Poll of the Day > Transgender kindergarten lesson sparks outcry in California

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ROCKLIN, Calif. (CNN) -- Parents and school board members listened on Monday to hours of passionate testimony, all focused on one key question: What is and isn't an appropriate lesson in a kindergarten classroom?

The lesson on what it means to be transgender happened after a kindergarten student, born a boy, was reintroduced to her class as transgender girl in June.

Her teacher read the class two books about being transgender without parents or administrators being notified.

"The school spent a lot of time since these concerns were raised meeting with parents," said Elizabeth Ashford, Rocklin Academy Gateway spokesperson.

"They didn't understand why parents weren't notified beforehand," Chelsea McQuistan said.

"Parents should be notified when this controversial issues arise," one man said at the meeting.

"This teaching left many children confused, frightened and questioning their own gender," a woman said

Since then, there's been a wave of backlash against the school by some parents.

However, some parents expressed support for the teacher's decision.

Ankur Dhawan's daughter was in the classroom for that lesson, and he is grateful to the teacher for teaching that lesson.

"The honest answer is I would not have had the courage to have this conversation with my daughters had this not been brought up at school, so from that perspective, it's been an important lesson," Dhawan said.

The transgender community as a whole supported the teacher.

"It's not controversial amongst the LGBT community to be who you are. It is controversial, however, to deny another's human identity and their dignity," one man said.

"I'm glad there are people coming out to support the school, the family, the child," said Pam Douglas, one of many who supported the transgender lesson.

She said doing otherwise is simply intolerant.

""At the crux of it it's sad, it's bigotry. Plain and simple, it's bigotry," Douglas siad.

The school board is considering five recommendations, among them: making it mandatory to notify parents about "controversial" topics beforehand, continuing to allow teachers to introduce age-appropriate books outside the curriculum and not letting parents "opt their kids out" of lessons they find inappropriate.

http://www.wsmv.com/story/36405861/transgender-kindergarten-lesson-sparks-outcry-in-california

Metro2 posted...

Should little kids learn about what transgender is?

Probably so then they can understand it more. The same can be said for sexuality and whatnot. Sure kids might not use this information but it's still important to learn the world is full of different types of people.
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This topic is going to be a total shit show

I can't wait
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It's not so much that they shouldn't be taught what it is, but that they shouldn't be told certain viewpoints of controversial topics are "correct" and other view points "incorrect".
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TigerTycoon posted...

but that they shouldn't be told certain viewpoints of controversial topics are "correct" and other view points "incorrect".

I mean, I'm fine with saying that "be nice to people" is correct, and alternatives are incorrect. The subtleties that contribute to the controversy surrounding trans people can be taught in later grades, when kids are more likely to understand them. For the time being, all they really need to know is that Billy's Britney now, and that they should respect and accept that, and that's really not a controversial concept (or shouldn't be, anyway).
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adjl posted...

I mean, I'm fine with saying that "be nice to people" is correct, and alternatives are incorrect.

Nobody is suggesting you should be an ass to people who you disagree with. You can in fact get along with people who don't share all the same views as you. That is in fact probably the better lesson to be teaching, that tribalism is bad and you shouldn't be an ass to people because they are different, in a different group, or have different views.

adjl posted...

For the time being, all they really need to know is that Billy's Britney now, and that they should respect and accept that, and that's really not a controversial concept (or shouldn't be, anyway).

This is exactly it though, what is "obviously not controversial" for some people is not "obviously not controversial" for other people. Telling the kids they should accept whatever gender people choose to be (with the alternative being told they are wrong and are either punished or shamed for that) is already pushing acceptance of one idea over the other.

It's like the religion in school thing, for religions people, "god is obviously real" and there is nothing wrong with teaching kids that, where as for non religious people, they don't want their kids being taught that "god is obviously real" or that they should base any of their beliefs around that. And you know what, atheist and religious people can get along without being asses to each other.
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Right, i cant see how this is any different than if a teacher was going to bring out a book about Islam religion and talk to the class about that.

