have never happened. Yes, Arthas has not faced Revan before, that's right!

But if it makes you feel better Arthas can be the support to Vergil beating the hell out of your team if that makes any difference. The real point here is its 5 v 4 and you possess 0 mercs who can win a 2 v 1.

Well, fights do not resolve that way thankfully. They do not tidily just say hey you 1v1 this guy while these 2 take this guy etc.


And that is why Revans Mind Meld is invaluable. It makes them fight as one instead of just a ragtag group of... dare I say it... Mercenaries?


Also, if you wanna argue they charge down the steps as a group of melee. Then REVAN'S STEALTH should easily be able to pick off a merc for free there to even the odds.
---

Eddv posted...

I think Sora can absolutely check Sephiroth.

Okay no this is stupid. There is direct contradictory evidence to this.
---

trdl iirc weren't you the one who really had super low Sora respect. It was someone that always made me go 'wow, really?" and I think it was you because Master Form Sora should have no problem checking Sephiroth for a time even if I think Sephiroth wins that in the end. Final Form of course wins that clean but that isn't here.

Anyway Corrik yeah it is true but I just don't see how your team is going to do anything here to win. I mean I can see it if you were right and Kratos was shit like you're trying to say or if Arthas was shit like you want us to believe but that's not really the case here.
---

Personally I think Akuma and Sora are the weakest mercs on the field. Zack's durability, buffs, and healing put him way above Sora's squishy glass cannon self.
---

Akuma is always going to remain one of those weird Mercs to me that I think people just look at his feats and go "nope, going to ignore that now" just because they can. I don't own the guy any more, I have no stake, and it genuinely confuses me when people just kind of ignore his feats - 5-6 of them even - to justify him being 'bad' <_<
---

DoomTheGyarados posted...

trdl iirc weren't you the one who really had super low Sora respect. It was someone that always made me go 'wow, really?" and I think it was you because Master Form Sora should have no problem checking Sephiroth for a time even if I think Sephiroth wins that in the end. Final Form of course wins that clean but that isn't here.

Anyway Corrik yeah it is true but I just don't see how your team is going to do anything here to win. I mean I can see it if you were right and Kratos was shit like you're trying to say or if Arthas was shit like you want us to believe but that's not really the case here.

Neither is shit. Just neither are fighting what is what they are good for here. Now say Sephiroth was Diablo and I would say Kratos would fuck Diablo up. It is what he excels atm. Now say Arthas was fighting say Tidus, Zack Fair, Squall, Zell, and Luca Blight. I would say Arthas arguably even solos that. Just because no one plays to his weaknesses there..

There is a reason I say Arthas could maybe do something to Revan. There is a reason I say Zack Fair is toast vs Arthas. But there is also a reason I say ID (who is being majorly overlooked here) and Sephiroth (just look at his video above and see the carnage he is causing to heavy metal tonnage all over the place and his range) are his weaknesses.
---

So let's say Sephiroth and Sora just fight this out in the sky. Sephiroth wins. Then just nukes from.above. what defense does the other team even have to this?
---

Revan could pull Sora from the sky and butcher him, and I am pretty sure Vergil can leap so high it's like he can fly.
---

And before death grip is mentioned. I am almost positive deathgrip only works on the ground.
---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVkEGnfP5x4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZmj6Y0-N6E&feature=youtu.be&t=1m51s

really just don't get where all the "weak akuma" stuff comes from
---

Hey I avoided mentioning Arthas there just for you, Corrik! I am mixing it up!
---

Johnbobb posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVkEGnfP5x4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZmj6Y0-N6E&feature=youtu.be&t=1m51s

really just don't get where all the "weak akuma" stuff comes from

The fact everyone else has a sword to just stab through him and kill him in one shot. He is by far the weakest person in the match.
---

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Hey I avoided mentioning Arthas there just for you, Corrik! I am mixing it up!

Ty
---

Nearly every feat of Akuma's come from lolfightinggameendings.

Meanwhile he's retroactively been incapable of killing a single person with his ultimate technique that he exclusively relies on.
---

Corrik posted...

The fact everyone else has a sword to just stab through him and kill him in one shot. He is by far the weakest person in the match.

