Board 8 > Mercenaries Draft Week 4 Peacetime: Green Heaven

(+) Yeah! (+)

that's a yikes
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(To clarify, the main reason to say 'we probably won't give a refund' is not wanting to encourage people to rush based on preliminary thoughts. It puts admins in a shitty spot where they can't even talk to the players about their situations lest the players assume any random thing the admin says is a ruling. The end result is that as admins we have to keep players totally in the dark until we have a finalized ruling, thus isolating players from admins and viceversa.)
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If you're gonna keep to strict deadlines on redrafts but not pump out the rulings at a quick enough clip then you need to have some flexibility there.

Like if this was a proper mercs we'd probably have gotten some sorta freeze there for something time sensitive-- there was no freeze so therefore you need to show some leniency there.
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That and there's the whole thing where even the lack of a refund was a 'maybe'. This was something I wanted to discuss with my co-admin and then gravy quit because he didn't get the immediate response he wanted. Why should the admins acquiesce to strongarming? >_>
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Lopen posted...

If you're gonna keep to strict deadlines on redrafts but not pump out the rulings at a quick enough clip then you need to have some flexibility there.

Like if this was a proper mercs we'd probably have gotten some sorta freeze there for something time sensitive-- there was no freeze so therefore you need to show some leniency there.

This is probably the most reasonable argument in favor of allowing the rollback, fwiw. It's muddied by gravy taking immediate action instead of waiting to see what the response was and THEN asking for the freeze/rollback. Really, I can't emphasize just how much it blows to have people rush to make decisions based on preliminary thoughts instead of finalized ones. If this was off of a finalized ruling that got reversed, or even a preliminary ruling with specific 'assume it works like this' permission granted (which we've done before, even!) I would immediately say 'yeah we'll roll it back, it's cool'. But things hadn't even reached that point. There was plenty of time to reach a decision when Gravy redrafted Yuri for Mei Ling.
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I'm torn in that I think gravy is in the right, but his quitting amuses me more.

Who do I support here?
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Well yeah if gravy was a baby about it then sure let him take his ball and go home. Probably just didn't wanna get schooled by Boko's superior powergaming later.

I'm just saying in principle I feel like he should get a takeback because

1. No real harm in giving him one if he takes it quickly as he hasn't abused anything yet
2. If someone's purchase hinges on a ruling there should be some sorta recourse-- if he waits for the ruling to be "official" the swap phase has expired at that point so that's not exactly a good solution either.

Now if he pulled the "I need this ruling and I need in in 20 minutes!!!" card then it's way less forgivable but at that point you'd allow this, and then put a standard in the rules somewhere of "hey if you demand a ruling on a swap on swap day, well, tough, we're not going to be required to give you the answer by then"
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Well plus what if someone drafts her during the time he's waiting for a 'finalized' ruling?

That's the big problem with the first-come-first-served method mixing with rulings.
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Pretty much. It's a real messy situation that needs some serious thinking. My initial thinking is that Gravy isn't 'legally' in the right here (IE the admin team isn't bound by the rules of fairness and proper admining to give him a rollback), but that it's a reasonably harmless act of admin mercy to allow the rollback since the situation wasn't entirely clearcut (if it was I would just flip him the bird - buyer's remorse not even remotely a good enough reason for the admins to grant takebacks). So...eh. Need to think about this some, I guess.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

the admin team isn't bound by the rules

tagline
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Well I suppose I can't sleep because why would I that makes too much sense. I suppose I had far more "harsh" wording, less coherent. But it isn't personal.

Simply put this game isn't fun. Boko went full out full tryhard, and quite frankly I don't want to play that way. I built a strong team with actually very little bullshit. Two Dantes, sure, fine, that's strong but my high tier is actually fairly thin prior to that. I considered making a dumb team around dumb mercs but that just wasn't fun for me. So instead of taking Monokuma at the end of the first half of the draft I took Dr. Light instead. Boko took that as an invitation to just grab all the broken mercs. He justifies it that, well Kanz didn't ban them. You realize that you could use Nilin in a reasonable manner without being fully unfair. Look at Tiro's team. Let it sink in that you just wanted to win, no matter what Boko. And guess what. I'd probably beat you anyway.