If they give facts about transgender objectively then i couldnt care less. But obviously they wont, no one ever does about these sort of things no matter what side your on. While i dont really care about this topic being introduced to children i do agree that such stuff should be notified to the parents beforehand.

Is the book accurate?

I mean, is there a "girl brain" involved? How do we know it was personal choice or a genetic disposition? Maybe some people just like to play dress up and are tired of their parents telling them that they're now transgender.
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The teacher didn't properly explain the concept as a result children cried and got scared. This is why you wait til later grades

It's just going to create questions where there don't need to be any. Let parents handle it if it comes up on its own. The amount of suicidal trans people requires further study before we go down our "barbershop bloodlettings are the pinnacle of medical science" path with all this stuff.
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How about we concentrate on reading and writing. Or maybe even a little math? You know things that can actually help little kids latter in life. The transformer topics can come latter on.
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Sensual_T_Rex posted...

How about we concentrate on reading and writing. Or maybe even a little math? You know things that can actually help little kids latter in life. The transformer topics can come latter on.

The far-left feels obligated to out-progressive each other in a sick competition with being the one ruining society as the prize.
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Link to the curriculum materials? Maybe an explanation meant for five-year-olds could make me finally understand the concept of gender.
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No, they should not. It's too young an age to adequately explain the concept and can potentially result in an even greater incidence of identity issues.
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TigerTycoon posted...

Telling the kids they should accept whatever gender people choose to be (with the alternative being told they are wrong and are either punished or shamed for that) is already pushing acceptance of one idea over the other.

Here's the thing, though: This isn't an idea. This isn't simply something people think or believe. It's who they are, and accepting people for who they are is absolutely an idea that should be pushed over any alternative.

TigerTycoon posted...

It's like the religion in school thing, for religions people, "god is obviously real" and there is nothing wrong with teaching kids that, where as for non religious people, they don't want their kids being taught that "god is obviously real" or that they should base any of their beliefs around that. And you know what, atheist and religious people can get along without being asses to each other.

It's quite different from that. "Billy is a Christian" is an objective fact. That is something teachers absolutely can teach their students as being unarguably true, because that's who Billy is, and has chosen to be. Teaching their students to accept and respect that isn't controversial. Teaching their students to be a Christian like Billy would be, but that's not analogous. The subtleties of Billy/Britney's gender identity aren't something kindergarten students need to learn, because Gender Dysphoria and the associated medical and social considerations are more complicated than they can really be taught. ''Billy wants you to call her Britney now," however, can, and that's all that matters here, and teaching kids to respect and accept people the way they are is absolutely and unambiguously a good thing.

For that matter, respecting that Billy wants you to call her Britney is all that matters at any age. You can have all the opinions you want on how gender dysphoria is treated, what policies should be implemented regarding bathrooms, or anything else conceptual. At the end of the day, though, the only power you actually have is the power to make the individual you're talking to feel comfortable, and doing that entails respecting and accepting the identity they present you with, regardless of whether or not you agree with all of the beliefs and feelings that have gone into constructing that identity. That's all that matters, that's something everyone should be doing, and I don't think calling that uncontroversial is particularly unreasonable. I also think that that definitely is something that should be taught to kindergarteners.
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If kindergarten topics revolve around identity, I would hate to be the teacher in charge of sex ed.
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RedPixel posted...

If kindergarten topics revolve around identity, I would hate to be the teacher in charge of sex ed.

my kindergarten had sex ed

But it was things like "if you feel uncomfortable with how someone is treating you tell a trusted adult. If the problem is in your family you can tell a teacher" and "it's not ok for anyone to touch you if you don't want it"

Which kids in kindergarten absolutely should get
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Sensual_T_Rex posted...

How about we concentrate on reading and writing. Or maybe even a little math? You know things that can actually help little kids latter in life. The transformer topics can come latter on.

Metro2 posted...