-Watches someone destroy an island with their fist
-"weak"
---

I am all for lolendings but when they give you 5-6 of them I start to buy in.
---

Johnbobb posted...

Corrik posted...

The fact everyone else has a sword to just stab through him and kill him in one shot. He is by far the weakest person in the match.

-Watches someone destroy an island with their fist
-"weak"

Sorry you can't fathom it.
---

trdl23 posted...

Eddv posted...

I think Sora can absolutely check Sephiroth.

Okay no this is stupid. There is direct contradictory evidence to this.

That direct contradictory evidence involved Sora fighting him to a draw - surviving at any rate.
---

Eddv posted...

trdl23 posted...

Eddv posted...

I think Sora can absolutely check Sephiroth.

Okay no this is stupid. There is direct contradictory evidence to this.

That direct contradictory evidence involved Sora fighting him to a draw - surviving at any rate.

You mean where they fight for awhile then Sephiroth shrugs him off and is like lol go get cloud so I can actually have a challenge?
---

To answer Chris, yes, I have super low Sora respect, and part of it is probably because I despise his series so, so much. I fully admit to that.

Also thanks to SF5, Zangief has canon feats about psycho-drive-infused sword strikes shattering off his MUSCLE SPIRIT. I think Akuma's quite a few tiers up from the Red Cyclone lore-wise...
---

Re: seph vs sora, Sora impresses Seph. Not even Cloud who defeats him gets this. Yes, seph isn't tryharding, but neither was he when fighting Cloud
---

Arthas & Friends

My issue is mainly that I don't believe that anyone not named Zack Fair or Akuma dies quickly here. Everyone present has some form of great durability showing, and I fully buy "being an endgame raid boss" as having a character be durable as much as I buy "being a super powerful god of the waveform" or whatever Id's deal is. My issue is that this does end up favoring Arthas and friends just due to the sheer amount of ways to screw with the environment and cause passive damage Arthas has. If "could cleave in half" was something I bought and Arthas ate it fast, I'd probably go for the team that doesn't have the character that ruined MVC3 just as hard as Morrigan (on an unbiased perspective, I take AoE > Direct Damage in team fights and Sephiroth, Revan and Id are much more reliable than Sora, Kratos and Vergil in that department). But then Arthas is there to essentially cause all sorts of passive interruptions, flinches, and weakness in what needs to be a strong, uninterrupted fighting style. Revan could theoretically also pull this off, but he has to tangle with one of the unchecked threats of Kratos or Vergil (since Sora Vs Sephiroth seems to just be an accepted thing by now), and while I think whoever between him or Id gets Kratos has a fairly easy fight in front of them for a 1 Vs 1, that again leaves King Frosty free to be cold and make shitty minions and give everyone the plague and stuff.
---

Lich King is the lynchpin that ties this all together. No one is going to be able to check him with someone of comparable strength all up in their grill, which lets him wreck shop.
---

FFDragon posted...

Lich King is the lynchpin that ties this all together. No one is going to be able to check him with someone of comparable strength all up in their grill, which lets him wreck shop.

There is no way there is not gonna be ring outs in this scenario. Not a single person has commented that Revan has stealth also.

Stop overlooking the match up write up.
---

Kratos has this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yft4hsY595w
---

Corrik posted...

Stop overlooking the match up write up.

You know people would probably like it more if you didn't arbitrarily accuse them of not reading when they vote against you
---

Lopen posted...

Yeah don't really buy the choke working out. It is thick and the enemy team is gonna be charging since they're all melee. Impossible to hold em all-- if one breaks through that breaks up an attempt to siege a choke.

Vergil has short range teleports that can cover most of the ground. Akuma has a sliding warp thing. Sora glides. Kratos has those boots that let him dash fast. Might be effective vs Arthas but at least one's getting through and then yeah since I don't consider any choke strat an instant win the others would get through. And then they're just outmatched

Team Vergil

this, including the vote.

also arthas is apparently a pro debuffer, which is pretty bad if you're trying to fight vergil
---

Kamekguy posted...

My issue is mainly that I don't believe that anyone not named Zack Fair or Akuma dies quickly here. Everyone present has some form of great durability showing

Zack has a great durability showing! He holds off a whole army of machine gunners and copters for a decent amount of time (before dying, but y'know, it was a whole army). He's just completely outclassed when it comes to the actual "fighting" part of this battle.

tbh I generally think of Cloud as Active Form and Zack as Defense Form
---

Johnbobb posted...

