Board 8 > This is how political correctness dies

(+) Yeah! (+)

Jakyl25 posted...

I'm really not kidding when I say that either.

If you are letting other people define your self worth, you are doing it wrong.

That works for you, awesome.

If it worked for everyone, PUA wouldn't even be a thing.

LtM coming in here to act dismissive as though he's ever touched a woman in his life.
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current story going around is that the guy got fired.
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Like the douchebag method ever worked for you, lol.
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You've proven over your Board 8 tenure that you're not socially capable of talking to adults no matter what gender they are.
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Jakyl25 posted...

ExThaNemesis posted...

For a lot of guys their depression is intrinsically tied to the fact that they feel totally invisible to women.

I'm really not kidding when I say that either.

If you are letting other people define your self worth, you are doing it wrong.

Jumping into this topic completely cold here.

1) Duh. That is obviously true. The problem here is one, the VAST majority of people define/draw a good deal of their self-worth from others. There's a very small amount of people who have reached such enlightenment and the actual ability to totally let go of our biological instinct, and social training, to draw self-worth from the approval/acceptance of others. Even people who understand this, and say things like this, in the vast majority of cases, STILL define their self-worth, at least in part, to others, or the ideas of society at large, obliviously.

2) Without getting to the point of feeling worthy of others/societies/the opposite genders approval, it is enormously difficult to get to that stage. For most people achieving that value in the eyes of others becomes the launching pad for understand how unimportant it actually is. It is extraordinarily difficult to achieve self-growth and actualization while feeling worthless to those around you, because it will fucking consume you.

So yeah, cool to just throw that out there like it's some simple concept everyone should just automatically get. That's not how life actually works though.
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link here.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-08/google-fires-employee-behind-controversial-diversity-memo


obviously a developing story, news broke like 2m before i posted.
this seems potentially a really dumb idea by google. apart from the drama, making him a martyr and superstar overnight, he might have some legal recourse. california's labor laws are super employee friendly and he's fired over an internal memo that was wrongfully leaked, the VP stated unpopular opinion is okay in their work force, which led to his name being wrongfully leaked, which now leads to him fired.

that's a bit sketchy. but google hasn't said anything so maybe there's more to the story. or a really, really dumb HR person as it's a lot easier to simply not reward him. if you're gonna can him, do so after things die down a bit.
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also found what i assume is the original pdf, with hyperlinks.
http://diversitymemo.com/Googles-Ideological-Echo-Chamber.pdf


the bad: he sourced wikipedia a ton.
the good: the not-wikipedia links for data are solid.
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I want to be as anti-PC as possible but also as Anti-Vlado as possible. What is my best course of action for achieving this?
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get a mac.
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ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

I want to be as anti-PC as possible but also as Anti-Vlado as possible. What is my best course of action for achieving this?

Burn a Playboy Mansion to the ground.
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Wanglicious posted...

get a mac.

unacceptable. suicide is precisely 13294% better as options go.
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ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

I want to be as anti-PC as possible but also as Anti-Vlado as possible. What is my best course of action for achieving this?

Admit that a career is more important to how people view a man than a woman, but think blaming Muslims, Jewish people, homosexuals, trans, women and men, etc is fucking stupid. And just acknowledge that its primarily biological impulses sexually dimorphic species. And this will not change as long as status is defined as wealth.
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MenuWars posted...

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

I want to be as anti-PC as possible but also as Anti-Vlado as possible. What is my best course of action for achieving this?

Burn a Playboy Mansion to the ground.

Unacceptable. I would enjoy such a place too much. I would drink and party and do drugs and attempt to hit on hot women. I would inevitably fail, but I wouldn't really care because I'd enjoy myself in the process and would know that even if I succeeded, in all likelihood, I would be too fucked up to finish anyway.
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Metal_DK posted...

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

I want to be as anti-PC as possible but also as Anti-Vlado as possible. What is my best course of action for achieving this?

Admit that a career is more important to how people view a man than a woman, but think blaming Muslims, Jewish people, homosexuals, trans, women and men, etc is fucking stupid. And just acknowledge that its primarily biological impulses sexually dimorphic species.