Her teacher read the class two books

Well, there's the reading part for you. In addition to that, learning how to successfully interact with people is a much, MUCH more valuable skill than reading or writing will ever be, and "respect people even if they seem weird" is an essential part of that. That's definitely worth teaching in kindergarten.

That, and I'd be surprised if this little lesson took more than an hour, unless the kids had lots of questions (in which case, asking question to help understand a confusing topic is another vital skill that should be taught early). There's plenty of other time for math.
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It's who they are, and accepting people for who they are is absolutely an idea that should be pushed over any alternative.

Okay, I'll bite.

Who I am is someone that absolutely rejects the idea of accepting people uncritically and without making judgments based on my own experiences and values. I don't accept people for who they are, but for the case they've made for that acceptance.

And I haven't seen you be very accepting of that. So I find what you're saying here very interesting, because it's not a lie, strictly speaking. You say the idea damn well should be pushed over any alternatives, and that's what you're doing. Not, for YOU of course, but for everyone else yeah.
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Kungfu Kenobi posted...

Who I am is someone that absolutely rejects the idea of accepting people uncritically and without making judgments based on my own experiences and values. I don't accept people for who they are, but for the case they've made for that acceptance.

And I haven't seen you be very accepting of that.

I do accept that. What I don't necessarily accept is the behaviour that can arise from such an identity. You can be whoever you want to be. You cannot, however, do whatever you want to do. That's a very important distinction, and you don't have to accept everything a person does to accept and respect who they are. Actions have consequences; just make sure you're making a clear distinction between acting and merely existing.
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adjl posted...

and that they should respect and accept that

That right there is where the problem lies. You're already pushing for your viewpoint to be forced on kids. Some people don't believe that transgenders should even be acknowledged as the gender they transitioned to, and while I don't agree with that, I also can't get behind the idea of schools pushing kids to "respect and accept that".

Cue the clip from that South Park episode with Mr. Garrison explaining the difference between acceptance and tolerance.

The fact of the matter is, transgenderism is so misunderstood medically that it shouldn't be taught. Look at all the fallout from the brontosaurus.
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adjl posted...

Kungfu Kenobi posted...

Who I am is someone that absolutely rejects the idea of accepting people uncritically and without making judgments based on my own experiences and values. I don't accept people for who they are, but for the case they've made for that acceptance.

And I haven't seen you be very accepting of that.

I do accept that. What I don't necessarily accept is the behaviour that can arise from such an identity. You can be whoever you want to be. You cannot, however, do whatever you want to do. That's a very important distinction, and you don't have to accept everything a person does to accept and respect who they are. Actions have consequences; just make sure you're making a clear distinction between acting and merely existing.

This exact line of thinking has been used to tell queers to get back in the closet. This exact line of thinking is behind every reactionary internet post about some movie or video game "shoving "the gay" in everyone's faces" when there's even a hint of something non-cis/het. This is a classic, "I'm all for [blank], but..." where they're fine with it, until it exists in some space they have to inhabit.


Furthermore you can't "accept that" without accepting the real world output of those thought processes, for that behavior is nothing but a reflection of who I am. Not unless we're talking about the most neutral and academic meaning of the word. I don't really think we're on the same page if there's some version of acceptance you're using where the following makes sense, "I accept you as a person, but I'm disgusted by everything you think and do and will take steps to change both or at least get as far from it as I can." (and I'm not saying you are saying this, just making a point).
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That's far too young, ok?

Currant_Kaiser posted...

You're already pushing for your viewpoint to be forced on kids.

Yes. Absolutely. People should respect and accept other people, and I will push that viewpoint onto kids, adults, and everyone in between.

Currant_Kaiser posted...

Some people don't believe that transgenders should even be acknowledged as the gender they transitioned to

And they're not being respectful or accepting. Whatever your beliefs, the fact of the matter is that there's a person right in front of you who's going to feel a whole lot more comfortable if you accept the identity they've adopted than if you don't, and whose identity can be accepted without any sort of negative consequence for you. As such, the decent thing to do is to accept them, and I will absolutely criticize anyone that says otherwise.