The endgame of M4 was basically frantically trying to find bullshit that was stronger than the bullshit I was facing. Guess what. It wasn't fun then. It sure is hell not fun now after what, a month into this game. No, fuck that. I don't have the patience to play this game with a bunch of mercs I bought because I wanted to construct a sound team. Not a fun team like I considered. And certainly not a broken team.

I was told one thing about Mei Ling. It was changed on me. I'll say no more than that. Regardless of her status on my team I'd probably win every week. And if I didn't, so what? Three teams are 0-3. Chances are going 0-4 even with zero ability use is pretty darn low.

I'm just not having fun. It's been a chore. Kanz has done a fine job as solely running the game. He said he thought something worked. I was tired, and I made a choice. He doesn't want to revert it because whatever reason. I won't even cry foul on Luis, a fucking former admin, scumming out Agnes for Lara. Does responsibility lie solely with Kanz for not finding an immediate answer? Hell no. But guess what. The re-draft bullshit, which I thought was bullshit to begin with...was only one day long. I got an answer around 1:40 am. I made my choice. And I turned my brain off from dealing with my team because it wasn't fun.

So basically if my only optimal play was to continually badger the only admin for rulings over and over, while at work, while he is sleeping, and keep waiting until...well, too bad, no ruling, and now it's peacetime. A decision was made during peacetime effective immediately. I won't speak on specifics, again, because truth be told I have no interest in tipping my hand at all. But if I am unable to make a truly informed decision about a merc swap during the allotted time I should be able to revert the trade. But apparently Kanzaris disagrees.

So I am done. I'm not having fun with the game in general and my admin correspondence with Kanzaris is just quite frankly a pain. And again I say this with all due respect to Kanz as he's doing incredible solo maintaining two separate games concurrently with surely some sort of real life he leads. I have no one else to badger, to get any input. So I trusted in his word. In fact I even asked Lopen for some advice, because who else was there. But like, fuck that. Lopen having admined before doesn't have to answer questions for me. It isn't his burden any longer. And I truly apologize for asking for your opinion on stuff. And I truly appreciate the time you gave me when you didn't have to.

Anyway I have wanted to quit mercs since Week 1. This isn't some rage quit even though I'm sure FFD is foaming at the mouth for some drama. I'm not mad at Kanz for making what I think to be an idiotic ruling. But I just...I can't do it any longer. I could sandbag a "worthless" merc, who truly has great value. But the value lied within...well, basically what would help me beat Boko's broken shit (I had no intention of using it this week, fwiw).
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greengravy294 posted...

Boko went full out full tryhard, and quite frankly I don't want to play that way. I built a strong team with actually very little bullshit

lmao
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The end result is that as admins we have to keep players totally in the dark until we have a finalized ruling, thus isolating players from admins and viceversa.

I mean, yea, this is exactly how it should work tbh.

Rulings are not a negotiation between the player and the admin, so there's no need for a back and forth.

Player: "how does this work?"

Admin: "like this."

or

Admin: "I don't know. I'll get back to you."

The end.

I have no idea what this has to do with "isolating the players from the admins." If you're talking about fraternizinizing with the players in general, that's fine, just keep it out of the ruling process.
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FFDragon posted...

Well plus what if someone drafts her during the time he's waiting for a 'finalized' ruling?

That's the big problem with the first-come-first-served method mixing with rulings.

In that situation THEN we would put down a freeze. Because obviously allowing someone else to redraft into Mei Ling while Gravy was waiting on us would put the admin team at fault for allowing her to get stolen when he was otherwise on the ball. We as an administration are not afraid to swallow our pride and say 'yeah our bad, we goofed' if something goes wrong because of us. Our goal is simply to issue fair rulings and keep the game running in a timely fashion, nothing more and nothing less.
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greengravy294 posted...

Simply put this game isn't fun

Ah, the Original Tagline ™
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Lopen posted...

greengravy294 posted...

Boko went full out full tryhard, and quite frankly I don't want to play that way. I built a strong team with actually very little bullshit

lmao

What really is broken about my team? Armatized Dante is vulnerable, clone Dante can ruin his entire team. Ellie and Light are pretty bad, but I super overpaid on Light.
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I mean, yea, this is exactly how it should work tbh.

Rulings are not a negotiation between the player and the admin, so there's no need for a back and forth.

