Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Lightning/Kyo/Alucard /Morrigan/Tira vs. Crono/Sabin/Leon /Terra

(+) Yeah! (+)

Team Crono

Eddv posted...

MajinZidane posted...

Eddv posted...

Considering Alucard jobs really fast to Break here... Terra does have better support, given that Sabin has a support build.

Toss in the mountainous terrain and the fact that Leon is the only gunner on the field and this is a match.

Also, Alucard doesn't even job really fast to break. He's probably going to be hastee + Morrigans haste spell (they aren't both haste so they'd both impact him) or possibly even magic resistance. I doubt Terra can easily determine if an enemy has complete magic resistance temporarily via Morrigan, and Alucard and especially Lightning can really take care of things with these buffs + mdef

Petrification like one of the few things in SOTN that really fucks alucard up

I'm not taking about base Alucard, I'm talking about hasted Alcard with anti-magic backup from Morrigan
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I mean, if you constantly reapplied it maybe. What I get out of Castlevania games is most major characters SotN and beyond react to petrification most of the time by quite literally walking it off. >_>
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Yeah alucard does not no-sell petrification

he gets owned by medusa heads, dude gets WRECKED by break.

He's probably going to be hastee + Morrigans haste spell (they aren't both haste so they'd both impact him)

Morrigan doesn't have haste

That's her fourth tier spell, she explicitly only has the first three tiers before char upgrade.
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....uh... the two biggest attacks terra has... don't care for your raising your defenses. petrification isn't really reliant on magic defense and graviga's a 75% hit, buffs be damned in the game. i mean if your interp of that difers a bit in that the number's not exact, okay, but at that point you're dealing with probably stunned and super slow moving character, which ain't helpful.

...and... your point of reference for a spell there is one that needs to be activated, has a cooldown of 30s, and lasts 10s. i mean yeah it helps but that's not a very spammable spell. it's not something that you'd think would be put on Lightning either way considering she's got Kyo guarding her too.

Drakeryn posted...

Lightning >> Terra in a terrain with a roof. the whole "unlimited flight" thing is my hangup here

unlimited flight
magic spam
teleportation spell
petrification spell
spell that creates strong gravity effects and has a massive HP cut

this particular Terra's just kicking up a huge way from what she ordinarily is. add in that she also has personal knowledge of the terrain and one of her allies is much more aware of it, that's a factor too.
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How good is Lightning's magic offense? Is she Barret-esque "she can do it but she sux" or is she actually good?

Wanglicious posted...

petrification spell

Endgame Lightning probably has a Ribbon anyway?

sux for Alucard though
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i'd still say graviga's the more dangerous spell. petrification ain't AoE, graviva is and it sets 'em up for a followup spell or bullet to the head quite nicely.
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Drakeryn posted...

How good is Lightning's magic offense? Is she Barret-esque "she can do it but she sux" or is she actually good?

Wanglicious posted...

petrification spell

Endgame Lightning probably has a Ribbon anyway?

sux for Alucard though

Lightning is good at magic a bit over Barrett level but her actually good abilities like army of one and artemis arrows are melee phys
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MajinZidane posted...

Beyond that, Lightning buffs

Kan says she has no buffs.
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How good is Lightning's magic offense? Is she Barret-esque "she can do it but she sux" or is she actually good?

Lightning's magic is kinda dumb because all her big spells are hot garbage compared to the -ra spells. Due to how Lightning Returns works, you spend your time trying to stagger enemies to deal them MASSIVE AND CONVINCING DAMAGE (and otherwise deal chipping damage). For this reason the primary spells she uses are -ra spells for single target and -ga spells for multitarget, as they have shorter cast times in a game where enemies WILL punch the crap out of you while you cast. She has a total of 12 moves plus her EP abilities, and if I had to guess they'd be something like the following:

-Garb 1: Aerora, Heavy Slash, Blitz, Mediguard
-Garb 2: Slowga, Imperilga, Debravega, Defaithga
-Garb 3: Disaster, Deshellga, Deprotega, Ultima

This isn't a perfect setup by any means, but sems about right. Lightning is honestly a pretty limited character in what she can do. Being restricted to her three garbs of four moves each gives her a small arsenal than say, Sephiroth or Exdeath.
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If anybody feels like not taking me at my word btw:

