Board 8 > ~FIGHT!~ Lightning/Morrigan/ Dizzy/Poison/Ansem v Kefka/Shlk/ Sorey/Flynn v Kuja

(+) Yeah! (+)

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Kanz I feel like you should know that Vision Quest (...was that a dungeon in Persona 4?) is how he steps up and fights. There are several cutscenes where his eyes are glowing and he is shredding enemies. It's not an either or thing.

Last I checked when I went looking through Xenoblade stuff, most of Shulk's moves don't passively apply. Monado Speed does and I think the buff that makes robots capable of being hurt does too but those are it. It takes him effort to activate Monado Shield for example, which is important here. Gravy wants to argue Shulk can spam buffs, but I'm skeptical he can use the spot-buffs while an enemy much stronger than he is is barrelling down on him and moving so fast she's just a streak of light.
---

shulk literally spams buffs in cutscenes

he literally waves his sword and everyone speeds up that isn't asking much at all.
---

greengravy294 posted...

shulk literally spams buffs in cutscenes

he literally waves his sword and everyone speeds up that isn't asking much at all.

You should like, read my posts man >_>
---

Shield isn't passive but is pretty instant, and the 'effort' to apply such things in game is showed by how often he can do it and it is related to visions. Basically Lightning instantly debuffing does make sense to be perfectly countered by Shulk buffing given the effort it does take him. Also I may be omitting that I think Kuja harms her team more than Shulk due to precog stuff. Kuja's presence and the nature of Shulk tipped the match for me.
---

There is literally a cutscene where Shulk awakens his power to Shield and he saves Reyn's ass from being murdered from a big spider right before he is devoured.
---

I would think Kuja and Kefka would target each other first, being the obvious fliers.
---

KanzarisKelshen posted...

This doesn't answer who checks Lightning. Sorey can probably take care of Ansem, and Kefka and Kuja will keep Dizzy busy, but that leaves...who, Flynn to stop Lightning if Shulk doesn't get dragged into a swordfight with her? There's no chance that goes well for him.

I feel like the relevant matchup here is Sorey versus Lightning. As the two sword powerhouses they're most likely to go at it (and I'm not sure who wins that). So yeah there shouldn't be a problem "checking" Lightning in particular.
---

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Shield isn't passive but is pretty instant, and the 'effort' to apply such things in game is showed by how often he can do it and it is related to visions. Basically Lightning instantly debuffing does make sense to be perfectly countered by Shulk buffing given the effort it does take him. Also I may be omitting that I think Kuja harms her team more than Shulk due to precog stuff. Kuja's presence and the nature of Shulk tipped the match for me.

I'm not sure how Kuja hurts one team more than the other. Flare Star bypasses every form of shielding and also doesn't check against magic resistance. Like...the only instance in which I think this is true is if you think one of Shulk's moves can strip Kuja of his magic and he sees Kuja killing him or his allies, in which case sure, he takes Kuja out of the fight and this makes his team's chances better. But Lightning and Dizzy are tankier than Shulk, Flynn and Sorey (Kefka is definitely in Lightning and Dizzy's league as far as beefiness goes), so any form of indiscriminate AoE is liable to help the tankier side, not the squishier one.
---

Technically Monado Purge removes Auras so I'm sure noted Trance hype artist KanzarisKelshen can tell me that Trance Kuja's Trance won't work as well. =)
---

I feel like the relevant matchup here is Sorey versus Lightning. As the two sword powerhouses they're most likely to go at it (and I'm not sure who wins that). So yeah there shouldn't be a problem "checking" Lightning in particular.

I owned Sorey and I'm pretty much as hyphy as it gets about him and that's a clear Lightning win, I think. Overclock is a pretty strong timebender which gives Lightning a big speed advantage. Lemme see if I can find a vid that shows it off well because it probably explains why I'm like 'why is Lightning getting ignored so hard'.
---

greengravy294 posted...

Technically Monado Purge removes Auras so I'm sure noted Trance hype artist KanzarisKelshen can tell me that Trance Kuja's Trance won't work as well. =)

It's something I'd buy if there's an example of someone going SSJ in Xenoblade that Monado Purge counters. Anything like that somewhere?
---

btw lightning is cosplaying as esper terra, we should be taking this into account
---

So she's naked? This could be a distraction
---

she'd probably distract herself out of shame
---

now granted I have no clue why she is "esper terra" cuz thats not a build in the game, seems like normal terra to me !!
---

well I'm not 100% sure how the cosplay thing works

the terra she fought was perma-esper (and unnerfed) terra, so I just assumed the cosplay would take that form, but maybe it reverts to the base form
---

then yes, I do believe she is naked and flopping all over the place
---

Still looking for a solid vid (LR is such a fucking graphical mess, holy shit) but have this one for now:

https://youtu.be/Brm5E_HZ460?t=176

If you check other bits of the vid you see that the enemy is moving much, much slower while caught in Overclock - barely even getting time to flinch from Lightning's attacks as she goes ham on it. It's a pretty massive speed boost, and what I really think makes her a strong 6 when she otherwise wouldn't quite be. Unless you're Sonic, she almost always has a speedblitz edge in a fight.
---

totally think she'd be normal terra
---

totally think you're WRONG
---

well it's in the write up now so its canon

thankfully there is no doubt that she will appear as Trance Kuja complete with a (wo???)man thong AND as Kefka after this fight so she can truly embrace her feminine side.
---

