Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Chrom, Vanille and Bass.EXE vs. Sephiroth and Magus

(+) Yeah! (+)

Chrom, Vanille and Bass.EXE have challenged Magus and Sephiroth to a fight! Location of the fight: Magus's Castle - A large castle, full of floor traps and teleporters. Unless one knows where one is going, it is very easy to get lost. Attackers will start at the entryway, with defenders starting at Magus' sanctum. Which side will win?

Guidelines

- The fight will occur in real-time (like an FMV sequence). Gameplay mechanics are less important than how the characters would function in a real-time environment.
- The members of each team are ideal teammates capable of a pre-selected plan of battle.
- "Broken" refers to a lot of things, including insta-death, auto-effects, a variety of status effects (e.g., Imp, Silence, Stop, *not* Poison), and revival. Unless stated otherwise, nobody has them, though do use your own discretion.
- There may be SPOILERS from all of the games the characters are from.

Rules for Voting

-Bold your votes (using bold HTML tags).
-You do not need to require justification for your vote, though the admins reserve the right to disqualify votes in the advent of obvious alt voting and other similar scenarios.
-Leaders cannot vote for their own teams (and players from the same pool may not vote as well), but they are free to argue their case.
-If you want to switch your votes simply bold the change; there's no need to delete your post, though you may if you wish.
-This match will end in 24 hours.
-The following conventions are in use for match topics: www.gamefaqs.com/boards/570224-mercs/75290480/878106427


Bass.EXE is as he appears in the Megaman Battle Network series, with access to all the moves and properties of his Omega forms, though if any of his barriers/auras is destroyed, he loses access to all of them for the rest of the fight. He can operate here same as he does on the Net. Bass.EXE has Zero's X-Form as seen in Mega Man Zero 2 and a loadout of Samus Aran's equipment from Metroid Prime 3, giving him Nova Beam, Corruption Mode, Upgraded Grapple, X-Ray Visor, and Command Visor w/ Gunship.

Vanille is as seen in the postgame of Final Fantasy XIII, equipped with Nirvana-Belladonna Wand, Tetradic Crown, Ribbon, Magus's Bracelet, and Magistral Crest, all at max level. She has fully mastered the Ravager, Medic, and Saboteur sections of the Crystarium, and may freely switch between the roles. She may not cast Raise, Death, nor use any Techniques.

Chrom is as seen in Fire Emblem Awakening, as a level 20 Great Lord. He is equipped with the Exalted Falchion, Noble Rapier, Blessed Lance, and Gradivus and has the skills Dual Strike+, Dual Guard+, Aether, Aegis, and Rightful King.

~VS~

Sephiroth is as seen in Final Fantasy 7, Crisis Core, Dissidia, Advent Children Complete, and Kingdom Hearts 1&2, with access to all spells, materia, and abilities displayed within. This includes spells/abilities from Safer/Bizzaro Sephiroth, though he may not transform into either of those forms. He may not cast Heartless Angel, FFVII's Supernova, Pale Horse, Stop, or Break.

Magus is as seen in Chrono Trigger in his playable form, with access to his best non-broken equipment and all of his magic save for Black Hole. He can glide a bit off the ground, but he cannot fly or teleport. (Magus has a magical barrier in place where the only elemental magic he can be affected by is Fire magic, though both sides are aware, and no he's not limited to just magic of that type. He will lose the benefits of the barrier if he risks casting Dark Matter.)

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The black wind howls...one of your teams will shortly perish.
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@Corrik
@ScareChan

The floor is yours.
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Scare's argument:

My understanding of the terrain is that its basically a generic castle + traps. Not only will Chrom feel comfortable here and know that castles can contain traps and secret rooms, but Bass has the Metroid Custom that has the X Ray visor, which should make it pretty easy to locate the enemy team, as well as not fall for any traps.

I know the immeidate reaction is 6 in low stomps, but this match is pretty evenly matched. Bass is really really good with his current setup, but his help is no joke either.