Unacceptable. Don't care about any of that, plus I haven't figured out exactly how to steal a good career and I'm not interested in annoying ones that require more than I'm prepared to offer, plus I would rather blame individuals than groups.
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Embrace the Vlado then.
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move to sweden and make swedish babies.
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MenuWars posted...

Embrace the Vlado then.

Unacceptable. Advocating the existence of lizard people is only fun in jest, while legitimately believing it is psychologically detrimental.
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Wanglicious posted...

move to sweden and make swedish babies.

Moving to Sweden would be acceptable. Further instructions required.

Making babies is unacceptable. It is flagrantly in disregard of "anything I'd be willing to do"
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but really, i feel like people don't realize what they're doing

when you go full blitz in exiling or shunning well-intentioned people who hold incorrect views, you're essentially handing the far (or alt) right their greatest recruiting tool

i'm not sure what the right solution is
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the right solution is making yourself feel morally superior
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HotDogButts posted...

So yeah, cool to just throw that out there like it's some simple concept everyone should just automatically get. That's not how life actually works though.

We just need to provide more accessible therapy for young adults. Once you work through what you REALLY want when you get depressed that no one will fuck you, it becomes so much easier.
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that one's easy, the right solution was to do nothing. if you're trying to get rid of him?
he was going to speak to a couple people later in the month, wait, see how that goes. in the worst case you simply wait around, don't promote him, see what internal policies exist to get rid of him through proper channels, and that's it. or he'll eventually leave. best case, he says something he shouldn't, out.

but his overall point did just get proven right. he said google has a culture problem where difference of opinion isn't allowed, that diversity of thought is a problem. he was very clear that at no point did he say any one woman was inferior, that this was all broad stats, not to specific people, and he wanted policy to be about specific people.

...so they went and proved his point.
funny thing is, he's a liberal too. whoops.
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and here we go

https://twitter.com/daiwaka/status/894747912701263873

James Damore, the Google engineer who wrote the memo, said he will likely take legal action against the company. Believes G acted illegally.
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Guy who's unpopular but probably in the right in this case vs MegaCorporation with plenty of cash to throw at their problems

This sounds like a case that will get settled without a trial
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yeah I wouldn't be surprised to see a settlement here.
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agreed, that's the likely outcome.
he'll also get to become a megastar for a bit too. some on the left and all of the right are looking at him and seeing dollars. like the tag line is perfect - "google's response to a guy saying there's a problem with diversity of thought in an internal memo was fired for it."

can go a step further, i don't think anyone's doubting that he got harassed after his name leaked. firing a guy who gets harassed over a leak, smooth.
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Except considering the whole reason for his termination, this truly might be about principle for the guy. Dunno how much he was making at Google, but he's probably not desperate for cash. If his legal team concludes he has a legit case wouldn't be surprised to see this go down.
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Bill Mahar is probably on the phone right now
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Wanglicious posted...

this seems potentially a really dumb idea by google. apart from the drama, making him a martyr and superstar overnight, he might have some legal recourse. california's labor laws are super employee friendly and he's fired over an internal memo that was wrongfully leaked, the VP stated unpopular opinion is okay in their work force, which led to his name being wrongfully leaked, which now leads to him fired.

Eh, every tech company I've worked at in California has had basic codes of conduct. (And in Georgia for that matter). Stuff like don't be racist to your coworkers, don't engage in sexual harassment, that kind of stuff.

I'm sure Google has a code of conduct. And it's a simple enough case to say that an internal memo that implies Google shouldn't hire women or black people is a violation of their code of conduct.




Being real for a moment. This guy is 23, and pretty new to the job. I remember being that age, working a programming job, and sending some stupid stuff I really shouldn't have sent to company-wide emails. Some of which, if it had leaked to the public, honestly might theoretically have gotten me fired. Instead I got a slap on the wrist, got told not to do it again, and continued my career.