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Lightning_Returns:_Final_Fantasy_XIII_abilities

Full list of the abilities seen in Lightning Returns. You'll note that the only buffing abilities are on the Angel of Valhalla, who is a guest party member, and only protect/shell regardless. Lightning doesn't buff, she debuffs other dudes. Her debuff arsenal is very legit mind, and shouldn't be discounted, but it's very much worth pointing out that she's not a team player. She makes other dudes suck shit, she doesn't make her allies shine. Fitting for her, huh?
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Also re: Ribbon there ARE items like that in LR buut you only have 2 accessory slots which in an optimal setting youre probably having set to be ATB recovery and hand to hand (which ends buffs on a melee strike) when she's in her offensive schemata (soldier of peace)

Even in her recovery schemata(usually Quiet Guardian) the odds that she chose Ribbon over somethibg that is a 90% boost to MDef or Def or HP or ATB recovery are slim.

And her third schemata is usually the one that boosts her casting (Martial Monk usually).

Here is a guy giving a rundown of the bog standard best setup - which us quite good but doesnt really include much if any ailment resistance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U21Y4JrYHPY
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hmm

As Boko posted, Morrigan's Anti-Magic Ward makes an ally immune to all magic for 10 seconds. But the spell has a cooldown of 30 seconds, so you have to make it count. I was thinking Lightning could use that time to cast. Not that she needs to straight-up win a casting battle against Terra -- just needs to knock her out of her flight path and into melee range. If she does that then I think she can unleash a DEVASTATING MELEE COMBO.

re: Graviga: According to the FF wiki at least, it doesn't work against enemies who are immune to Death. So Lightning is presumably okay. Dunno if Alucard has any anti-instant-death.
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If anybody wants Lightning's top showing, on that note, this is it:

https://youtu.be/3DAqYFmn8vY?t=206

Keep in mind she's more limited in her capabilities here than she is in the 13-2 prologue simply because she's locked into twelve specific moves, but Lightning does defeat the purple-haired dude seen in this vid, Caius Ballad, in Lightning Returns. Caius is Sephiroth++ and arguably the strongest human FF villain ever - so being able to match up to him in this vid and defeat him in LR is pretty impressive.
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oh I got ninja'd. point on accessories. that does make things more interesting
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

If anybody feels like not taking me at my word btw:

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Lightning_Returns:_Final_Fantasy_XIII_abilities

Full list of the abilities seen in Lightning Returns. You'll note that the only buffing abilities are on the Angel of Valhalla, who is a guest party member, and only protect/shell regardless. Lightning doesn't buff, she debuffs other dudes. Her debuff arsenal is very legit mind, and shouldn't be discounted, but it's very much worth pointing out that she's not a team player. She makes other dudes suck shit, she doesn't make her allies shine. Fitting for her, huh?

This is plot in LR.

She literally only cares about two people : Serra and Hope and both relationships are used to blackmail her all through LR
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Drakeryn posted...

hmm

As Boko posted, Morrigan's Anti-Magic Ward makes an ally immune to all magic for 10 seconds. But the spell has a cooldown of 30 seconds, so you have to make it count. I was thinking Lightning could use that time to cast. Not that she needs to straight-up win a casting battle against Terra -- just needs to knock her out of her flight path and into melee range. If she does that then I think she can unleash a DEVASTATING MELEE COMBO.

re: Graviga: According to the FF wiki at least, it doesn't work against enemies who are immune to Death. So Lightning is presumably okay. Dunno if Alucard has any anti-instant-death.

Worth noting that if Morrigan brings out Antimagic Ward, Terra can bust out Ultima. Considering Ultima pierces MDEF and punches through reflect in FF6, it at least is worth talking about and seeing which spell beats which.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Worth noting that if Morrigan brings out Antimagic Ward, Terra can bust out Ultima. Considering Ultima pierces MDEF and punches through reflect in FF6, it at least is worth talking about and seeing which spell beats which.

In-game, Anti-Magic Ward can't be dispelled by Dispel Magic (another thing Morrigan has). So by the same token I think it would be nonpierceable.
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also wow she only cares about two people and one of them is literally hope get your priorities straight girl
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just when you think she can't get any worse
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Drakeryn posted...

also wow she only cares about two people and one of them is literally hope get your priorities straight girl

I know right?!