This is where we disagree - there actually is value in the back and forth because the player can help dig up precedents or otherwise present the admin with a dissenting voice that allows him to straighten out his thoughts and issue a better ruling. The idea isn't that the player tries to persuade the admin to rule his way through charisma (we absolutely know players might try to do that and we keep an eye out for that, we're not stupid or naive), but rather that it allows the admin to consider all possible sides of a ruling - which with a small admin team always comes in handy. For example, since the players are always looking for ways to break the game, they can point out how a certain piece of wording leads to an unintended interaction, and why they want it to work that way - and the admin can determine if this is an exploit (and thus should be shot down with a ruling), a bug (and thus is to be lived with, really), or a feature (in which case the player probably should be congratulated for finding a cheap trick to eke out wins with). Multiple erratas have come as a result of conversations of this sort, which is always healthy for the game, so axing that doesn't offer much benefit.
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Well you answered it for me.

Ellie is probably the most broken merc in the game. Nilin at least requires you to invest in other pieces. Ellie functions with whatever you want.

Light is probably top 5 for similar reasons.

Sorey Mewtwo combo with Dante is really powergamey unless you're a huge fan of Pokemon, DMC, and Tales of Whateveria.

You both powergamed really hard. Boko just did it better.
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TBH we all know gravy is just dodging the embarrassment of getting his first loss at the hands of a winless team!
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considering i passed up on powergaming mercs at every point when i could have uh no you're fucking wrong.

but the writing was on the wall halfway through the draft that boko had every intention on taking incredibly potent mercs. the competitive guy in me said "well lets make some neat combos then."

literally round by round picks:

Gravy: 1. Dante, 2. Sorey, 3. Terra, 4. Kefka, 5. Flynn, 6. Dr. Light (PS),
7. Shulk, 8. Yuri, 9. Ellie, 10. Agnes, 11. Mewtwo, 12. Y'shtola

so yeah literal most broken merc in the game i took in the 9th fucking round. someone that comboed with my initial foundation that i put minimal extra thought into round 11.

so you are wrong, lopen. i took dante because i literally fought one battle and i got politcs fucked to high heaven. sorey is super broken and literally a first round pick, so him slipping is ???. rest says it for themselves. kefka in 4th round? flynn 5th? hello?

i mean i was also gonna mulligan yshtola cuz i timed out (oops went outside during the draft) for xcom and name him literally bossman coolguy as a "kind of" joke pick. also i loved the build, regardless.

/shrug

going to bed for real
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man i'm already tempted to rescind my resignation just so i can beat retardrocket and then quit again
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Kefka, Terra, Flynn, v weak mercs

It's not just about picking the strongest mercs, it's about picking ones you expect to get taken quickly

Unless you're gonna tell me you really really REALLY like Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE, no one picks Yumi and says they're not powergaming it. Hell picking Dante + Sorey round 1 probably says you were powergaming it, forget all the other stuff, cause IIRC you're not exactly a big DMC fan or anything.

You want examples of teams that are playing the game to actually have fun, look at my team or eddv's or eaed's or Kamek's or hell even Skyridge's. Like I know you wanna pretend you weren't trying to break the game in half cause it makes you cool but I can't see that merc list and take you remotely seriously when you say you're not.

I said it to ya weeks ago-- Boko isn't powergaming harder, just smarter.
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greengravy294 posted...

man i'm already tempted to rescind my resignation just so i can beat retardrocket and then quit again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Oy6DwHAi70
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I wanted to build a really strong team without dumb mercs powering it. I was one of the most vocal proponents of Nilin/Monokuma/Yandere to be banned. Good mercs weren't taken so I was like okay sure (I super like Flynn, Kefka's super whatever to me, Terra is a very neat merc I wanted to buy in M4 as well). It wasn't like most of my original team were mercs I liked. Zidane. Oops. Shepard. Completely ineffective in this format. And that was kind of it.

In fact I can probably cite like...several instances of saying to eddv I could take Monokuma but that wouldn't be fun!

I never said I didn't try to make a powerful team. Everyone in my group did.

I mean I have won every week with ease trust me when I say that I'm not all too upset Boko can and maybe/likely/who knows would beat me down the line.
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it's true, i actually legitimately despise you. unlike corrik who i am typically very friendly with and i'm just really enjoying giving him a hard time. us alpha males really like those crude jokes, ha ha ;)
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greengravy294 posted...

it's true, i actually legitimately despise you.

