Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 126: Manufacturing Outrage

(+) Yeah! (+)

CelesMyUserName posted...

pjbasis posted...

MoogleKupo141 posted...

because they're bad guys destroying not bad things

people tearing down confederate statues are good guys tearing down bad things

I am a good guy and you are a bad guy! That's great

I mean yeah you guys kinda had a war against the confederates over the right to own people

you guys?
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xp1337 posted...

But do you think they were representative of the societies of the areas they controlled?

Within the context of the confederate statues, removing them is pursued through the legitimate levers of democratic government.

Yes, actually. The Buddha statues in Afghanistan were put up thousands of years ago. It has not been a Buddhist area since China lost a war to the Abbasid Caliphate in the 700s. Similarly, Palmyra has not been Roman or Palmyrene since the 600s. The people who built the monuments are long gone.

As for the CSA statues, it started that way. The one in Durham was not removed through the democratic process. If some right wing vigilantes take down the statue of Lenin in Seattle, that won't be through the democratic process either. I know they haven't done it yet, but I really don't put it past them.
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pjbasis posted...

CelesMyUserName posted...

pjbasis posted...

MoogleKupo141 posted...

because they're bad guys destroying not bad things

people tearing down confederate statues are good guys tearing down bad things

I am a good guy and you are a bad guy! That's great

I mean yeah you guys kinda had a war against the confederates over the right to own people

you guys?

pjbasis posted...

It was clearly directed at Americans. You guys making me struggle here.

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Honestly I've been skipping the arguments in these topics ever since they became 70% Wang a few topics ago. My comment was about how the nation as a whole is reacting to the statue 'controversy'. I don't consider my statement a low blow either, there are many people out there who care significantly more about a statue of Robert E. Lee than the rights of people who aren't white.
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It was in slight jest lmao
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pjbasis posted...

CelesMyUserName posted...

pjbasis posted...

MoogleKupo141 posted...

because they're bad guys destroying not bad things

people tearing down confederate statues are good guys tearing down bad things

I am a good guy and you are a bad guy! That's great

I mean yeah you guys kinda had a war against the confederates over the right to own people

you guys?

canada wasn't part of the american civil war
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red sox 777 posted...

Yes, actually.

Were the people there calling for their removal?

And removing statues without going through the proper legal channels is destruction of property or vandalism. (Or maybe some other legal term.) I don't think that's the way to go about it.
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KamikazePotato posted...

I don't consider my statement a low blow either, there are many people out there who care significantly more about a statue of Robert E. Lee than the rights of people who aren't white.

That's fine, but someone defended you with the same assumption I had so I'm not the only one who thought it was misleading!
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Jakyl25 posted...

BowserCuffs posted...

For starters, the Germans didn't leave relics of the old Nazi regime intact - they literally blew them up, and destroyed them, and made new monuments to remember the people oppressed and murdered by the Nazis.

And look - their neo Nazis are forced underground and given no legitimacy and are harshly prosecuted for their actions, meaning that they don't become a problem like they are here.

So, no, I don't think there's any historical problem with tearing down statues. I do think there are historical problems with leaving it up.

Even this is missing what actually happened

They didn't just "leave these statues up" after the Civil War. They were built 50-60 years later specifically to intimidate black people

https://www.splcenter.org/20160421/whose-heritage-public-symbols-confederacy

But two distinct periods saw a significant rise in the dedication of monuments and other symbols.

The first began around 1900, amid the period in which states were enacting Jim Crow laws to disenfranchise the newly freed African Americans and re-segregate society. This spike lasted well into the 1920s, a period that saw a dramatic resurgence of the Ku Klux Klan, which had been born in the immediate aftermath of the Civil War.

The second spike began in the early 1950s and lasted through the 1960s, as the civil rights movement led to a backlash among segregationists. These two periods also coincided with the 50th and 100th anniversaries of the Civil War.
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I just don't really thinks it's a good practice to say you guys when nobody alive was there.