Is transitioning the gold standard for treating gender dysphoria? I don't know. Nobody knows yet, because science is slow. But until science figures it out, all laypeople can do is accept the current best known option. Anything else just makes everyone involved miserable, and keeps science from doing its job.
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Can people stop being outraged about every fucking thing
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SmokeMassTree2 posted...

That's far too young, ok?

That is a very, very difficult one.

-There are some people for whom transition is absolutely, positively, the only viable option.
-Early transition has the best outcomes.
-Kids are almost always far too inexperienced to make the sort of life choices required of a transition
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Kungfu Kenobi posted...

Furthermore you can't "accept that" without accepting the real world output of those thought processes, for that behavior is nothing but a reflection of who I am. Not unless we're talking about the most neutral and academic meaning of the word. I don't really think we're on the same page if there's some version of acceptance you're using where the following makes sense, "I accept you as a person, but I'm disgusted by everything you think and do and will take steps to change both or at least get as far from it as I can." (and I'm not saying you are saying this, just making a point).

They are intractably linked in many cases, but I don't see that as a problem. Accept who somebody is, unless who they are results in problematic behaviour. Keep the focus on that action, though. Actions may be a reflection of identity, and changing behaviour may in turn change the underlying identity, but the actions are the important part, so don't stop accepting an identity before the person does anything bad with it.
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They should but kindergarten is too early. I don't know when I became aware of that term and what it means but I would have easily been in my late teens-the timing isn't as important as teaching general acceptance and lack of racism/sexism so when new ideas/terms are introduced they're going to handle it well and just accept it part of the landscape.
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Kungfu Kenobi posted...

SmokeMassTree2 posted...

That's far too young, ok?

That is a very, very difficult one.

-There are some people for whom transition is absolutely, positively, the only viable option.
-Early transition has the best outcomes.
-Kids are almost always far too inexperienced to make the sort of life choices required of a transition

At 5 or 6?

That's straight up child abuse if you allow them to transition.

SmokeMassTree2 posted...

At 5 or 6?

Did you know that you were a boy when you were 5?
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Yes

I have eyes

SmokeMassTree2 posted...

Kungfu Kenobi posted...

SmokeMassTree2 posted...

That's far too young, ok?

That is a very, very difficult one.

-There are some people for whom transition is absolutely, positively, the only viable option.
-Early transition has the best outcomes.
-Kids are almost always far too inexperienced to make the sort of life choices required of a transition

At 5 or 6?

That's straight up child abuse if you allow them to transition.

Yeah, I really have to agree with you this time, guy.
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If you can't even buy a pack of cigarettes, much less a beer, you shouldn't be able to consent to elective surgery.

I'm cool with an adult doing whatever they want to their bodies, but fuck man get out of high school first.

A little kid wouldn't even know what transgender is.
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SmokeMassTree2 posted...

Yes

I have eyes

There's a lot more to it than that, and a considerable percentage of transgender adults also report knowing that they weren't the right gender when they were like 5. Unlike sexual preference, gender identity isn't something that waits until puberty to really show up. It's usually pretty well established by about 4, which means that any dysphoric conflict will also start to show up then.

SmokeMassTree2 posted...

If you can't even buy a pack of cigarettes, much less a beer, you shouldn't be able to consent to elective surgery.

Even when the transitioning process starts young, surgery typically doesn't happen until much, much later (heck, even for adults, surgery is typically after a couple years of living as the target gender, despite the rather widespread misconception of somebody randomly waking up and saying "golly, I think I'll have my willy chopped off today and get some boobs!"). Puberty gets blocked when the time comes, but before that it's mostly just a name change and some new clothes, during which time they can see if they feel more comfortable that way. When you start that young, nothing permanent happens for several years, which is one of the reasons it's so much better to start young.

