Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 126: Manufacturing Outrage

(+) Yeah! (+)

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/16/us/robert-e-lee-statues-letters-trnd/index.html

Lee actually felt like there shouldn't be any confederate monuments.
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SgtSphynx posted...

I'm sure this will be brushed off as fake news or whatever, but...
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/

Holy shit, I never knew any of this.

So I guess Lee was a cowardly worthless piece if human garbage. It's amazing how much of history can so easily rewritten and people just not realize it.

pjbasis posted...

... In this enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country. It is useless to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence.

— Robert E. Lee, to Mary Anna Lee, December 27, 1856

The South, in my opinion, has been aggrieved by the acts of the North, as you say. I feel the aggression, and am willing to take every proper step for redress. It is the principle I contend for, not individual or private benefit. As an American citizen, I take great pride in my country, her prosperity and institutions, and would defend any State if her rights were invaded. But I can anticipate no greater calamity for the country than a dissolution of the Union. It would be an accumulation of all the evils we complain of, and I am willing to sacrifice everything but honor for its preservation. I hope, therefore, that all constitutional means will be exhausted before there is a resort to force. Secession is nothing but revolution. The framers of our Constitution never exhausted so much labor, wisdom, and forbearance in its formation, and surrounded it with so many guards and securities, if it was intended to be broken by every member of the Confederacy at will. It was intended for "perpetual union," so expressed in the preamble, and for the establishment of a government, not a compact, which can only be dissolved by revolution, or the consent of all the people in convention assembled.

Mr. Blair, I look upon secession as anarchy. If I owned the four millions of slaves in the South I would sacrifice them all to the Union; but how can I draw my sword upon Virginia, my native state?

These are direct quotes from letters he wrote! He still held the racist view that blacks were a race that needed some kind of help from the white race, but it's hard to say abolitionists didn't also hold those views. Back then thinking blacks should be free didn't equate to you thought they were equal to whites in every way. We're talking about a society that wouldn't even give women a right to vote! Judging people back then is a tricky business imo. It's not like any of us white boys would have necessarily been so liberal if we grew up in the 1800s south.

Abraham Lincoln's letters were the same vein in many cases. It is hard to really explain how much society was indoctrined with that back then.
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MalcolmMasher posted...

Lee owned slaves; the man was no abolitionist. I don't think it's at all reasonable to say that he was anti-slavery.

This is true. I think slavery wasn't really the biggest concern for him.

This one isn't a quote but from wikipedia again

The evidence cited in favor of the claim that Lee opposed slavery included his direct statements and his actions before and during the war, including Lee's support of the work by his wife and her mother to liberate slaves and fund their move to Liberia,[69] the success of his wife and daughter in setting up an illegal school for slaves on the Arlington plantation,[70] the freeing of Custis' slaves in 1862, and, as the Confederacy's position in the war became desperate, his petitioning slaveholders in 1864–65 to allow slaves to volunteer for the Army with manumission offered as a reward for outstanding service.[71][72]
However, despite his stated opinions, Lee's troops under his command were allowed to raid settlements during major operations like the 1863 invasion of Pennsylvania to capture free blacks for enslavement.
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Corrik posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

I just don't get what Corrik wants exactly?

Do you want me to dedicate a topic to the memory of Robert E Lee?

I think i am saying there seems to be a huge recency bias and lack of perspective.

well yeah, this is a topic about news, it's all about recency

we don't make enough topics to dedicate them to every person who has ever died, but if we did, Lee is way down the list on people we should be honoring.
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MoogleKupo141 posted...

Corrik posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

I just don't get what Corrik wants exactly?

Do you want me to dedicate a topic to the memory of Robert E Lee?

I think i am saying there seems to be a huge recency bias and lack of perspective.

well yeah, this is a topic about news, it's all about recency

we don't make enough topics to dedicate them to every person who has ever died, but if we did, Lee is way down the list on people we should be honoring.

Fair enough.
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I think a major part of "making a martyr" out of Heather Heyer is that the President equates her murder to the relatively minor (but still in some cases repulsive) injuries caused by counter-protestors.
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https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/897974118959783937

This tweet was posted AFTER Phoenix mayor asked him not to come, I think <_<
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And like she got hit by a car.