Like Lightning's setup in LR is super comical because it presents her as a character so well. Maximum selfishness and ruining other people's day.

Terra, on that note. My problem with assuming Morrigan drops an antimagic ward on Lightning is that she only gets to do it once, if that. Leon is not gonna let her do it again and he has an immense range advantage over everyone on the enemy team. Alucard could close in on him, but Terra makes him job super hard to Break and at that point anyone can pop him. Tira and Kyo don't add much...so yeah this is basically 'can lightning solo' and I feel like she can't.
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Ok, for real. When has Break ever been in plot or even against your party ever been something that was a surefire guarantee? It feels really stupid to hype it, like hyping if some slipup gave Yu "Mudoon" in a fight.
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Final Fantasy IV
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KJH posted...

Ok, for real. When has Break ever been in plot or even against your party ever been something that was a surefire guarantee? It feels really stupid to hype it, like hyping if some slipup gave Yu "Mudoon" in a fight.

Castlevania, where medusa heads petrify you to hell. Which is what matters because the key thing it needs to do is set Alucard up to get blown up by Leon.
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Man, Morrigan still helps loads versus break
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Drakeryn posted...

also wow she only cares about two people and one of them is literally hope get your priorities straight girl

I know right?!

Like Lightning's setup in LR is super comical because it presents her as a character so well. Maximum selfishness and ruining other people's day.

Terra, on that note. My problem with assuming Morrigan drops an antimagic ward on Lightning is that she only gets to do it once, if that. Leon is not gonna let her do it again and he has an immense range advantage over everyone on the enemy team. Alucard could close in on him, but Terra makes him job super hard to Break and at that point anyone can pop him. Tira and Kyo don't add much...so yeah this is basically 'can lightning solo' and I feel like she can't.

See, this I disagree with because I don't think Morrigan needs to spam anti magic. I think if she protects Lightning from one or two spells then Terra is toast. I think if she protects Alucard from one or two spells then Terra is similarly toast because she's focusing the wrong person. Basically, for Terra to win, she has to both immediately target Lightning before anybody else and Morrigan has to not anti- magic her.

Plus, Terra doesn't even know that Lightning is the most threatening opposition on the field. I'd argue that in a vacuum, the thin girl with pink hair and not much armor doesn't appear to be be public enemy #1
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Yes well, my Lightning respect vs someone who takes one quarter damage from magic, AKA the only way she has to attack Terra, who also flies super fast, and who nukes like a boss is kind of not that great. Put this on a roofed terrain and Lightning cleans house, but she's gonna get kited to death here.
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Plus, Morrigan is more than just her complete magic immunity. She has healing, Mdef buffs and she has this:

Range: Medium
Activation: 30
Cooldown: 5s
Requires: 15 magicThe caster sheathes an ally in an aura that completely shrugs off most missile attacks for a moderate duration.

I'm pretty sure that this encompasses Leon's ranged attacks; my knowledge of Dragon Age suggests that "middle defense" is a stat that refers to ranged physical attacks.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

KJH posted...

Ok, for real. When has Break ever been in plot or even against your party ever been something that was a surefire guarantee? It feels really stupid to hype it, like hyping if some slipup gave Yu "Mudoon" in a fight.

Castlevania, where medusa heads petrify you to hell. Which is what matters because the key thing it needs to do is set Alucard up to get blown up by Leon.

I don't get this though. Like, petrify by medusas gets broken within like 3 seconds. You're trying to make it out that since he can be petrified in his game that it's a major detriment to him, but the actual effects of that status make it out like he barely cares about the ailment. This is like the difference between DDS Cielo (who's actually weak to status ailments) and someone who recovers from status ailments within 1 turn. It's going to be a hell of a quick draw for Terra to even hit with Break, followed by Leon shooting and landing a rocket in that window, which given travel time is longer than the amount of time Alucard would even stay petrified.

And BREAK is Terra's go-to spell? The thing that's never worked in a single major fight she's had?

I guess this is GameFAQs Terra, who's not even slave-crowned, but going to be raining the perfect death and destruction from on-high. Like yeah, surely she's going to exit those mines, leave all of her allies to die (especially SABIN, someone she actually knows) so she can fly about exclusively targeting the strongest enemy mercs and engaging them at distances she's never fought enemies from in FF6 or Dissidia. What even happens if the enemy team makes it to the mines, which are a roofed terrain?