This both amuses and confuses me. I have no idea what I've done to earn this!
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-I don't understand why gravy doesn't get a rollback
-I don't understand why playing to win mercs is suddenly a crime
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If gravy gets a roll back then all of the redraft should be rolled back. I redrafted based on his draft decision.


Also, I agree this version of mercs is pretty much not fun at all.
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man I really like this version y'all are lamers
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Tom Bombadil posted...

man I really like this version y'all are lamers

^

I got to have a Kirbwing v. Arwing 1v1 showdown

Never would've gotten that in "devote over a year of your life to this internet game" mercs

I'm pretty set as far as fun goes
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buydown bayo
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Just clearing out your injury log I take it Corrik?

don't quit gravy! your team is still cool

(but if you do, i have a good idea of who you should tag in)
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is it alany time again? I think it's alany time again
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ZeeksFire posted...

Just clearing out your injury log I take it Corrik?

Yaya
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Tom Bombadil posted...

is it alany time again? I think it's alany time again

Dear hell why
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Dr. Wily : Prepare for Trouble!
Bass: .........
Dr. Wily: .......
Bass: ........
Dr. Wily: You were supposed to say Make it Double!
Bass: ....... Battle is my Forte
Dr. Wily: ....Ugh


Bass and Wily to low
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Lopen posted...

If you're gonna keep to strict deadlines on redrafts but not pump out the rulings at a quick enough clip then you need to have some flexibility there.

Like if this was a proper mercs we'd probably have gotten some sorta freeze there for something time sensitive-- there was no freeze so therefore you need to show some leniency there.

super late to the party but I am seconding this

but if you're not having any fun in general, then sure, quit

BUT I don't see what's wrong with playing to win
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I am enjoying the game and playing to win isn't a crime unless you're crying foul at the guy doing it better than you are.
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I agree with gravy that there should have been a few more mercs banned in this format and have made the game worse because they weren't.

I agree with Lopen that there is nothing wrong with playing to win, since even this bastard version is going to take months to get through.
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seph and kuja to low
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aaaaah mercenaries

the amazing feeling of being on the outside
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FFDragon posted...

I agree with gravy that there should have been a few more mercs banned in this format and have made the game worse because they weren't.

I agree with Lopen that there is nothing wrong with playing to win, since even this bastard version is going to take months to get through.

I was hugely in favor of getting more mercs changed or banned, but since they weren't I still wanted to win if I could.

Although I think that gravy should get to at least undo his redraft, if not get another draft choice all together.
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In still don't know how Nilin was approved in the first place.
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Shantae is the Guardian Genie of The Pit
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Skyridge87 posted...

In still don't know how Nilin was approved in the first place.

Mercenaries4Wiki posted...

Week 41
Artorias
Ashley Winchester
Beartic
Brad Armstrong
Corrin
Dante (DmC)
Flynn
Geese Howard
Glass Joe
Golbez
Grigori
Honoka
Jaesa Willsaam
Julius Belmont
Kanji Tatsumi
Lemeza Kosugi
Machamp
Magnus Gallant
Mileena
Nilin
The Nephalem
The Player (Terraria)
Ramlethal Valentine
Slime
Soma Schicksal
The Tank
Tusk
Uncle Sensei
Yuzuriha
Ashtar
Clementine
Freddy Fazbear's Pizza
Monokuma
Okabe Rintarou
Operative
Orange Star
Professor Oak
Rose and Jack
U-1
Yandere-chan
Zero (ZE)

Better question is how Yumizuru got approved, since she's a week 40 merc. It's sorta the same answer but it's less forgivable and directly blamable on numbers there.
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(The answer is most weeks had me balance checking-- I was thoroughly checked out week 41 and 40, and to a lesser extent 39 though I remember at least looking over Lightning)
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(And I realize this may sound like I'm tooting my own horn, which I mean, I am to some extent, but the numbers don't lie. The strong majority of bad mercs were from week 1-9, week 39-41. I think the only terribad merc that escaped on my watch was Kha'zix and I blame that on the guy being SUPER overpowered to start and not being nerfed enough-- and also being in a cloud of 16 other League mercs all of which all needed to be looked over with a small window.

I did argue we should just ban Week 41 outright, though-- and I would extend that to Week 40 if I paid more attention to the release schedule.)
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y'know what really should've happened for this was ironed-out type moon builds

saber in mercs where
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I remain so very disappointed that Monokuma doesn't actually alter his attached merc's personality to be Monokuma using their body
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