Might as well tell living germans they started the holocaust!
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SupremeZero posted...

Panthera posted...

Peace___Frog posted...

Panthera posted...

Donald Trump is way more likely to lead to a Democrat controlled fascist regime than Republican controlled one

You're delusional.

Trump is way too unpopular to actually gain total control. Opposition to Trump could hypothetically use his unpopularity to justify taking steps to "prevent another Trump". It's not like it's remotely likely or anything but yeah Trump is way too shitty to get the traction to not have a civil war for trying to become King Donald

He means the idea that he'd result in a Democrat fascist regime.

I know. In response to the idea (presented not very seriously, I know) that Trump might have the support to create a fascist regime, I said (also not meant to be piercing societal insight) that it was more likely that his opponents could use his idiocy to make themselves the fascist overlords.
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I'm confused, my statement was that you fought the racists before and you're comparing that to... germans starting the holocaust?

what

... why aren't you proud of defeating the racists
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Philosophically, I think it's a good exercise for rational people not to seriously use words like good and evil.

But, I don't see that getting much traction.
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pjbasis posted...

I just don't really thinks it's a good practice to say you guys when nobody alive was there.

Might as well tell living germans they started the holocaust!

Come on, Peej.
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xp1337 posted...

And removing statues without going through the proper legal channels is destruction of property or vandalism. (Or maybe some other legal term.) I don't think that's the way to go about it.

There's probably slippery slope arguments to be made about this sort of behavior, but honestly there is no way to make me care about the injustice of statues representing fucked up periods in American history being torn down.
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pjbasis posted...

Philosophically, I think it's a good exercise for rational people not to seriously use words like good and evil.

But, I don't see that getting much traction.

hoisted on your own petard
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CelesMyUserName posted...

I'm confused, my statement was that you fought the racists before and you're comparing that to... germans starting the holocaust?

what

... why aren't you proud of defeating the racists

I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I didn't participate in any wars. Neither did my ancestors! I'm a first generation American.

I'm being picky but it also really does irk me when people do that.
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MoogleKupo141 posted...

pjbasis posted...

Philosophically, I think it's a good exercise for rational people not to seriously use words like good and evil.

But, I don't see that getting much traction.

hoisted on your own petard

rofl
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The most accurate way to put my feelings about abandoning slavery is that I'm glad to have been born after that, and proud of those portions of humanity that did it.
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http://washingtonjournal.com/2017/08/16/robert-e-lees-family-just-gave-unexpected-response-trumps-charlottesville-controversy/

Lee's family is down to remove the statues

But what if they forget he existed??? Will that cause them to...disappear from the time stream?
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KamikazePotato posted...

xp1337 posted...

And removing statues without going through the proper legal channels is destruction of property or vandalism. (Or maybe some other legal term.) I don't think that's the way to go about it.

There's probably slippery slope arguments to be made about this sort of behavior, but honestly there is no way to make me care about the injustice of statues representing fucked up periods in American history being torn down.

I didn't say you had to care! Just that you shouldn't suspend the law and go "well i guess that's fine"

If people want to say that, fine. But the legal system probably shouldn't. Of course the legal system is operated by people so I mean that wouldn't preclude pardons or jury nullification or what have you.
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america fought against slavery in the civil war, this is a fact

I would've gladly said "we" but I'm not american so I couldn't, this is an American topic so "you guys" is a contextual reference to the region of this topic
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pjbasis posted...

The most accurate way to put my feelings about abandoning slavery is that I'm glad to have been born after that, and proud of those portions of humanity that did it.

I have some unfortunate news for you about our prison system
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Jakyl25 posted...

http://washingtonjournal.com/2017/08/16/robert-e-lees-family-just-gave-unexpected-response-trumps-charlottesville-controversy/

Lee's family is down to remove the statues

But what if they forget he existed??? Will that cause them to...disappear from the time stream?

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Jakyl25 posted...

