Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Fetch, Brock Lesnar and Leon Kennedy vs. Kirby, Sora and Booker deWitt

(+) Yeah! (+)

eaedwards6400 posted...

Sora can't glide. Based off the description shared he doesn't have Final form. You cannot learn glide without final form.

Sora absolutely can glide. He can't USE final form (because it's locked behind ability). Nothing says he can't use commands inherited from it.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Fetch has homing attacks, bullet time, and can also teleport to strike dudes (+ has superspeed)

Like, I'm looking at Fetch and going "She's pretty good", issue is she's surrounded by fodder that Song bird can just fly through and kill. So she basically has to solo tank Songbird for 30 seconds and she still holds the aggro past that. Kinda a bad situation.

Yeah but he has final form in the broader context of mercs he just can't use it all the time, so he has gotten final form at some point so he knows glide
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Sora's base form can glide <_<
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eaedwards6400 posted...

I wanna argue this cloud thing more.

Here is from the Kirby wiki that Johnbobb shared.

Also, any objects in the way of any throw from the Suplex ability will instantly be destroyed or damaged.

In Kirby world, why wouldn't Brock's suplex destroy the clouds they are standing on?

Because the clouds are the terrain, not objects.

So using the suplex as an example, Kirby would grab an enemy, suplex them through any blocks or other enemies, and into the ground, but the ground would be unaffected.
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YOUR WWE UNIVERSAL CHAMPION, BRRRRRROCK LESNARRRRRRR

Sora is dizzied at the very least. Sora is NOT good at taking a hit - avoiding it and giving them out, sure, but an undoubted and unmitigated unprotected suplex from THE BEAST is no good. And really, that's all the time that Fetch needs in order to start kiting songbird to Hell and back. It's not rocket science to go "oh shit, this giant thing is coming at m-- oh shit it's coming back, better go into my invincible form and avoid it instead of standing here". Booker's definitely dead, Kirby can probably come back but is rather severely injured, and Sora gets tuckered out from having to deal with the bird. Leon and Bork surviving is a crapshoot, but I can see an argument for Leon living, and this is easy money if he does. In the situations where he doesn't, I still see Fetch doing great things.

Yeah just... terrible terrain choice here.
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God fucking damn you to hell Kamek Sora can take a FUCKING SUPLEX.
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

God fucking damn you to hell Kamek Sora can take a FUCKING SUPLEX.

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I totally buy the suplexes destroying the clouds.
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Johnbobb posted...

eaedwards6400 posted...

But when time resumes the enemy takes damage. Wouldn't the terrain take damage as well. If this happened at Monday Night RAW Brock did a superplex to the big show in this frozen period wouldn't the ring still collapse?

That's debatable I guess? I feel like most would say no, but it's Mercs so whatever, nothing makes sense

regardless, a Suplex isn't the kind of thing that would be strong enough to break them

See: Kirby literally suplexing people in his game

Literally from what you shared about the Kirby wiki:

Here is from the Kirby wiki that Johnbobb shared.

Also, any objects in the way of any throw from the Suplex ability will instantly be destroyed or damaged.

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Like, I'm looking at Fetch and going "She's pretty good", issue is she's surrounded by fodder that Song bird can just fly through and kill. So she basically has to solo tank Songbird for 30 seconds and she still holds the aggro past that. Kinda a bad situation.

https://youtu.be/yi0Hip55sNE?t=297

Watch for literally four seconds. You see Fetch turns into wisps of neon. There's no 'aggro tank' nonsense at play there, Songbird literally can't hurt her because he's working with pure brute force. And why would she hold aggro when she's a cloud of neon particles? You think Songbird, once the 'taunt effect' is off, is gonna focus on a neon cloud he can't hurt over real people, and in particular over Booker? Whom it tries to kill SUPER HARD across Bioshock Infinite?
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Also, for the record, I argue against the destructible clouds in the write-up. Because literally the only evidence we have as to how much damage they take is Kanz's phrasing, because nothing in the Kirby universe breaks them. The best way to treat them is as a flat surface that's basically intangible when approaching from below or the sides, sort of like Smash Bros. terrains.
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Lopen posted...

Sora's base form can glide <_<

The assumption was that he did not have Final because it doesn't say he has fin. Base form cannot use glide without having final.
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Fetch, BTW. I think Fetch vs Sora is advantage Sora, though it's close. I think the clouds are maybe or maybe not destroyed - but more importantly, I think Songbird is not killing Fetch because she can just troll him by turning into neon and this means Songbird ends up fighting Sora and friends. And Fetch can win against whoever's left after that epic clash.
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Johnbobb posted...

eaedwards6400 posted...

But when time resumes the enemy takes damage. Wouldn't the terrain take damage as well. If this happened at Monday Night RAW Brock did a superplex to the big show in this frozen period wouldn't the ring still collapse?

That's debatable I guess? I feel like most would say no, but it's Mercs so whatever, nothing makes sense

regardless, a Suplex isn't the kind of thing that would be strong enough to break them

See: Kirby literally suplexing people in his game

He actually did.
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eaedwards6400 posted...