Chrom may be the weak link here, but he still has his uses. His heart and his altruistic manner will put him in harms way to protect his team, which push comes to shove he will be a meat shield for vanille. But should he engage in close combat he is good with his weapons, and he has a lot of ways to heal. Whats useful is that he can lower resistance for Vanille, or defense for Bass

Vanille is actually very useful here. She has a slew of spells, and knowledge that fire wont work on Magus as per his write up. Knowing that she is dealing with a mage ahead of time, means she will open with Fogga
Disable enemy spell casting and deal magic damage within a wide radius.
Prevents use of all magical related abilities. Area of effect spell

This hurts Magus, but it hurts Seph just as much with how much magic he has. They wont be able to buff. After that she will get off a Slowga as it makes the most sense, and then can open up her arsenaland likely follow that up with Deshellga or Deprotetga.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Saboteur_(Final_Fantasy_XIII)
All nasty spells that hurt the enemies abilities

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Ravager_(Final_Fantasy_XIII)
All your standard high power elemental (and non elemental) attack magics

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Medic_(Final_Fantasy_XIII)
Strong cure spells, and Esuna just in case

Bass is my strongest Merc by far. His Life Barrier is going to be hard to deal with with their Magics being impaired by Vanille. He has his teleport and flight skills as well. His Metroid Custom gives him access to Phazon and improves his weapon potency, and X form allows him to fire at a higher rate when his rate of fire is already pretty high. He also has the Gunship at his command, which has missles that can break very strong materials, I feel it should be able to blow a hole in the roof of a castle. Would definitely get the drop on the other team in that situation.

He also has the Nova Beam : http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Nova_Beam

The Nova Beam plays a key role in the battle against Omega Ridley, as Samus Aran must use it to shoot through Omega Ridley's Phazite armor to damage his internal joints.

Nova beam is no joke. Its "Shoot through a f*cking wall and wreck you" good.

Don't let the 6 upkeep fool you, this match is very winnable by my team. Bass is a beast, and Vanille is no joke for backup. Also Seph has a thing for going after little girls and boys with crazy hair and swords. So its very likely he prioritizes trying to take them down first, allowing Bass to likely get first strike against him.
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Tldr bass pew pew seph qq
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bass

bass

this is the unholy bass I wanted in m4 :(
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Chaeix posted...

bass

this is the unholy bass I wanted in m4 :(

He is my pride and joy
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@Drakeryn
@Gatarix

Corrik is missing right now and can't attend the fight. If your offer to argue for his team still stands, I bet he'd appreciate it.

(For the sake of fairness, since corrik would have been in the match if we'd done it yesterday, I'll present an argument for him)
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Bass.

Now that's some synergy in ability gets. I'd take him over Sephiroth, and Chrom/Vanille can likewise beat Magus.
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I can't look up videos right now, but from Bass's last match I think that Sephiroth way outclasses him in speed and maneuverability. One of the Bass videos from last time just sorta had him hovering in midair (in a realtime action game) while the player pounds on him. The other video showed Bass scooting around a 3x3(?) grid, which at least he was moving, but still nothing compared to Sephiroth's aerial maneuverability in, say, the Junon Cannon scene.

Nova Beam is legit, but I have a hard time seeing Bass even tagging Sephiroth.

Vanille's debuffs would help, but again, she's got to hit, which is tricky in an FMV setting. And Sephiroth can also deflect magic with his sword (as seen in the Genesis fight). So it's a tough sell all around.
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My name is JC and I forfeited to gravy for a Shepard custom that I never used

:(

To be fair, Bass with Infiltrator powers imo is Very Good
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That video was to show he has flight and some of his air. Network transmission is a slow platforms though. His form he has is one of his last boss fight forms and is really quick when he is dashing around, let alone his teleports
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Since Corrik isn't around I'll offer a counter argument to Fog: he can teleport away if he notices his magic isn't working properly (this seems likely for him to recognize) and recover.
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Can he teleport without use of magic
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If I'm thinking of the same video, there wasn't any particularly quick movement at all. Just shuffling around a little 3x3 grid, as I mentioned. I can see it being effective in-game if the player's movement is just as clunky, but not in a fully 3D environment, and definitely not against someone as quick as Sephiroth (who can also teleport).
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Bass has teleport/afterimage speeds in movement. Like, he's definitely faster than Cloud or Sora as far as just sheer movement goes.
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Anyway I do think Fog(ga) usage is very clever here. My concern rather is how long is Vanille (and Chrom) able to survive against Sephiroth. Vanille pretty much gets abused by Seph here, I think, and it isn't really funny. She doesn't have some of her neater things like Death from her character upgrade, or her more "melee" styled classes (Commando or Sentinel) that could maaaaaybe argue her to actually survive for a bit against him.