Now, that's not to say there aren't ethical concerns. That's true of ANY medical treatment for minors, and especially so when it's a mental issue and diagnosis is therefore much more reliant on the patient's self-reports than on empirical observations. There isn't a clear answer here, which means that the people saying "definitely go ahead!" are wrong, and so are the people saying "no never do that." This is an issue that's going to evolve as child psychology evolves, and in the mean time there are going to be children who end up getting seriously hurt by science's shortcomings. There are also going to be children who end up being immeasurably helped, who would have been seriously hurt by not doing anything. That's just the nature of medicine, as callous as that sounds, so while it's important to keep up pressure for scientists and doctors to make good ethical choices, it's also important to let science do what it needs to do.
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Yeah I'm not going to read that, but I disagree, ok?

You really can't discuss ethics without a paragraph or two. ****'s complicated, yo.
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The biggest problem stems from mental illness, as I say in every topic about this. The correlation between suicide and transgenderism isn't worthy of dismissal, especially when the operation tends to increase it. I'm not disputing that male and female brains are different, for the record, or that they can be mixed up.
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There's also a correlation between suicide rates and how well the people around a person with gender dysphoria accept their transition. Namely, rates get cut in half for people that are well-supported and accepted, which is ****ing HUGE when the rate's already in the high 30's. This is why I stress acceptance. Is transitioning the best option? Maybe. Maybe not. But that's the job of scientists to figure out, and until then, everyone else needs to stop taking their doubts out on the vulnerable people suffering from the disorder and just accept them as they are. Laypeople being anti-trans just breeds aggressively pro-trans laypeople to defend against that offense, when what actually needs to happen is for all laypeople to **** off and let science do its job.
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I'm cool with adults doing it

Just not children

I'm starting to pick up on the reality that adjl's strategy is to just hit people with lengthy post after lengthy post, arguing in circles so that they lose interest and disengage.

adjl is like Bizarro Zeus.

I'm all for encouraging acceptance but if it's being taught this way:

"I have a girl brain but a boy body"

Then it's really stupid. Wait until they're older and can understand sexuality in the first place instead of giving them simplistic dumb fables that are probably just gonna confuse them and make them question their own identity.

I mean, c'mon, a girl brain? Wtf is a girl brain

Currant_Kaiser posted...

I'm starting to pick up on the reality that adjl's strategy is to just hit people with lengthy post after lengthy post, arguing in circles so that they lose interest and disengage.

That's pretty much every Internet argument ever. Nobody's ever convinced of anything, it just continues until one or more parties get bored and walk away.
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adjl posted...

Currant_Kaiser posted...

I'm starting to pick up on the reality that adjl's strategy is to just hit people with lengthy post after lengthy post, arguing in circles so that they lose interest and disengage.

That's pretty much every Internet argument ever. Nobody's ever convinced of anything, it just continues until one or more parties get bored and walk away.

No, but you're willing to put an unusually large amount of time and effort into your arguments. I can only think of one other poster here who bothers with that.

Currant_Kaiser posted...

other poster here who bothers with that

Zeus?
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EclairReturns posted...

Currant_Kaiser posted...

other poster here who bothers with that

Zeus?

Currant_Kaiser posted...

adjl is like Bizarro Zeus.

Yup. I'm starting to get into this whole adjl is Bizarro Zeus thing, actually. They both have the same tactic of attacking with walls of texts whilst arguing in circles. Both have four-letter names. They tend to be at opposite sides of political issues. A is the first letter of the alphabet, Z is the last.

THEY'RE PERFECT RIVALS

Most liken me to PO, actually. Zeus is relatively new, and is a much more aggressive devil's advocate than me (that, or he just somehow has contrary opinions on everything, but I think devil's advocate is more likely).
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adjl posted...

Most liken me to PO, actually. Zeus is relatively new, and is a much more aggressive devil's advocate than me (that, or he just somehow has contrary opinions on everything, but I think devil's advocate is more likely).

I dunno who PO is, but you sound so much like Zeus right now it hurts.

Screw Zeus and Erik, I ship Zeus and adjl.

Currant_Kaiser posted...

I dunno who PO is

And just like that, I've become an old PotDer.
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