Corrik posted...

Stop overlooking the match up write up.

You know people would probably like it more if you didn't arbitrarily accuse them of not reading when they vote against you

Not a single person has referenced cloak and not a single person has mentioned it in their response. Not a single person in your team can even see cloaked units to my knowledge.
---

cloak

now I referenced it
---

Drakeryn posted...

Kamekguy posted...

My issue is mainly that I don't believe that anyone not named Zack Fair or Akuma dies quickly here. Everyone present has some form of great durability showing

Zack has a great durability showing! He holds off a whole army of machine gunners and copters for a decent amount of time (before dying, but y'know, it was a whole army).

I admittedly forgot about the helicopters. I thought it was just "people shoot you for like seven minutes until you die". Which I thought was good but not on the same level.
---

this, including the vote.

also arthas is apparently a pro debuffer, which is pretty bad if you're trying to fight vergil

For reference, since I'm a neutral party with no particular hype over Arthas, this is what his raid gives him and I found notable (source: http://www.wowhead.com/npc=36597/the-lich-king#abilities):

-Berserk: Increases attack speed by 150% and damage by 900%. This is possibly his enrage, someone confirm, if so ignore this.
-Defile: Autoplaced trap AoE underneath a random target. Any enemies caught are dealt shadow damage and the zone grows based on how many it hits.
-Ice Lock: Traps enemy in ice, unable to move. Has no end duration listed but I assume it's got one.
-Infest: Deals Shadow damage to all enemies within 60 yards (or 60 meters if you prefer). They're dealt continuous, and increasingly higher and higher damage, until they're healed back up to 90%+ HP.
-Necrotic Plague: Hits the target with a plague that does massive damage (50 thousand - for reference Infest dealt an initial 6600 thousand or so) every 5 seconds for 15 seconds. If the target dies before the effect ends, it extends by 5 seconds and jumps to another target. If dispelled, it's instead shortened by 5 seconds and jumps to a nearby enemy target.
-Raging Spirit: Creates a clone of a target within 100 yards, causing it to attack them.
-Remorseless Winter: Creates an ice storm that deals about 10k shadow damage per second to all enemies within 40 yards.
-Soul Reaper: Strikes a target, dealing half Arthas' basic attack damage. After 5 seconds, deals 50k damage and gives him doubled attack and cast speed for 5 secs.
-Shadow Trap: Creates a trap that deals shadow damage to all enemies within ten yards of it and knocks them back - around 20k damage or so.

Numbers I've found say a Cataclysm-era endgame hero has about 120k HP or so. This means Arthas can twoshot or threeshot opponents much stronger than the ones who faced him with some of his abilities. Notably, he doesn't get the Death Grip Chris mentioned. That's a Deathknight (the player class) ability. Your call whether he gets it or not. I lean 'no' because it clearly says 'bossfight and HotS'.

Speaking of, Heroes of the Storm stuff he gets (reference page: http://www.heroesfire.com/hots/wiki/heroes/arthas/abilities-talents):

-Death Coil: Hits a target for a solid chunk of damage. Can be selfcast to heal Arthas by about 10% of his HP, every 9 seconds.
-Howling Blast: Roots enemies in an area for 1.25 seconds, cooldown of 10 seconds.
-Frozen Tempest: Damaging field around Arthas that slows enemy movespeed and attack speed by 10% per second to a maximum of 40% if enemies linger around him.
-Summon Sindragosa/Army of the Dead: Ultimate abilities that he does not in fact get here, since one's his ability and the other's a summon that isn't explicitly allowed.