Nothing says terrorist more than that these days! Though I guess it's a good thing we weaned them off of bombs
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pjbasis posted...

And like she got hit by a car.

Nothing says terrorist more than that these days! Though I guess it's a good thing we weaned them off of bombs

Dude arrested in OKC had a bomb :-(
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Jakyl25 posted...

I think a major part of "making a martyr" out of Heather Heyer is that the President equates her murder to the relatively minor (but still in some cases repulsive) injuries caused by counter-protestors.

Let me ask you this...

If a counter protester ran a car into the Unite to Right rally killing what was confirmed to be a not White Supremacist who was just marching about the statue, how would you act in comparison to Heather?

Seriously curious.
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CelesMyUserName posted...

I never thought I'd wish for more ExTha posts in a while, but it would be the best thing if he could take Corrik's place as an active poster here.

I already told ya'll I don't have the energy.

You guys could just not engage Corrik.

Please don't pretend like you really want conservative voices here anyway yo
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ExThaNemesis posted...

CelesMyUserName posted...

I never thought I'd wish for more ExTha posts in a while, but it would be the best thing if he could take Corrik's place as an active poster here.

I already told ya'll I don't have the energy.

You guys could just not engage Corrik.

Please don't pretend like you really want conservative voices here anyway yo

You alrdy answered why a few of them are so adamant to label and try to run me out.

Some are okay. Some are super far left to the point of being impossible to even have a discussion with.
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Corrik..

Are you suggesting we wouldn't care if it was an innocent person "on the other side" that was unjustly ran over instead?
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It would be just as condemnable I think

I probably wouldn't make a martyr out of him because his murder would most likely be properly condemned by all sides, and his group disavowed if he belonged to one.
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Corrik posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

I think a major part of "making a martyr" out of Heather Heyer is that the President equates her murder to the relatively minor (but still in some cases repulsive) injuries caused by counter-protestors.

Let me ask you this...

If a counter protester ran a car into the Unite to Right rally killing what was confirmed to be a not White Supremacist who was just marching about the statue, how would you act in comparison to Heather?

Seriously curious.

I'd be more angry at the driver than I am now, but less into promoting the victim because the cause they were supporting was dumb.
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Dark Young Link posted...

Corrik..

Are you suggesting we wouldn't care if it was an innocent person "on the other side" that was unjustly ran over instead?

I am asking how you would react. I do not feel it would be the same way as you reacted here with her. (You as in general).

And maybe you have legitimate reasons for it.

I do feel this urge to martyrdom is politicalky motivated some. Though I do acknowledge what she was counterprotesting against which is polarizing.

Not polarizing but somwthing that elicits strong feelings.
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Well maybe some of them do want conservative voices here because it gives them someone they can be vicious to as opposed to like, their grandparents at the holiday dinner table.
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MoogleKupo141 posted...

I'd be more angry at the driver than I am now, but less into promoting the victim because the cause they were supporting was dumb.

In the way Corrik laid this hypothetical out, I don't think that's fair.

I know in reality literally no one was there purely for the statue, but we're assuming that for the purposes of this hypothetical
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ExThaNemesis posted...

Well maybe some of them do want conservative voices here because it gives them someone they can be vicious to as opposed to like, their grandparents at the holiday dinner table.

all my grandparents are dead so I have no one in real life to rebel against
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Dark Young Link posted...

Corrik..

Are you suggesting we wouldn't care if it was an innocent person "on the other side" that was unjustly ran over instead?

I think it's pretty clear some would and some wouldn't
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Jakyl25 posted...

MoogleKupo141 posted...

I'd be more angry at the driver than I am now, but less into promoting the victim because the cause they were supporting was dumb.

In the way Corrik laid this hypothetical out, I don't think that's fair.

I know in reality literally no one was there purely for the statue, but we're assuming that for the purposes of this hypothetical

Really. Not a single person there could have been there for not white supremacy reasons? Not a single one???
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MoogleKupo141 posted...

all my grandparents are dead so I have no one in real life to rebel against

same. maybe that's why we're here together just so we have someone to unleash some angst on.

i always knew you were there for me, moogle.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SQCzhv1kfI
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Corrik posted...