The fact that this document became international news is probably why he got fired here (instead of just a slap on the wrist). And from Google's perspective it makes perfect sense. For instance, Google's been trying to recruit me for years, and I'm sure this is true for many other women with decades of programming experience. If they keep that guy around, people like me are going to squint at their recruiting efforts and say "eh, nah, I can work anywhere, why work with that guy?" (And frankly, their recruiters care a lot more about getting people with 13 years of experience than people with 3 years of experience).
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i would like to see it go that way.
if you didn't see the NYT article because twitter, here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/07/business/google-women-engineer-fired-memo.html


this part is also important:
Before being fired, Mr. Damore said he submitted a complaint to the National Labor Relations Board claiming that Google’s upper management was “misrepresenting and shaming me in order to silence my complaints.” He added that it was “illegal to retaliate” against an N.L.R.B. charge.

there were also some people talking about internal blacklists - that would also be illegal.
if he really wants to go hard here he should have something to work with. i'd like to see him fight it but i expect settlement.
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yeah moral of the story is don't cause an HR and PR disaster for your employer
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Wanglicious posted...

i would like to see it go that way.
if you didn't see the NYT article because twitter, here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/07/business/google-women-engineer-fired-memo.html


this part is also important:
Before being fired, Mr. Damore said he submitted a complaint to the National Labor Relations Board claiming that Google’s upper management was “misrepresenting and shaming me in order to silence my complaints.” He added that it was “illegal to retaliate” against an N.L.R.B. charge.

there were also some people talking about internal blacklists - that would also be illegal.
if he really wants to go hard here he should have something to work with. i'd like to see him fight it but i expect settlement.

Why?
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banananor posted...

WhoopsyDaisy posted...

What is his actual primary complaint? Can you phrase his primary complaint in a way that he would consider fair? Because it sounds like you don't mention it at all here. Here's a hint: it's not that he thinks he's being silenced.

i'd be more interested to hear how you would phrase it, actually. i'm totally open to hearing that i completely missed every relevant point

I don't blame you for not reading this with the amount of nuance and consideration I gave it, because he does kinda sound crazy. His primary complaint is that Google discriminates on the basis of race and gender in the following ways:

the memo posted...

Programs, mentoring, and classes only for people with a certain gender or race [5]
A high priority queue and special treatment for “diversity” candidates
Hiring practices which can effectively lower the bar for “diversity” candidates by decreasing the false negative rate
Reconsidering any set of people if it’s not “diverse” enough, but not showing that same scrutiny in the reverse direction (clear confirmation bias)
Setting org level OKRs for increased representation which can incentivize illegal discrimination [6]

Some of these things may or may not be problems (3 and 4 in particular I think are judgment calls) but the first 2 are definitely wrong.

He suggests supporting people who want to work part-time, or people who want to alternate using the keyboard with their partner, as a way to improve everyone's options with the added effect of increasing female representation by creating useful roles where the best applicant is more likely to be female. Because both of those undersupported groups are more female than the industry at large.

He advocates for these policies partially on the basis that they would increase diversity. He claims to believe that racial and gender diversity are inherently good (which I don't, because if you play swap-the-races-and-the-genders there's no reason to suspect they'd become a more or less effective team, but whatever). But Google's attempt at reaching it is discriminatory.
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metroid composite posted...

And it's a simple enough case to say that an internal memo that implies Google shouldn't hire women or black people

he literally never said this. at no point does he say don't hire women and black people don't ever come up. his point on that subject is that you shouldn't strive for having 50/50 male/female because there are other reasons why parity won't ever be hit, it's not sexist to point them out.

edit:
looked at the text.
there's this line right here:

"I strongly believe in gender and racial diversity, and I think we should strive for more."

and this:

"I hope it's clear that I'm not saying that diversity is bad, that Google or society is 100% fair, that
we shouldn't try to correct for existing biases, or that minorities have the same experience of
those in the majority. My larger point is that we have an intolerance for ideas and evidence that
don't fit a certain ideology. I'm also not saying that we should restrict people to certain gender
roles; I'm advocating for quite the opposite: treat people as individuals, not as just another
member of their group (tribalism)."



pretty clear that no, he wasn't advocating for fewer women or minorities.
quite the opposite, he wants more of it but done in different ways, as well as a focus on a different kind (diversity of thought).