There's just so many holes in this "Terra solos" off of her alone, nevermind Lightning being stronger and having taken on flying opponents, Alucard capable of flight as well, and Morrigan being an anti-magic mage that passes it on to her allies.
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Even if Morrigan can get the anti magic thing off once, how in the world is he avoid all three Crono, Sabin, and Leon who are dealing physical attacks.
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Drakeryn posted...

re: Graviga: According to the FF wiki at least, it doesn't work against enemies who are immune to Death. So Lightning is presumably okay. Dunno if Alucard has any anti-instant-death.

was this because of the ribbon idea or something else? because Ribbon doesn't protect against Death, just a slew of status effects. i wouldn't assume anybody's got Death immunity unless there's something specific there.

MajinZidane posted...

Plus, Terra doesn't even know that Lightning is the most threatening opposition on the field.

thing is this can be flipped on its head back at you: why would she use this spell, at the right time, on the character who's got a good bodyguard on her? she already has a bodyguard. i'd assume he'd get any protection first so he could tank it for her. since thisspell isn't something that can be spammed, she's gotta pick this exact spell at this exact time on the exact ally and none of that seems particularly probable. Lightning doesn't need to be targeted first either, like... why would she? obviously she's stronger but it's not like Terra can't fly/teleport as she wants, making her near impossible to take down in any quick strike.

KJH posted...

Ok, for real. When has Break ever been in plot or even against your party ever been something that was a surefire guarantee? It feels really stupid to hype it, like hyping if some slipup gave Yu "Mudoon" in a fight.

i'd totally respect Mudoon. hell, Nocturne traumatized everyone who played SMT with it. SMT series has been very good at making you respect Death/Expel spells, from percent damage to instant death, so yeah, it'd matter a lot for him as instant death is 100% usable against you and a real threat to you almost all times and is a real threat against most enemies too, super easy and good to use in SMT4(A).

though i assume if there's any Mudoon user, it's gotta be Naoto thanks to P4A.
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I thought Death was a status effect (at least the kind that's just, someone casts Death and you die). But I don't know if it's that way in FF13 specifically.
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The Alucard jobs super hard to break argument doesn't make any sense. Alucard is shown to be able to get out of the petrification status of his own volition without any assistance in a timely manner, and people are talking about that like it exposes his secret Achilles heel. Kratos seems more vulnerable while stoned, and even he can likewise break out of petrification on his own.

If most Mercs got turned to stone, they'd probably be fucked until a mage or a soft-esque item was applied. Alucard may not be immune to stone, unless he happened to be carrying the Medusa Shield, but he still can handle it better than ~90% of Mercs.

And yeah, Lightning has enough ups to be able to strike flying enemies.

Team Lightning
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Drakeryn posted...

I thought Death was a status effect (at least the kind that's just, someone casts Death and you die). But I don't know if it's that way in FF13 specifically.

In FFXIII Death=Ultima

And tbe Graviga spells are absent from the 13 games with the exception of on god lightning jn 13-2 which she doesnt get here and which was just a bunch of rocks encasing caius for like a secondm
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ribbon in FF6, 7, 10, 12, and a couple more doesn't protect against Death. bear in mind that a quarter of the time it's nothing to do with status effects anyway. Death as a spell doesn't seem to even exist in FF13's universe, it's a limit break for Vanille.

Gravity/Demi, for what it's worth, doesn't seem to exist there either, at least not in any normal way. checking the wiki, seems the only time the lowest level spell appears is in a a QTE event working as... well, gravity onto a person.
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Wang, there's plot to consider for stuff like Mudoon, like why's it never worked to instakill any major enemy. Or even gameplay mechanics, like other characters enduring it (despite it being an instakill), or it just flat out failing even in cases where it can work. The chances of things like that working in mercs are so low! It always just feels dumb to rely on that stuff unless that's really a plot-established power of that character (like the Soul Eater rune for Tir or Exdeath with the Void).
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why would it be low? some characters endure death spells because they gained some form of magic resistance to it/gained certain skills that would prevent it in gameplay/plot, sure. i mean i agree that there are ways to get around dying when hit with death spells but if you don't have that, then... when you get hit with a death spell, it's going to suck. SMT seems to like that train of thought. most fiction does too, for that matter.