Really. Not a single person there could have been there for not white supremacy reasons? Not a single one???

This is stupid.

If you showed up for NOT-WHITE-SUPREMACY and then saw all that WHITE SUPREMACY going on, your first instinct should've been "oh jeez better get the fuck away from all that."
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Jakyl25 posted...

MoogleKupo141 posted...

I'd be more angry at the driver than I am now, but less into promoting the victim because the cause they were supporting was dumb.

In the way Corrik laid this hypothetical out, I don't think that's fair.

I know in reality literally no one was there purely for the statue, but we're assuming that for the purposes of this hypothetical

it's like in the current situation,Heather died standing up specifically to the idealogy of the person who killed her, so she seems like a hero

in Corrik's example, the connection between killer and victim is more arbitrary, so I would probably think of them in the same way I do any other victim of terrorism
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Like once you stick around carrying torches with all the Nazis and White Supremacists, it doesn't matter what your goddamn intentions were.
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Corrik posted...

Really. Not a single person there could have been there for not white supremacy reasons? Not a single one???

I actually would think yeah if it was an actual neo nazi congregation.

Or was it just a statue memorial that got hijacked?
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ExThaNemesis posted...

MoogleKupo141 posted...

all my grandparents are dead so I have no one in real life to rebel against

same. maybe that's why we're here together just so we have someone to unleash some angst on.

i always knew you were there for me, moogle.

when the world burns down, we'll be the last ones here, stilll posting as the ground crumbles around us
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Guys I came here to protest a statue being torn down, what's with all the swastikas? Guess I'll stick around to find out. Oh hey, thanks for the torch.

Man, those people over there sure are mad at us. I wonder why.
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I feel like Trump's just going to keep digging, and the only way he doesn't get a vote of no confidence and impeached is if he either steps down himself (lol) or gives us a bigger enemy to worry about (war), and I'm pretty worried he'll absolutely see the latter as a very viable option.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

Corrik posted...

Really. Not a single person there could have been there for not white supremacy reasons? Not a single one???

This is stupid.

If you showed up for NOT-WHITE-SUPREMACY and then saw all that WHITE SUPREMACY going on, your first instinct should've been "oh jeez better get the fuck away from all that."

I think stupidity is assuming everyone is what you wanted them to be and knowing how everyone's logic works.

Then again, I read like 500 posts about how a scientist in a split decision would never run away from a falling ship and would know to run horizontal our of its path automatically in a situation of extreme fear in Prometheus. So maybe the internet just really does know everything for every situation.
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Corrik posted...

Really. Not a single person there could have been there for not white supremacy reasons? Not a single one???

Well like Wang said, some were there to LARP being a Nazi for the lulz.

But it wasn't marketed as a Lee Statue Removal protest. The park was chosen as a staging area for it because of the statue controversy, but again, it was entirely promoted as a rally to get all sorts of fringe white supremacist groups to meet up and come together and congeal.
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MoogleKupo141 posted...

ExThaNemesis posted...

MoogleKupo141 posted...

all my grandparents are dead so I have no one in real life to rebel against

same. maybe that's why we're here together just so we have someone to unleash some angst on.

i always knew you were there for me, moogle.

when the world burns down, we'll be the last ones here, stilll posting as the ground crumbles around us

As long as there are two people left in the world, someone is gonna want someone dead.
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Corrik posted...

Then again, I read like 500 posts about how a scientist in a split decision would never run away from a falling ship and would know to run horizontal our of its path automatically in a situation of extreme fear in Prometheus.

Oh come on I think anyone with reasonable spatial reasoning would have made the correct choice! Animals do!
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Corrik posted...

I think stupidity is assuming everyone is what you wanted them to be and knowing how everyone's logic works.