Chrom is equipped to deal with Seph, but I mean, we saw how USELESS he was in my fight against Seph so lol :(

Anyway I think the fight basically boils down to Bass vs Seph. Vanille probably doesn't survive at all to disrupt Sephiroth. If she had some beef to her or wasn't just a mage (like say Fang here makes this a stomp if she gets Fog, which iirc she probably could with a proper write up?) then Fog(ga) has plenty of actual relevance. But I kinda think Vanille gets bodied before she really gets off many crippling debuffs onto Sephiroth here.
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Bass is absolutely capable of teleporting with some of his forms, but I'm unsure if it was character upgrade unlocked. For instance in a casual play of Bass XX fight (with Megaman.exe just dodging around and letting Bass do this combos) he pretty much has the ability to dumpster you with incredible speed.
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As far as in-game comparisons go Bass is only slightly slower than Quickman. Sure the battle system makes it hard to judge how mobile he is, but he moves differently from every other navi in the games with his weird hover/slide/teleport thing with the afterimages.

He does have flight, he flies into scenes from out of them over open air. He does have range, he kills a failed clone of himself from off-screen. And the Life Aura is hard to crack.
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(The following argument is a presentation of the match for the sake of Corrik's team having a preliminary argument.)

So. This match is, essentially, a test of whether Sephiroth can crush an uppity robot while Magus takes care of some fodder. The obvious thing to point out here first off is that this is entirely in Magus' wheelhouse: he takes on three (really five, unless you very insistently want to believe in party size limit game mechanics) opponents simultaneously in Chrono Trigger, and only loses because Frog's Masamune blade massively debuffs his magic defense. He has no such issue here, meaning even if Vanille spams Firagas or nonelemental spells, she will be very hard pressed to hurt him at all. Neither of the opponents are well-suited to dealing with a Dark Matter to the face, and the terrain does not advantage them. See, while Magus and Seph start within the sanctum, they have no reason to remain there. Why not head out for the outer battlements instead? You can see them here:

http://www.snesmaps.com/maps/ChronoTrigger/ChronoTrigger600MagussLair.html

Scroll down a bit and look for the pic with half a moon. That's the spot. Seph can fly and Magus can glide. This makes the castle wall ideal for them, allowing them to get attacks in with no interruptions. That's enough Magus though - time to talk business about the big man, Seph himself. First off, a reminder of his martial prowess:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ws7BeK6DS0

Cuts skyscrapers in half, check. Destroys an entire city district with ease, check. Spends the whole time clearly toying with Cloud and not even trying, check. This should suffice to establish Seph's pedigree. But that's not all he's got - he also has extra toys. Seph is packing multiple debuffs and buffs, and this is important, because Vanille's Esuna only removes one single debuff, for one target per cast. She doesn't even control which, either - it only removes the most recent one. So if she and her team are Slowed, Poisoned and Silenced (as a theoretical example), she'd have to cast nine Esunas to heal all of that. This means Seph wins the buff/debuff war, because his Aurora Fence removes all debuffs at once, and he similarly buffs his whole team with his spells. With Vanille busy fighting Magus, this means Hasted Protected Shelled Seph vs Bass - and I think I don't have to say too much about that, because it's a total stomp. Seph can easily take this if you think about the match a bit. Team Bass has no chance to survive.
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The thing in MMBN is that fighting higher level enemies is a game of shutting them down. Stuns, staggering and defensive chips. If you leave Bass alone he will absolutely murder you with a barrage of rapid, absurdly damaging attacks.
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https://youtu.be/Rc3uZNwKUlE?t=21