we don't ever talk about this stuff in mercs because it's literally banned, not because of things not working. quite the opposite, most characters should be suspectible to it, that's why it's broken. yet for Terra in this fight, nothing is. so petrification is fair game, graviga is fair game, and the latter's an AoE that in gameplay wrecks 75% of your HP. in more FMV style, i'd personally see that as the individual being hit with strong gravitational forces that hurt them a lot, greatly slow them down, possibly stun them. which makes them vulnerable to followup moves.
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Yeah despite it being from the team I'm voting for I think the Break argument is layers upon layers of silly

1. Why is Terra leading with Break, and why is Alucard her go to target for it.
2. Why is Alucard's reaction to Medusa Head petrify particularly terrible. He gets out of it which of anything makes it seem less effective than what you would expect Break to normally do, you know, kill.
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On the other hand getting hit while Petrified tends to do silly amounts of damage to Alucard
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Kratos or FFX characters getting hit while petrified instantly kills em so again when you consider the alternative it's not that bad!
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they also shatter into dust which makes no sense considering they're perfectly fine and back in one piece after the fight.

Honestly, I think this topic is a pretty good example of why spells like Break and Death should be banned.

Yes well they are banned. It just happens that a very specific ability interaction that typically wouldn't allow this to occur occurred. <_<

(granted this could occur for Terra's team as well and she'd enter as a third party which is much more fair imo)
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Lightning
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well yeah, personally i don't argue for Break, though i buy the argument. it just seems too... simple i think? Break is good if you're 1 on 1 or something but if it's against multiple people, go for the AoE near-kill that disables the opponent and leaves them vulnerable. alternatively, use it on key points that ruin the other team's ability to act, e.g., with them on a bridge.

the Death argument relates to this since it's apparently in the same "elemental" family as that in FF6, so if you were immune to Death, you're immune to Grav- spells there. that's the full extent though.
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I think I would flip my opinion if anyone on Team Lightning would be able to Esuna her but as far as I'm aware Morrigan can't.
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Terra is pretty strong in trance form, especially in cut scenes, and undoubtedly the strongest ff6 character story wise

As long as she is alive, she can create separation, resurrect everyone, allow buffs to be re applied, and get the jump on the other team

Realistically she will try to overwhelm the team with monster magic or whatever. I think the other team'a only chance is to insta gib Terra somehow, but they don't seem to have that capability

Nobody on team lightning had the capability to resurrect, so team Terra only needs to kill one opponent per reset
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greengravy294 posted...

I think I would flip my opinion if anyone on Team Lightning would be able to Esuna her but as far as I'm aware Morrigan can't.

Well, Morrigan has dispel magic as part of her anti-magic tree and Lightning has dispel/dispelga. I feel like those are what you're referring to.
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MajinZidane posted...

greengravy294 posted...

I think I would flip my opinion if anyone on Team Lightning would be able to Esuna her but as far as I'm aware Morrigan can't.

Well, Morrigan has dispel magic as part of her anti-magic tree and Lightning has dispel/dispelga. I feel like those are what you're referring to.

Dispel in FF removes positive effects so kinda irrelevant. Best I can find on DA Dispel Magic is that it typically removes either curses or positive buffs as well. Wiki wasn't very helpful but I googled what's removable and I got a gamefaqs topic: https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/950918-dragon-age-origins/55252302

Either way seems rather inconclusive for a game I haven't actually played. Seems interp here.
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greengravy294 posted...

I think I would flip my opinion if anyone on Team Lightning would be able to Esuna her but as far as I'm aware Morrigan can't.

Dispel Magic gets rid of both positive and negative magic effects, not exactly a 1-to-1 match with Esuna but I think it should do roughly the same against what Terra would be throwing around. Seems to remove anything that was applied by a mage, but not like bard/warrior/etc. buffs and debuffs

edit: nvm you are several steps ahead of me
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JeezyMiyagi posted...

Seems to remove anything that was applied by a mage,

well that seems far more conclusive than what i gathered (i didnt put together mage vs. not mage buffs/debuffs)

morrigan's dispel magic probably would work here then.
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