No, what I'm saying is that if you came there for pure intentions, saw all that WHITE SUPREMACY nonsense and chose to stick around anyway, it's your own goddamn fault for getting labeled that way.
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Also, anyone got a youtube video of this Prometheus scene. Having a hard time remembering what happened.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

Also, anyone got a youtube video of this Prometheus scene. Having a hard time remembering what happened.

It was like a gigantic scale version of the scene from Austin Powers where the dude gets run over by the steamroller.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

This is stupid.

If you showed up for NOT-WHITE-SUPREMACY and then saw all that WHITE SUPREMACY going on, your first instinct should've been "oh jeez better get the fuck away from all that."

This is why Corrik's hypothetical is dumb in this case.

Like obviously we're not going to go "Yay, someone got ran over because they're on the other team and not our team". But unless you're an innocent bystander who has nothing to do with any of this, literally why the fuck would you stick around once the literal Nazi flags started getting waved around?

Unless Corrik is trying to suggest someone would be so ignorant as to not know that that flag meant.

And not get the context out of any of the chants they were shouting all day....
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pjbasis posted...

Corrik posted...

Then again, I read like 500 posts about how a scientist in a split decision would never run away from a falling ship and would know to run horizontal our of its path automatically in a situation of extreme fear in Prometheus.

Oh come on I think anyone with reasonable spatial reasoning would have made the correct choice! Animals do!

I've seen many people literally just freeze in situations like that.

Most people are unable to think in situations like that. It comes down to pure instincts at that point.
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Dark Young Link posted...

ExThaNemesis posted...

This is stupid.

If you showed up for NOT-WHITE-SUPREMACY and then saw all that WHITE SUPREMACY going on, your first instinct should've been "oh jeez better get the fuck away from all that."

This is why Corrik's hypothetical is dumb in this case.

Like obviously we're not going to go "Yay, someone got ran over because they're on the other team and not our team". But unless you're an innocent bystander who has nothing to do with any of this, literally why the fuck would you stick around once the literal Nazi flags started getting waved around?

Unless Corrik is trying to suggest someone would be so ignorant as to not know that that flag meant.

And not get the context out of any of the chants they were shouting all day....

And not realize "Oh the featured speaker is the most famous white supremacist around right now."
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My only grandparent to survive this long is way more liberal than I am.

ExThaNemesis posted...

Guys I came here to protest a statue being torn down, what's with all the swastikas? Guess I'll stick around to find out. Oh hey, thanks for the torch.

Man, those people over there sure are mad at us. I wonder why.

I mean I've definitely made this point before. This is something that will get ignored by certain people when it's inconvenient to the overall point they want to make.
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pjbasis posted...

As long as there are two people left in the world, someone is gonna want someone dead.

Wish my parents would get that. Every time I try to explain, they call me a "crazed gunman".
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I mean there's a reason it was such a fight to even get this event permitted in the first place

http://www.dailywire.com/sites/default/files/unite_the_right.jpg

And it had nothing to do with Robert E Lee
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Corrik posted...

pjbasis posted...

Corrik posted...

Then again, I read like 500 posts about how a scientist in a split decision would never run away from a falling ship and would know to run horizontal our of its path automatically in a situation of extreme fear in Prometheus.

Oh come on I think anyone with reasonable spatial reasoning would have made the correct choice! Animals do!

I've seen many people literally just freeze in situations like that.

Most people are unable to think in situations like that. It comes down to pure instincts at that point.

How many people have you seen get crushed to death!?

But really from another perspective as a storyteller you shouldn't use scenarios that, while possible, might also be unlikely to happen. You shouldn't ever let your audience think "but she could have just done that!" Of course some people will never be satisfied but this wasn't a scenario like that. It was a lazy way to off a villain.
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Corrik posted...

I've seen many people literally just freeze in situations like that.

why have you witnessed so many situations like this
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Corrik is Jigsaw confirmed.
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https://youtu.be/-BWnTW4rL0U?t=3m25s

Best I could do Extha.
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idk I'm pretty sure I'd have gone the right way in that Prometheus situation now that I think about it.
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This is why in some ways I'm better at mafia when I try than you Corrik.

You were getting Robert Lee lynched real fast but I pulled up some fancy quotes and made a quick but solid case and got those unvotes
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