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Why?

i've a fairly strong "fight 'em to decision" attitude when it comes to lawsuits. i hate the way everything ends up being a settlement where they wash their hands and say "we did nothing wrong," partially due to the fact that i hate the way court cases are dragged out over years.

like if you break it down i end up being of two minds. no, i don't want him to spend 2-5 years working on a case where google's lawyers continuously drain him and reset the case at every chance they can get. they can do that because they have infinite money, he doesn't. the technical aspects of fighting the case are not things i wish upon him. if he had a source of infinite money then by all means, i'd hope he fights 'em. but he shouldn't have to suffer through the corporate side of the legal system.
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MenuWars posted...

ExThaNemesis posted...

MenuWars posted...

Could you get Luster laid?

Perhaps he should buy my E-Book on Amazon for $10.99 to see if my teachings work for him!

@LusterSoldier

I've seen this message just now.

I don't think ExTha has actually published an E-Book, though.
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Wanglicious posted...

i've a fairly strong "fight 'em to decision" attitude when it comes to lawsuits. i hate the way everything ends up being a settlement where they wash their hands and say "we did nothing wrong," partially due to the fact that i hate the way court cases are dragged out over years.

like if you break it down i end up being of two minds. no, i don't want him to spend 2-5 years working on a case where google's lawyers continuously drain him and reset the case at every chance they can get. they can do that because they have infinite money, he doesn't. the technical aspects of fighting the case are not things i wish upon him. if he had a source of infinite money then by all means, i'd hope he fights 'em. but he shouldn't have to suffer through the corporate side of the legal system.

Ok but like, a relatively new employee (or at least, I assume he is, being only 23) sent a politically charged email to his entire company, said company being one of the biggest in the world.

Even if it was benign, that's probably a fireable offense.
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he's been working there full time since 2013, about 4 years. not really "long term employee" but by no means a new or relatively new one.


Software Engineer
Google
December 2013 – Present (3 years 9 months)

Software Engineering Intern
Google
May 2013 – August 2013 (4 months)



edit:
and before that you've got him as an MIT research scientist for over a year, an intern at Harvard, and an intern at Princeton. pretty stacked.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Wanglicious posted...

i've a fairly strong "fight 'em to decision" attitude when it comes to lawsuits. i hate the way everything ends up being a settlement where they wash their hands and say "we did nothing wrong," partially due to the fact that i hate the way court cases are dragged out over years.

like if you break it down i end up being of two minds. no, i don't want him to spend 2-5 years working on a case where google's lawyers continuously drain him and reset the case at every chance they can get. they can do that because they have infinite money, he doesn't. the technical aspects of fighting the case are not things i wish upon him. if he had a source of infinite money then by all means, i'd hope he fights 'em. but he shouldn't have to suffer through the corporate side of the legal system.

Ok but like, a relatively new employee (or at least, I assume he is, being only 23) sent a politically charged email to his entire company, said company being one of the biggest in the world.

Even if it was benign, that's probably a fireable offense.

It's probably a fireable offence, yeah, less so for being "politically charged" whatever that means, and more so for internal code of conduct stuff which you sign when you become an employee.

But sending emails that violate codes of conducts happens in companies I've worked for, and it usually doesn't result in a firing in most cases I've seen. Usually HR or their boss just talks to the person, explains to them how they messed up, etc. Probably many of these could have been used as legal justification for firing, but normally people get a second chance. often too many chances. (This one company I worked for, a guy would open up porn at his desk and masturbate to it, genitals out in the open. He only got fired after the third time it happened.... Obviously could have been fired the first time, with legal justification).
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Wanglicious posted...

he's been working there full time since 2013, about 4 years. not really "long term employee" but by no means a new or relatively new one.