But what if they forget he existed??? Will that cause them to...disappear from the time stream?

isn't this the plot of that lost sphear game that's coming out later
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CelesMyUserName posted...

america fought against slavery in the civil war, this is a fact

I would've gladly said "we" but I'm not american so I couldn't, this is an American topic so "you guys" is a contextual reference to the region of this topic

I get it. I'll apologize for being roundabout. It wasn't that important of a point, though I think it's an interesting side conversation about language and stuff.
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Jakyl25 posted...

pjbasis posted...

The most accurate way to put my feelings about abandoning slavery is that I'm glad to have been born after that, and proud of those portions of humanity that did it.

I have some unfortunate news for you about our prison system

My philosophy with regards to imprisonment is really undeveloped! I wouldn't mind talking about it.
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hey jakyl, pewdiepie vid you'll like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKvMtWzchs0

pjbasis posted...

Philosophically, I think it's a good exercise for rational people not to seriously use words like good and evil.

But, I don't see that getting much traction.

i get where you're coming from here and used to be more in that camp though it never quite felt right. eventually i refined it to using those terms in reference to ideas or actions, not people. there's good ideas, evil ideas; good actions, evil actions. when you refer to it as a person, you're associating a lot with them and practically dismiss everything they have to offer when you call them evil. when you call someone good, that's a bit different, you're basically saying they're a cool guy worthy of respect. i think the opposite there is basically something calling someone a saint.
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https://twitter.com/onlxn/status/897952645259722753

Bannon has grand plans for the Korean Peninsula and Chinese relations!

Muahahaha
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I think it feels fine.

And I think I can describe and differentiate lots of ideas and actions without calling them good or bad. Or rather, first we provide a context for the goal of a society, and then good and bad relate to how well they achieve those goals.
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Wanglicious posted...

hey jakyl, pewdiepie vid you'll like

I'm having trouble processing this sentence

(FWIW I was probably closer to your side than the MSM on his scandal in particular)
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haha, probably. but it's the first 2:30 or so in that vid. he's a well known guy who's used nazi jokes and nazi memes and he had a couple things to say about charlottesville there. you asked if people who use that are reflecting on what they've said in the past.

figure the biggest youtuber is a good example for "yes, a lot are."
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I'm sure Vlado will be outraged. Self-censorship is worse than authoritarian censorship!! Soros created black people!!!

Yes I know pewds said "this isn't self-censorship" but come on
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God now I'm wondering about Vlado. He never told us where he got his human evolution theories from after he declared that each race evolved independently from each other with no common ancestors!
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Jakyl25 posted...

God now I'm wondering about Vlado. He never told us where he got his human evolution theories from after he declared that each race evolved independently from each other with no common ancestors!

...

okay i want to hear the story behind this one
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Wanglicious posted...

when you call someone good, that's a bit different, you're basically saying they're a cool guy worthy of respect.

I guess it needs to be explained that like, I use the words good and evil in lots of contexts all the time. Words have different definitions in various contexts. Characters in fiction are good and evil because they are, by comparison, far simpler than actual human beings. And it's not like I'm actually gonna go around correcting people who think Hitler was evil or slavery is evil and stuff lol. Colloquially the words have good utility in describing things we like and don't like.

But in very real and serious terms I don't use those words because they don't have actual meaning in nature. There's probably a word for that. Bet it's called Objectivism or Naturalism or something lol
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xp1337 posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

God now I'm wondering about Vlado. He never told us where he got his human evolution theories from after he declared that each race evolved independently from each other with no common ancestors!

...

okay i want to hear the story behind this one

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Wanglicious posted...

haha, probably. but it's the first 2:30 or so in that vid. he's a well known guy who's used nazi jokes and nazi memes and he had a couple things to say about charlottesville there. you asked if people who use that are reflecting on what they've said in the past.

figure the biggest youtuber is a good example for "yes, a lot are."