Pretty sure this is the Bass form (Omega). So definitely teleporting and super fast.
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Actually, checking a FAQ, Sephiroth is immune to Silence. So Fog is ineffective against him anyway. I am unsure about Magus (his writeup is an odd hybrid of his playable and boss forms, so it's kind of anyone's guess as to how they interact).
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If BASS's team had the terrain advantage I think they'd win this pretty convincingly-- X-Ray Visor or no though I don't see Magus being caught in a fight in his castle on terms he doesn't like. This whole Nova Beam through the wall strategy has a lot of eye popping factor to it but seems unlikely to actually come up in a fight. I just don't really see Magus and Seph wanting to be going through a corridor that could be shot through in general, even not knowing BASS can shoot through walls.
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Lopen posted...

If BASS's team had the terrain advantage I think they'd win this pretty convincingly-- X-Ray Visor or no though I don't see Magus being caught in a fight in his castle on terms he doesn't like. This whole Nova Beam through the wall strategy has a lot of eye popping factor to it but seems unlikely to actually come up in a fight. I just don't really see Magus and Seph wanting to be going through a corridor that could be shot through in general, even not knowing BASS can shoot through walls.

This is my take too (though Bass Prime 3: Corruption impresses me a whole bunch regardless - he definitely gained a LOT of firepower from Get Abilitying Samus, enough to make this match debatable). To me there's just no reason for Seph and Magus to not go to the outer wall in the link I posted (it's like the fourth screen or so?). It's closer to them than to the enemy team, and such a perfect position to get an opening barrage of spells from before Seph descends like a heartless angel. Feels like it's great terrain advantage even if X-Ray Visor foils the ambush somewhat.
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The outer battlements seem like a bad place to be for Seph/Magus, because then it's non-debatable that the Samus Gunship could simply reach them. With the X-Ray visor, it's an easy matter to just look up now and again, especially before stepping outside of the tower at a very high place. Like, there's a lot of ways around that ambush ranging from X-Ray to know it's coming, the gunship to attack for them, Nova Beam to shoot through the ceiling (either to break through the inside of the tower or hit Seph/Magus), and Bass just having better range, speed, and flight in the first place.
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Yeah I think the exterior wall in the moon shot (or the one below it) where Kanzaris linked seems like an awesome attack point. It's kinda weird because like... there's actually a lot of depth to it, meaning Magus will potentially have indirect line of sight from the very top area to the bottom area. What this means is you can do an attack strategy where basically flying Seph harasses them as they ascend, as Magus rains large AOE spells from the top area down to the bottom area-- likely blindsiding the enemy team as he's a good way higher up and they're going to be distracted by Seph who basically has full mobility along the exterior wall and isn't bound by the walkways.

Seph has full flight he's basically the ideal guy to abuse this strategy, and because Magus knows his castle well and has a decent head on his shoulders it's pretty natural to choose to make this the stage of the battle even not knowing your opponent's capabilities-- worst case scenario if that initial skirmish fails, they withdraw to Magus's throne room and have a more straightforward fight.

I don't really see a good answer for it.

Team Sephiroth.
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Someone flying around outside can definitely get hit by the gunship
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I mean the answer is they have a flying gunship outside, and their enemy is trying to camp outside of the tower on what's basically scaffolding. Or shooting through the ceiling while inside. >_>
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if I had a vote here i think i'd take sephiroth. he needs sufficient debuffing here. too fast otherwise
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The gunship's application in MP3 is basically to do bombing runs-- I don't really see it as being effective at sniping a midair human. Seems like calling the gunship down against Seph outside would amount to bombs largely missing him, blasting the castle and screwing the people in the castle (those that aren't Seph) a lot more. Like I see it as a thing to use against big less mobile foes. Seph isn't going to get hit with carpet bombing.
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With his Life Aura, Bass can tank any traps they might walk into (which they wouldn't because X-Ray) and, since even if you do more damage than the Aura has health, IIRC, he still takes no damage from that attack. If they get ambushed he'd be able to survive the initial barrage and fight back competently.
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Yeah I don't think the traps are a huge deal anyway, since the Chrono Trigger party can deal with them.