OK found a vid that illustrates what I meant about 'super timeslow' better:

https://youtu.be/Bn5BNIBD9n8?t=54

Since Caius Ballad is a human enemy it's easier to see just how stuck in place he is while Overclock (the grey bar) is active. Basically no movement during the seconds it lasts, then once it's over he pretty quickly gets up and answers the attacks. At 2:18 you can also see Lightning's time-boosted Limit Break, Army of One, which is pretty damn speedy. Now that I've actually found something that looks a little bit clear I'm done looking through this bad game and can just wait for Gravy to post an example of what Shulk shuts down to see if he makes Kuja worthless or not.
---

/shrug purge removes auras (self-buffs) like the telethia's mind reading abilities so they don't do to him what he does to everyone else.
---

So the question then is if Kuja's Trance counts as a self-buff. Hmm. I gotta think about this one.
---

It's basically a Limit Break that charges off of emotion instead of getting beaten on, so...not really
---

isn't trance an emotional state and not a buff per se
---

"oh"
---

Lightning as Terra actually does matter since it means Kefka is 100% going to go after her.

...and probably die a nasty death in the process before he realizes it's not her.
---

Kinglicious posted...

Lightning as Terra actually does matter since it means Kefka is 100% going to go after her.

...and probably die a nasty death in the process before he realizes it's not her.

...Oh man I didn't even think about that

That's actually a HUGE deal, Kefka trying to pick a fight with Lightning would go so poorly it's unreal
---

yeah, the ideal way to fight terra - get close and melee over having a mage battle - is pretty much the worst way to fight lightning. for a guy like kefka who already knows her, hates her, and knows the ideal way to fight against her, it's pretty damning if he goes after lightning first. he could win against her but not like this; that's 100% an auto-aggro against him that will get him MUCH closer than he should be, giving her a huge chance to surprise him.

i don't know if that was by design or luck but it's a pretty big change in the match.
---

I selected Terra intentionally -- I've never even used the passive before because it didn't ever have any impact I could think of until now.
---

th... then why are you relying on drak to mention her in a throwaway post that's joked about.
at what point do you mention it.

i mean kan missed it in the bold, you didn't remember enough to say so earlier but you DID remember about a passive on the chick who's dead in a few?
---

Basically see this as

Lightning + Dizzy vs Shulk + Kefka + Sorey as far as major damage threats go

Ansem is mostly a tank and disruption, but his team kinda needs offense here, particularly because even under the command of Poison, Dizzy is kinda conditional-- like, this fight gets brutal in a hurry. How much time does Poison have to give an order-- does she phrase something in the form of "help me, Dizzy!!" when things are immediately going down? What's the right way to do it to get Dizzy to attack in a way that's best for her team?

Morrigan is basically worthless on this terrain-- her cast times are killer and they're just starting too close.

Poison is just too outclassed to do anything of use other than hopefully order Dizzy to do something.

Meanwhile you've got Kuja doing his stuff, blasting both teams. This makes Flynn of particular use as Salvation becomes very good when everyone on the field is taking some spread out damage, and makes him a better support-- it also makes it possible that Kuja is the first to truly aggro Dizzy, as I don't think Kefka's gonna be afraid to stay up in there and beat some fools down with Havoc Wing to start the match, then back off into a more ranged mode.

Team Kefka wins more often than not I think. Just not a very good terrain choice for Team Dizzy I don't think.
---

Morrigan is basically worthless on this terrain-- her cast times are killer and they're just starting too close.

Uh

Morrigan's cast times are literally 1 second, yo

If you think she doesn't even have a single second to cast then whatever, but they're very very very short and it's pretty unlikely her frontline can't buy her time to drop a couple spells.

(Specifically:

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Vulnerability_Hex
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Frost_Weapons

'Conjuration time' is the cast time. One second, each. All it takes to give her team a doubling+ of damage is two seconds of casting.)
---

Lopen posted...

as I don't think Kefka's gonna be afraid to stay up in there and beat some fools down with Havoc Wing to start the match, then back off into a more ranged mode.

see, this is the part that i agree with and the part i don't think you're really thinking through.

the FIRST person he's going to try to havoc wing is who he thinks is terra.
the LAST person he should be trying to get into range to use havoc wing is that same person.

so if he seriously does go about this route, where he mixes melee up first before magic, he's going to be a non-factor as she's going to kill him.
---

Hmmm yeah I was misremembering. Was thinking stuff like Inferno (2s) was more the standard cast time.