Oh you jerk, you are going to make me click on a Pewdiepie video.
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i used to loathe pewdiepie, but the videos where he just talks about stuff are actually fine.
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@ExThaNemesis What's Milo's take on all this? He's been pretty vocal about being Anti Nazi from the start from what I've seen now he's basically a leader for the Alt Right movement that has now been visibly aligned with them.
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pjbasis posted...

xp1337 posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

God now I'm wondering about Vlado. He never told us where he got his human evolution theories from after he declared that each race evolved independently from each other with no common ancestors!

...

okay i want to hear the story behind this one

Vlado was arguing for nationalism IN A TOTALLY NOT RACIST WAY YOU GUYS and someone brought up the fact that all of Earth spawned from a common ancestor. Vlado called that bullshit propaganda spouted by ignorant scientists. To which I believe it was either me and Jakyl or me and Moogle who asked "Well, the Bible says all humanity spawned from the same two individuals as well...so what logic are YOU using to support your mindset if not science or religion?" He never responded.
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"What's Milo's take on all this?", should nobody ask ever.
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Inviso posted...

Vlado was arguing for nationalism IN A TOTALLY NOT RACIST WAY YOU GUYS and someone brought up the fact that all of Earth spawned from a common ancestor. Vlado called that bullshit propaganda spouted by ignorant scientists.

lol. too bad i missed this one.
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I seem to remember Vlado also having some bullshit "scientific" argument against interracial marriage

Definitely not a racist though guys!
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xp1337 posted...

red sox 777 posted...

Yes, actually.

Were the people there calling for their removal?

And removing statues without going through the proper legal channels is destruction of property or vandalism. (Or maybe some other legal term.) I don't think that's the way to go about it.

The people in Afghanistan and Eastern Syria? Probably. By all indications, a majority of people there supported the Taliban/ISIS.
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MenuWars posted...

@ExThaNemesis What's Milo's take on all this? He's been pretty vocal about being Anti Nazi from the start from what I've seen now he's basically a leader for the Alt Right movement that has now been visibly aligned with them.

Dunno about Milo, but Ben Shapiro (not a member of the alt right at all but super hardline conservative) retweeted this:

https://twitter.com/allahpundit/status/897553073211662343
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LordoftheMorons posted...

I seem to remember Vlado also having some bullshit "scientific" argument against interracial marriage

Definitely not a racist though guys!

This is a common white supremacist refrain as of late

It's part of what they mean when they say "white genocide" exists, along with the promotion of birth control, contraceptives, and abortion rights.

They were all conceived and promoted by Zionist Jews to whittle down the white population over time.
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To clarify on the Wang Nationalist thing, I brought up the possibility based on his arguments and 4 other users agreed with me right afterwards, with Jakyl saying he didn't think so while also seeing how one could think that

I couldn't tell you who, we'd have to check the tapes.

Suprak the Stud posted...

MenuWars posted...

@ExThaNemesis What's Milo's take on all this? He's been pretty vocal about being Anti Nazi from the start from what I've seen now he's basically a leader for the Alt Right movement that has now been visibly aligned with them.

Dunno about Milo, but Ben Shapiro (not a member of the alt right at all but super hardline conservative) retweeted this:

https://twitter.com/allahpundit/status/897553073211662343

Shapiro is also Jewish and often gets brigaded by anti-Semites

INCLUDING BREITBART ITSELF AFTER HE QUIT THE SITE BECAUSE THEY WERE TOO PRO-TRUMP
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red sox you still never answered when I asked why from your point of view it is more acceptable that monuments/statues be torn down if done so in the aftermath of a war. =(

But also more generally, I mean, I'd argue that a statue/monument itself being taken down speaks to the mindset of a society just as much as it having been built in the first place. Certainly it was built for a reason, but that it is allowed to remain also speaks to the society's mindset, as does its removal.

The history of the figures behind the statues will remain. The history of there being a statue will remain. And so will the history of the debate and removal of the statue.
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