Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Lightning/Kyo/Alucard /Morrigan/Tira vs. Crono/Sabin/Leon /Terra

(+) Yeah! (+)

I mean I can understand the argument that bravery would work -- however it's really the wording. "Physical" attack.
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Wanglicious posted...

mm... edgar, vincent, eddv has a point with setzer too.

hell, it'd work on the Magitek armor too wouldn't it?
i mean i get the argument, i just am more entertained by the fact that it's being made really clear why broken means broken.

Valor is something Sabin always has so it's not dependent on Terra. Yeah, this is kind of a weird time to discuss it since there's a behemoth of a merc on Sabin's side, but it's worth hashing out in advance since it really does make his entire team more valuable if it buffs Leon.
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Eddv posted...

Its magic.

The bullets hit harder because magic.

I buy this.

Strength buff wouldn't do anything, but a damage buff that works on autocrossbow should work on a gun too.

Not that it likely matters here, it's basically the Lightning vs. Terra show.
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Yeah just to clarify, if this was a 'strength buff' I totally buy it not working on guns. But it's just 'physical damage'. To me if the gun isn't hitting with some magic bullshit it probably benefits from it (example: I wouldn't take Fetch from Infamous to gain anything from it because she fires superpowered neon, which is 'magical' by most reckonings. Jim Raynor's gauss rifle would benefit tho).
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and I highly disagree with that premise
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greengravy294 posted...

I mean I can understand the argument that bravery would work -- however it's really the wording. "Physical" attack.

Its physical as in not magical.
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it's ranged as in not physical
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ranged/melee is a totally different category than magic/physical tbh

you can have ranged physical just as easily as melee magic (like a blade made out of magical energy or something)
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See, I disagree there too. Projectiles just don't get the benefits of physical buffs.

I'm going to be honest there is nothing you can say that will make me budge on this one.

It's as deeply rooted as my SSB animated trophies beliefs.
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addendum: thrown projectiles would
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Question FFD

Would a generic '+ATK' buff benefit guns? Or do absolutely no buffs that aren't specifically gun focused (like uhh, how one of Lilith's guns fires shots that multiply by 3 after a certain distance) work on guns?
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yeah I mean, neither of us is changing our minds, it's just interesting

there's even a (small) subset of ranged attacks where a straight-up strength buff would work. like a giant throwing boulders.
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dammit
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What if the buff was used on the gun itself instead of the party member.
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I don't think anything that isn't gun specific would work.
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

What if the buff was used on the gun itself instead of the party member.

That is kind of interesting. I'm not sure if buffs work on inanimate objects. Like casting Protect on a sword to make it less likely to break.

Intuitively I lean no, but on the other hand it's kinda cool, which makes me want to say yes.
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so you would say you can turn a pump action shotgun into a minigun by casting haste on it?
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Objects can't get buffs unless the buff can target objects. Play some damn D&D jeez.
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see I want to say yes because it's clever (and because I can't think of a good reason why Haste would work on a robot party member but not work on a gun)

but it also feels kinda goofy

so, probably not?
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Lopen posted...

Objects can't get buffs unless the buff can target objects. Play some damn D&D jeez.

I mean that's pretty much game mechanics though. What stops a spell from being targeted at an object? Does the magic have a 'life' condition? What is the difference between someone like Robo in CT and a gun for the purposes of a buff?
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The mechanics exist for a reason.

What limits what magic can target? Simple: Magic.
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FFDragon posted...

so you would say you can turn a pump action shotgun into a minigun by casting haste on it?

'want'
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also, this takes me back to when people were arguing that cure spells wouldn't work on KOS-MOS

good(?) times
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You probably can't buff a robot unless it's AI.

When the AI becomes sufficiently advanced the robot develops a "soul" so to speak.

That's what video games tell me anyway.
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I mean I don't think it matters for this match mind you or anything but I see no reason why buff spells can't target objects other than our preconceived notions.
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My take is that this kind of move is creative enough that I wanna say it should work. Like, take Shirou's reinforcement - that's a magic that works both on people and objects. It's the exact same magic, it just does different things depending on the target. On a person it makes them run faster, punch stronger, jump higher. On a sword it makes it tougher and it cuts better. Seems logical most magic would work that way too unless explicitly stated otherwise.
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eaedwards6400 posted...

Morrigan and Tiro

I'm going to allow this
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You say it's logical, I say it's illogical.
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I don't know who owns team Terra, but you're welcome!

This is the type of genius tactics that led me to being pretty good at mercs before I go on a rampage and murder everything and quit.

VINTAGE SIR CHRIS.
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I also agree it doesn't change this match.

But there will be a match at some point where it will.
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I am actually in your camp that casting haste on a PERSON doesn't affect guns.

But I see nothing that prevents haste being cast ON a gun. Or some other type of spell. Now a 'strength' spell probably wouldn't impress me but something that, say, makes the gun/bullets 'heavier' for more impact 'sure'
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If "magic" isn't good enough for you use the Fate/Stay Night lore of buffs targeting the person's magical circuits or whatever.