Software Engineer
Google
December 2013 – Present (3 years 9 months)

Software Engineering Intern
Google
May 2013 – August 2013 (4 months)



edit:
and before that you've got him as an MIT research scientist for over a year, an intern at Harvard, and an intern at Princeton. pretty stacked.

Eh, 3.5 years experience and some what look like university work placement COOP programs. It's maybe what my resume would have looked like a decade ago. Not bad for someone fresh out of college, but still someone relatively fresh out of college.
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Oh, missed this.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

email to his entire company

Also wrong.
Posted on an internal board within the company. Who that included we don't know but wasn't an email and wasn't to the whole company. Or likely even most of it really. But it went viral out of there and then went public.

metroid composite posted...

Not bad for someone fresh out of college, but still someone relatively fresh out of college.

Don't do that.
The statement was he's a new employee or relatively new employee.

He's been working for Google for 4 years. That'd be past that. Ain't a vet but by no means new.
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Kinglicious posted...

Don't do that.
The statement was he's a new employee or relatively new employee.

He's been working for Google for 4 years. That'd be past that. Ain't a vet but by no means new.

Having experienced applying for jobs a few times (games industry is pretty unstable, so I've had lots of companies close on me)...5 years is a bit of a magic number where you're seen as having much more experience. People were skeptical of me when I had 4.5 years experience, and gave me tons of job offers when I had 6 years experience.

So yes, 3.5 years does fall under my threshold of fairly new.

In terms of looking good on a resume, though, the name Google carries a fair bit of weight, and 3.5 years of unbroken experience at the same employer looks a lot better than, say, multiple 6 month stints at different employers. (6 months is about how long it takes to train a new employee, so that means they really did not get work done). So eh, he should be ok finding another job. But yeah, the under 5 years thing means he won't get that many offers.
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...looking for new employment is a completely different subject.

they had him as an intern and chose to hire him full time. his total time at google is a bit over four years - that's how long they've known him and have been working with him. job offers and wanting more experience at a place are entirely different standards than whether you're new at a company or not. new's still in probation or training, relatively new's just a bit more than that, four years in that's not what you are at all. at that point, in any job, you're a set cog in a machine.
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lol, they really fired the guy, which only proved everything he said 100% right. No doubt he'll get rich after the inevitable lawsuit settlement... But the message they're sending is one of their own demise.

Anyway, the large importance of this is not so much even because of the contents of the article (truths intelligent people have known forever), but because it went viral, initially and importantly inside google. It wouldn't have got traction if it was easily dismissible. The truth hits hard, and cultural marxists know that the non-converts' doubts grow larger and larger with something like this. Firing the guy only furthers our cause.
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Vlado posted...

lol, they really fired the guy, which only proved everything he said 100% right. No doubt he'll get rich after the inevitable lawsuit settlement... But the message they're sending is one of their own demise.

Anyway, the large importance of this is not so much even because of the contents of the article (truths intelligent people have known forever), but because it went viral, initially and importantly inside google. It wouldn't have got traction if it was easily dismissible. The truth hits hard, and cultural marxists know that the non-converts' doubts grow larger and larger with something like this. Firing the guy only furthers our cause.

Making your transition to JRPG midboss, huh
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How long do you think it will take Google to perish from this injustice? 3 weeks? 4?
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Don't give him that credit, he's the sideboss in a quest meant to reveal a plot detail that is only there out of gameplay necessity. You know, the guy watching the factory where they're harvesting mana from elves.
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Lots of empires and companies thought they were too big to fail once... Google won't be any different. But it's more likely they'll simply get rid of most of the insanity. By then, of course, they'll have shrunk in size.
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In 1998, Google consisted entirely of straight white men

What was so bad about that?
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https://archive.is/VlNfl

Interesting read. George Takei just posted about it on FB and the comments section has turned into the shit show, ironically, that the memo hoped to address. Sad times.
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MenuWars posted...

https://archive.is/VlNfl

Interesting read. George Takei just posted about it on FB and the comments section has turned into the shit show, ironically, that the memo hoped to address. Sad times.

That first guy is on point...he said basically everything that I've tried to say in this topic.
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