Johnbobb posted...

eaedwards6400 posted...

But when time resumes the enemy takes damage. Wouldn't the terrain take damage as well. If this happened at Monday Night RAW Brock did a superplex to the big show in this frozen period wouldn't the ring still collapse?

That's debatable I guess? I feel like most would say no, but it's Mercs so whatever, nothing makes sense

regardless, a Suplex isn't the kind of thing that would be strong enough to break them

See: Kirby literally suplexing people in his game

Literally from what you shared about the Kirby wiki:

Here is from the Kirby wiki that Johnbobb shared.

Also, any objects in the way of any throw from the Suplex ability will instantly be destroyed or damaged.

I mean I literally just said that in the Kirby world, clouds are terrain, not objects.
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Oh I fully agree that Sora can take a suplex. I'm not quite that much of an idiot.

I just am saying 'it hurts him to a good extent and he's like 'ow' instead of no selling it and that causes a substantial enough window for Fetch to start toying with the bird'.
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eaedwards6400 posted...

Lopen posted...

Sora's base form can glide <_<

The assumption was that he did not have Final because it doesn't say he has fin. Base form cannot use glide without having final.

The assumption is also that mercenaries have access to all of their tools unless it explicitly says they don't. Implication isn't enough to take stuff away from Sora, eaed. This argument is just foolish. I can put up a clarification on this at some point if it's really important, but 'doesn't have final form' =/= 'hasn't learned the stuff final form grants'. We're generally prettttttttty good about specifying what's banned and what isn't, and unless it's banned it's fair game.
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Hi yes Johnbobb. I posted before you.
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Kamekguy posted...

Oh I fully agree that Sora can take a suplex. I'm not quite that much of an idiot.

I just am saying 'it hurts him to a good extent and he's like 'ow' instead of no selling it and that causes a substantial enough window for Fetch to start toying with the bird'.

he's like ow

then he casts Curaga
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Drakeryn posted...

Lopen posted...

So uh the real question in this match is

All those suplexes onto clouds that are "destructible with a concentrated effort"

Does Kirby's team start with nothing to stand on, causing Booker and Sora to instantly fall to their deaths.

abilities don't do splash damage though

I think it's even in Kan's match conventions

They don't splash onto nearby mercs. This is the convention:

-No matter how incongruous it might be, damaging abilities only damage the specific mercenaries targeted with them and nobody else, unless stated otherwise.

Whether it works on the terrain or not is interp, and it's a reasonable interp thing to discuss.

Personally, I think "only damage the specific mercenaries targeted" is pretty clear. (But also it lines up with how I've always seen matches, which is no splash damage period.)
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eaedwards6400 posted...

Hi yes Johnbobb. I posted before you.

wait what

I swear it showed up that you had reposted that after I replied initially
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Johnbobb posted...

Also, for the record, I argue against the destructible clouds in the write-up. Because literally the only evidence we have as to how much damage they take is Kanz's phrasing, because nothing in the Kirby universe breaks them. The best way to treat them is as a flat surface that's basically intangible when approaching from below or the sides, sort of like Smash Bros. terrains.

So you're going from telling him that the ability can't destroy the clouds because abilities work a specific way as per writeup, to now trying to argue "The writeup is incorrect and should be ignored."
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kirby solos

Drakeryn posted...

Whether it works on the terrain or not is interp, and it's a reasonable interp thing to discuss.

It wouldn't be if there wasn't a clause edited into the terrain that's solely interp and unrepresentative of the actual in-game terrain
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This is such bullshit.
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StealThisSheen posted...

Johnbobb posted...

Also, for the record, I argue against the destructible clouds in the write-up. Because literally the only evidence we have as to how much damage they take is Kanz's phrasing, because nothing in the Kirby universe breaks them. The best way to treat them is as a flat surface that's basically intangible when approaching from below or the sides, sort of like Smash Bros. terrains.

So you're going from telling him that the ability can't destroy the clouds because abilities work a specific way as per writeup, to now trying to argue "The writeup is incorrect and should be ignored."

I think both are true, yes
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Personally, I think "only damage the specific mercenaries targeted" is pretty clear. (But also it lines up with how I've always seen matches, which is no splash damage period.)

Yeah, it's not a wrong interp. I'm pretty ambivalent about it. Just saying that if we start going into the specific wording it says 'nobody' which implies personhood, as opposed to 'nothing else' which would totally make the terrain absolutely immune to splash.
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I'm not trying to argue against the write-up for the purposes of this match; just that I think the write-up is inherently flawed KANZ >.>
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Johnbobb posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

Johnbobb posted...

Also, for the record, I argue against the destructible clouds in the write-up. Because literally the only evidence we have as to how much damage they take is Kanz's phrasing, because nothing in the Kirby universe breaks them. The best way to treat them is as a flat surface that's basically intangible when approaching from below or the sides, sort of like Smash Bros. terrains.