What is a huge deal is Sephiroth. I didn't realize until Kan's post that Vanille's Esuna sucked so much (only removes one debuff on one target), while Sephiroth can do whole team buffing and debuffing, Haste/Protect/Shell Sephiroth vs. base Bass is kinda rough.
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Vanille's Esuna is bad if you get pelted with a lot of debuffs at once. Against single debuffs it's not that bad though. Like, keep in mind Vanille can cast Esuna 4 or 5 times (forget which) in one turn and mix other spells in there too.

Don't get me wrong this is one of those situations where it's bad because of how Stigma works, but it's not as bad as it looks. Like if Seph used just Slowga instead of Stigma it's actually better than normal Esuna because she could cure herself, BASS, and Chrom, and still have a 4th spell slot to use on a piddly attack or cure or something (the higher level stuff takes multiple cast 'slots' in her turn)
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[there is a reason why, whenever possible I had Isaac using his water Djinn or with having some kind of condition remover and often argued Isaac as the healer and Vanille as the blaster/debuffer]
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Bass can't get debuffed with his Aura up.
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What debuffs are in MMBN again? I honestly can't remember at this point.
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FFDragon posted...

tag

@-FFDragon-

i'll probably be out tomorrow, so a reminder

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I dunno probably bass
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Team Sephiroth
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greengravy294 posted...

What debuffs are in MMBN again? I honestly can't remember at this point.

Stun, wind, confusion, blind, poison. Some others probably.
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I only really remember stun and confusion (attacking myself) but i got u
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Home field advantage
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I do not doubt the xray shot could get a hit in by surprise. But once he uses it that surprise is over. Seph can heal that damage and it is not going to one shot anyone.

The terrain specifically says that confusion of terraij is possible and xray vision is not going to solve that. Seeing someone through a wall is not going to change how to get to said person.

The teleporters are going to be huge and the traps are going to be a nuisance to the enemy.


Vanille is not a better mage than Magus. If Bass gors for magus first he is wide open to Seph who has videos showing him cratering metal equivalent to US Battleship or thicker metal with his sword beams/slices.

Vanille is gonna be stuck in a conundrum. Does she ise offensive magic versus Magus and Seph and leave herself open to massive damage or is she, and this is more likely to me, get stuck in a rut of being forced to try and heal over and over damage that is probably more significant than she can heal over time.

I think debuffs that can be put on plus damage from superior magical prowess is going to make Vanille a nonfactor and stuck in a losing cause in which she eventually can't outheal it, assuming they can keep seph off her which is questionable with Sephs quick strikes which she absolutely would be one shot from.
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Home Team Seph
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Team Bass.

It's been enough time for people to vote that I can now cast my own vote. What my writeup above didn't say was that Vanille has Deshellra as a Saboteur. Deshellra lowers magic defense...considerably, at that. Which means that there's no Frog to debuff Magus' MDEF, but he's not needed because Vanille covers that. Couple that with Chrom having long range options if Magus tries to fly away (some of his attacks have archery range IIRC) and I think they can do a solid job vs him. It won't be easy, but Chrom and Vanille are much more impressive than the Chrono Trigger crew. With Bass and Seph busy, it'll be a while before anyone emerges the victor, and Vanille's ability to heal and support Bass probably gives him the win.
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Sephiroth

I still think he outclasses Bass by a massive amount - Bass is tanky with his Life Aura, but shuffleboard speed is not particularly impressive in comparison with AC Sephiroth. He probably doesn't need Magus's help, but it's solid backup.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Chrom and Vanille are much more impressive than the Chrono Trigger crew.

I would probably put Chrom below a CT cast member (based on generic sword lord). Vanille probably on par.
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Chrono Trigger disrespect is a weird bird given the stuff they fight. Particularly Lavos, Mr. "I shoot fireballs that fry the surface of the Earth". Genuinely don't get it
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Seph + home turf
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Bass is pretty legit here. That weapon loadout is obscene.
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