Unvote briefly while I refresh Morrigan spell list (not sold on frost weapons + vulnerability hex being particularly tide turning with her teamcomp but I know she has useful things)

Also yeah Lightning may punish said Havoc Wings but Shulk's a good guy to cover. Lots of good shields and stuff-- Kefka's not exactly fragile so I don't see him jobbing very easily with Shulk backup.
---

These are probably the most important ones I think:

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Heroic_Offense
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Misdirection_Hex_(Origins)
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Spell_Shield (for self protection)
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Anti-Magic_Ward (to put on Dizzy - Lightning has multiple full heals via Curaga so she shouldn't need the help)


Out of those, Misdirection Hex (causes attacks to 'mysteriously' miss for 20 seconds like the target is getting hit by Psycho Mantis' ability) and Antimagic Ward (immune to magic. Period. Basically a 'Kefka and Kuja do not affect this merc' ticket) are the most important I think.
---

kefka's got plenty of good melee backup, the issue lies that he'd totally go independently at her thinking that she's terra and... lightning is a significantly different fighter and much, much better at melee than him who's gonna take him by surprise. won't even understand how "terra" stabbed him in the neck. the way he's prepared to fight terra would be exactly the way that advantages her best and he doesn't even know it.
---

Kefka has magic defense out the ass, so not sure why he *wouldn't* want to get into a mage battle
---

against what he believes is esper terra, a mage who he knows very well, has spells that ignore magic defense, and he personally likes to torture?

...why would he try to magic battle that when he's got stronger, more capable melee.
---

Anyone care to conjecture about Shulk's "fuck robots" powers vs. Dizzy's "Just how robot is a half-Gear" status?
---

seeing how humans can fuck and have children with gears, "not robot enough" seems reasonable.
---

Honestly I would think Kefka would go for a TK grab on Lightning (he does have that, y'know - uses it on Terra before the final battle even!), pull her in, and THEN try a Havoc Wing instead of rushing in. This is still a bad idea, but more because it puts Lightning in the middle of his team ready to go full Army of One on their asses moreso than him charging forward like a berserker.
---

By spells you mean Ultima. I don't really find that spammable, unless you're rolling with the Dissidia version which seems far less impressive.
---

trdl23 posted...

Anyone care to conjecture about Shulk's "fuck robots" powers vs. Dizzy's "Just how robot is a half-Gear" status?

Gears are magic. Literally! Just because magic in GG is a quantified source of energy doesn't make them not magic.

(Also, I'm honestly not sure how she's half-human. Her father is Sol, and the dude is the Guilty Gear that gives the series its title.)
---

Overall her best stuff for this fight in particular, to me, seems to be

Cone of Cold - not freezing anyone as they all have too much fortitude but the slow could be nasty the few seconds it lasts. Keep in mind this can blast her own teammates though.
Winter's Grasp - the more practical version of Cone of Cold all things considered, but no AoE and half the slow duration
Misdirection Hex - how useful is this against Shulk really I'm not actually sure. Mechanically it makes all normal hits into misses and all critical hits into normal hits, but like, considering Shulk is precognition man I feel like he'd have a naturally high crit rate and it'd be harder than most to throw his aim off.
Heroic Offense - makes Lightning a good deal better for 20s.

Reason why Frost Weapons aren't very useful btw is because the duration on it is sustained-- if Morrigan gets killed and stops putting part of her mana pool towards it, it stops immediately.

Also keep in mind this isn't "Lightning master of disguise as Terra" it's literally "Lightning cosplaying as Terra." I do buy him focusing her to start on principle because he hates Terra, but he's not thinking "oh, it's Terra! I'll bully her in melee!" because they don't actually look alike and given the Lightning Returns costumes that is making reference to she doesn't really try too hard to look like who she's cosplaying
---

DeathChicken posted...

By spells you mean Ultima. I don't really find that spammable, unless you're rolling with the Dissidia version which seems far less impressive.

Not just Ultima - Meteor is another one, I think Meltdown also ignored MDEF...yeah, Mercs Terra is limited to specific spells, but the Terra that killed Kefka wasn't, I don't think.
---

Did I miss something where Terra was supposed to have soloed Kefka? There was a party of like 12 there.
---

DeathChicken posted...

Did I miss something where Terra was supposed to have soloed Kefka? There was a party of like 12 there.

Nah, you didn't. Kefka just has a pretty consistent characterization of being fascinated by both her and Celes - you see it in Dissidia when they interact, where he basically treats her as a doll to play with and torment. Supplemental materials even say that he is taken with them because the magitek process that gave him magic powers started killing his empathy and making him want to break beautiful things.
---

don't think Meltdown is banned either, it's a spell she naturally learns and isn't broken.
Flare also ignores magic defense for the record and should be pretty spammable, especially for esper terra. as does Quake. so that brings the spell list up to five that don't give a fuck about his defenses.
---