So you're going from telling him that the ability can't destroy the clouds because abilities work a specific way as per writeup, to now trying to argue "The writeup is incorrect and should be ignored."

I think both are true, yes

Then you're absolutely full of bullshit and trying to game the system
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HeroicGammaRay posted...

kirby solos

excuse you that's Beast Incarnate Kirby to you
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StealThisSheen posted...

Then you're absolutely full of bullshit and trying to game the system

...you can believe in multiple things
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It wouldn't be if there wasn't a clause edited into the terrain that's solely interp and unrepresentative of the actual in-game terrain

Spoilers, this entire terrain has never appeared in a single game in the way it's presented here. The real Bubbly Clouds cloud section is like 20 meters long if that. This entire terrain is a mercs construct, we had a discussion about this in the pregame and I had to remake it entirely to make sure it had 100% self-contained rules within the text. It's why it's so damn long instead of being 'as seen in X' and done.
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Blame me not Kanz. I made the write-up that way, kanz merely didn't adapt it out.
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Lopen why did you make the write up that way if the game isn't like that?
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So he wastes even more time patching himself up, brilliant!

Like I dunno about you, but when I get suplexed by a lava-fueled Brock Lesnar into a semi-destructible cloud and I'm taking a three second tan with a move that specifically targets the head with great concussive impact, I can just jump right back up and cast Curaga in a matter of like four seconds.

Like I know I'm not Sora, but c'mon. He's not no-selling this to the extent he needs to in order to win.

Also woah baby:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fkp9s_WMFhk

These clouds sure do seem durable.
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I mean the freaking write up SAYS the clouds are breakable. You are in fact using that argument to say the song bird destroys the platform that Brock and Leon are standing on before Fetch and Leon can take down the songbird.
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Lopen posted...

Blame me not Kanz. I made the write-up that way, kanz merely didn't adapt it out.

Nah tbf I could've remade it into something that was just 'bubbly clouds the level, as seen in [kirby game]'. I just wanted to maintain the spirit of the terrain cause it had given us fine matches before and it's not like picking a 'real version' was a huge gain.
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Reasoning being I think "fighting on clouds" is more interesting if they behave like (super dense) clouds would instead of solid platforms. Honestly would consider them being indestructible in game as more of a game mechanics thing anyway.
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Lopen posted...

Blame me not Kanz. I made the write-up that way, kanz merely didn't adapt it out.

Nah tbf I could've remade it into something that was just 'bubbly clouds the level, as seen in [kirby game]'. I just wanted to maintain the spirit of the terrain cause it had given us fine matches before and it's not like picking a 'real version' was a huge gain.

also blaming Kanz is more fun
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Look Brock is pretty great but Sora could take multiple suplexes really easy. Dude has a hard head.
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Johnbobb posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

Then you're absolutely full of bullshit and trying to game the system

...you can believe in multiple things

But what you believe directly contradicts

"You must go directly by the words in the writeups, so the ability doesn't work that way.

...........Except those words. Ignore those words."

That's just unfair. >_>
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I'm a big fan of Kamek right now. Those clouds are not no selling these suplexs.
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Also hey Kamek pulled out what I probably subliminally remembered-- yay Kirby's Adventure for being more "realistic" than Kirby's Dreamland
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Look Brock is pretty great but Sora could take multiple suplexes really easy. Dude has a hard head.

VOUCH on this

Sora doesn't die even if the clouds crumble tbqh. Like he's gotten blasted with magic straight to the dome and Riku has literally gotten lightsabered across the back and he's totally Sora's equal. Dude ain't jobbing to a suplex, it's the songbird fight into Fetch bonus boss that does him in.
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StealThisSheen posted...

Johnbobb posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

Then you're absolutely full of bullshit and trying to game the system

...you can believe in multiple things

But what you believe directly contradicts

"You must go directly by the words in the writeups, so the ability doesn't work that way.

...........Except those words. Ignore those words."

That's just unfair. >_>

I'm not saying to ignore the words

just that the words are dumb
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I'm not saying to ignore the words

just that the words are dumb

If you think the words are just too dumb you can petition for an edit to Kirby's terrain and if enough people agree it'll be considered. But for today's match, the dumb words are law. Gotta live with it, yo.
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Johnbobb posted...

I'm not saying to ignore the words

just that the words are dumb

That's more fair, I guess.

Though you did argue Songbird would destroy the clouds you now call indestructible
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Johnbobb posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

Johnbobb posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

Then you're absolutely full of bullshit and trying to game the system

...you can believe in multiple things

But what you believe directly contradicts

"You must go directly by the words in the writeups, so the ability doesn't work that way.

...........Except those words. Ignore those words."

That's just unfair. >_>

I'm not saying to ignore the words

just that the words are dumb

They may be "dumb" but damn it if that isn't what is defined and what we should be arguing based off of.
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if anything in kirby games can break clouds surely Beast Incarnate Brock Lesnar can with SUPLEXES that cause volcano eruptions
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