Like you're trying to say something that doesn't ever get shown to work on objects should work for em because "why not" when the "why not" can really just boil down to some BS about the nature of magic or whatever, because it's magic. Why are certain monsters immune to sleep or petrify?
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Magic resistance I suspect.

Believe what you want, I'll believe what I want. I just don't see a 'why not' other than it just isn't in the game mechanics a lot of times. In fact there is all sorts of 'buffing' magic that does work on weaponry throughout games - it is just in a different games system. Enchanting weapons is pretty common really.
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I feel like if you could buff objects, any of the million rpg characters would have taken advantage of it by now. They don't do it because... well, they can't.
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well, on the matter of healing and robots, there's plenty of mecha with magic out there that do have the mechs screwed. like if that thing gets damaged, you can't really heal it.

would believe there's a difference between a robot capable of thought and a mech/object that can't. guns would fall in the latter.
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And weapon enchantments are different than buffs.
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How are weapon enchantments different from buffs?
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Enchanting weapons is usually its own specific school of magic is the thing, even in the games that allow it. Like you don't just cast a destruction spell on your sword in Skyrim to make a flaming sword. You need the enhancement school or whatever.

Like you can't really call it game mechanics when the mechanics in games to target objects vs living things exist as separate constructs in pretty much all representations of magic
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Like the fundamental issue here isn't "they never thought about casting haste on a sword"

The issue is "they did in many many things, and whenever it happens it's a different spell or skill used to do it" which kinda throws the whole gameplay mechanics argument out of the window.
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...actually lemme go down that road.

say you've got a mech. weltall, xenoblade, something from armored core, whatever.

- can you heal it with a cure spell?
- can you buff the robot?
or are these impossible because you can't buff something like that?

i mean if we're talking RPGs, they do tend to have something important break and you don't have other cast members go "oh don't worry about your broken pendant/jewel/necklace, i'll just cast a heal spell on it." it's just broken.
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bonus question: do buffs work on the Star Dragon Sword?
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Why not, it's a 'living' weapon
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What prevents Morrigan from seducing Crono and having his devil spawn before the next match?
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Lightning.

She has more than enough tools to take on flying enemies that she significantly outclasses. Throughout the series, it's pretty commonplace to fight airships from on-foot, and in cutscene by XIII-2, she takes on Caius who creates a giant floating rock and gets up to him no problem, along with fighting him atop skyscrapers and so on.
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Sorry for being late.

I basically echo KJH sentiments. Lightning vastly overpowers everyone on the field. Beyond that, Lightning buffs + Morrigan buffs via enhancements tree give the tram (and Lightning) a great deal of help. I'd like to specifically point out that with the anti-magic spell tree, Morrigan has access to plenty of dispels as well as complete magic nullifying shields, which she can cast on Lightning as well as mdef boosts as well.

Lightning and Morrigan have heals. Sure, Terra can go after Alucard, but if she is then Lightning is not being attacked. I think that we can all agree that Lightning > Terra and Lightnings backup (mostly due to Alucard) is > than Terras backup. Morrigan anti-magic and buffs/healing put it over the top imo
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Eddv posted...

Considering Alucard jobs really fast to Break here... Terra does have better support, given that Sabin has a support build.

Toss in the mountainous terrain and the fact that Leon is the only gunner on the field and this is a match.

Also, Alucard doesn't even job really fast to break. He's probably going to be hastee + Morrigans haste spell (they aren't both haste so they'd both impact him) or possibly even magic resistance. I doubt Terra can easily determine if an enemy has complete magic resistance temporarily via Morrigan, and Alucard and especially Lightning can really take care of things with these buffs + mdef
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...we don't agree that Lightning > Terra, no. not this Terra, that's the entire issue. and Lightning's backup isn't as good either since Terra's gives a very clear terrain advantage in knowledge, placement, and ability to ruin different chokepoints on the map. like in raw combat, yeah your support's better but as far as functioning as support, Terra's side is light years ahead.
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Source:

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Spirit_spells_(Origins

Activated
Range: Medium
Activation: 40
Cooldown: 30s
Requires: 25 magicThe caster wards an ally against all spells and spell effects, beneficial or hostile, for a short time.
Duration: 10s.
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Lightning >> Terra in a terrain with a roof. the whole "unlimited flight" thing is my hangup here
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MajinZidane posted...

Eddv posted...

Considering Alucard jobs really fast to Break here... Terra does have better support, given that Sabin has a support build.

Toss in the mountainous terrain and the fact that Leon is the only gunner on the field and this is a match.

Also, Alucard doesn't even job really fast to break. He's probably going to be hastee + Morrigans haste spell (they aren't both haste so they'd both impact him) or possibly even magic resistance. I doubt Terra can easily determine if an enemy has complete magic resistance temporarily via Morrigan, and Alucard and especially Lightning can really take care of things with these buffs + mdef

Petrification like one of the few things in SOTN that really fucks alucard up
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