Talents can make Death Coil heal even when hitting opponents or reduce its cooldown by 3 seconds, reduce Howling Blast's cooldown by 2 secs and make it root everything in the path to the target area as well, or make Frozen Tempest root enemies if they take three instances of damage from it, once every 10 seconds (or speed Arthas' attack speed by up to 60% as it damages dudes). It's uncertain what talents he gets exactly, and we might clarify this because nobody enjoys Schrödinger's Mercenary, but some combination of these is feasible. So basically you really really don't want to linger close to him because he will passively make you awful, you want dispellers around or he wrecks you (same for healers), he can make a clone to fight you, trap you in ice, and he heals himself for a fat chuk of HP every 10 seconds unless you disrupt his ability to cast blade magic spells consistently. Dude's pretty good for sure, though not as good as Chris would claim I feel.
---

Oh hey, NUMBERZ from our very own gfaqs!

https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/534914-world-of-warcraft/56675819

Arthas twoshots dudes who were prepped for HP in his expansion, before resists. Post resists I'm not sure because I don't play WoW and never have. I assume tanks can probably soak at least a few more blows, but this gives you an idea of what those numbers above mean in the context of how Arthas was defeated.
---

Re: Ringouts Corrik, here's the problem: It assumed TK is completely irresistible. I'm a telekinesis mark (as @Lopen can confirm, we've butted heads over this before when I said I bought The President TK-grabbing Dante until he died), but the problem is that telekinesis is basically magically applied force. If you have sufficient force of your own you could probably no-sell it. If there's something Kratos has, it's force, and Arthas is so ensorcelled that he has arguments to resist as well (not the least of which is access to Antimagic Shell and Icebound Fortitude, talents that make him briefly completely immune to magic damage and stunning and rooting CC from HotS.). Vergil has teleports galore, so he can be ringed out but he'll also get back in, Sora can glide and Akuma teleports too. Basically there's no really good targets here because even a TK master like Revan (who has really good TK featz, I'll see if I can find them) will have issues ragdolling these dudes effectively. It's a good strat, the competition here is just too hax for it to work reliably.
---

I do not think it is something that he tries to ragdoll them into. I am saying there is bound to be a situation in this small arena where someone is just on the edge and a sudden Force Push takes them by surprise.
---

Now imagine how much HP a Big Bang would cause in damage if applied to Wow. A spell that is the force of the universe exploding.

Arthas hits for what 10k or something.

So like 183,730,704,078 trillion?

Imagine what a guy who rips through a floating city in seconds and destroying it must have in Damage output.

Then imagine what megatons of damage to someone which results in not even a scratch due to the absorption of Damage via literally God that he possesses equates to in damage able to sustain.


Id outclasses Arthas in damage and in durability.

Id also outclasses Vergil in both categories. Vergil, however, is a more interesting fight and dynamic due to speeds.
---

remember what I said earlier about bad faith arguments

this is that
---

And, Defile would hurt Arthas' own team so I doubt much of that would be laid about or used... or it would be a lot of friendly fire damage.
---

FFDragon posted...

remember what I said earlier about bad faith arguments

this is that

Just because you do not agree with something does not make you right or it a wrong argument. Id is debated with Goku and Marvel Cosmics on other websites.

Arthas is not even a top 5 powerful character in Wow.
---

Corrik posted...

FFDragon posted...

remember what I said earlier about bad faith arguments

this is that

Just because you do not agree with something does not make you right or it a wrong argument. Id is debated with Goku and Marvel Cosmics on other websites.

Arthas is not even a top 5 powerful character in Wow.

FFD hold my beer.

Who are the top 5 powerful characters in WoW?
---

DoomTheGyarados posted...

FFD hold my beer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efei6R5oKOQ
---

Arthas to Id in pure power is like debating that Sauron is stronger than Eru Iluvatar in LOTR.

Arthas is below many in his own game. Id is literally the avatar of the God of the universe. He breaks the universal dimension. Has multiversal power by the end of his game.
---

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Corrik posted...

FFDragon posted...

remember what I said earlier about bad faith arguments

this is that

Just because you do not agree with something does not make you right or it a wrong argument. Id is debated with Goku and Marvel Cosmics on other websites.

Arthas is not even a top 5 powerful character in Wow.

FFD hold my beer.

Who are the top 5 powerful characters in WoW?

I do not know the top 5 but I will tell you 5 stronger than Arthas.

1. Sargeras
2. Kil Jaeden
3. Archimonde
4. Medivh
5. Alexstrasza
---

Top 3 I can buy

Medivh and Alex surprise me
---

Um.

Medivh and Alex? Really? You think a lone dragon aspect could take down Arthas?
---