Board 8 > Star Wars: The Last Jedi spoiler thread 2

(+) Yeah! (+)

LeonhartFour posted...

Some people wanted Rey to be a Kenobi, too, but yeah, there was definitely some rage about that.

This is the one that bugs me the most. New characters don't NEED to be connected to old ones. Rey being a strong force user doesn't mean she needs to be a Skywalker or a Kenobi or anyone really. She can just be...a strong force user. It is in fact far more interesting that she's a nobody with terrible parents who abandoned her, who then managed to survive anyway and become a major player in the galaxy. Not everything needs to be about prophecy and destiny and crap like that.
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Harrison Ford said...

Ive been arguing for Han Solo to die for about 30 years, not because I was tired of him or because hes boring, but his sacrifice for the other characters would lend gravitas and emotional weight.

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I really enjoyed Rey and Snoke being nothing but I feel like Rian Johnson took a "SUCK IT FANS" approach with the reveals. Snoke could still be something but the reveal will probs be in a comic or book or w/e

I don't like the delivery and I think the movie tried to hard to be full of twists that weren't necessary and didn't work or had bad delivery. One or two big twists would have been fine.

Again I am going to put a special shoutout here to Vice Admiral Hoodoo and harp on the fact that they "HEY I HAD A PLAN AND IT'S GREAT TAKE THAT THE PATRIARCHY" was really really poorly done and just made her look like an idiot. I actually got mad when they gave her a sendoff scene because she's such a worthless, terribly written character that hurt the quality of what could have been a great movie.
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There's rage about every little thing. It all boils down to people not liking change. There was absolutely no way to please everyone because the entire fanbase is already so split. There are people that love the prequels and say they're way better than the OT.

I'm just saying, try not to take the general fanbase too seriously. Remember too that there's still one more movie, people didn't much like how ESB left the series when it first came out. Looking back on it now though, it's the best movie. I'm thinking the new movie will be a similar situation. Once the trilogy is all done and we've had time to digest it all, I think TLJ will generally be viewed as a great movie.
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LeonhartFour posted...

we're not supposed to empathize with Kylo hating Luke, Han, or Leia

Yes we are. At the least it needs to be believable why he hates them. There needs to be good reason.
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wow I haven't seen a thread move this fast since contest season, brings back good memories

Give me that "Best. Star Wars. Game. Ever." contest, Bacon
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Holdo did basically everything right
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foolm0r0n posted...

At the least it needs to be believable why he hates them. There needs to be good reason.

They gave you one for Luke with him misconstruing his intentions and thinking he came there to kill him because he was afraid of him, but I still don't really sympathize with him at all.
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FFDragon posted...

Corrik posted...

No one in the world expected them to kill Han Solo the literal best thing in the Star Wars Universe.

maybe if you've never seen a harrison ford interview ever

I go in blind to every star wars film.
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Frankly I love it to pieces just for all of the debate it's raised about Kylo as a character. And I couldn't have given less of a fuck about Kylo in TFA, but with the stuff they did here he's suddenly pretty deep
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LeonhartFour posted...

Some people wanted Rey to be a Kenobi, too, but yeah, there was definitely some rage about that.

Yeah, but the general feeling is that people wanted their version of the story confirmed, and when it doesn't go that way while still producing a good film, they lose their minds. Like they can't accept the idea that a good movie can still be made without conforming to preconceived notions of how the story should progress.

It's one thing for legit criticism to come out but it generally is drowning in nonsense.
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Hi Zen good to see that you are alive!

We aren't supposed to empathize with Kylo and he doesn't hate Han and crew, nor were the audiences meant to hate them. All of that is bonkers.
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Kylo Ren is basically Goro Akechi when you think about it
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I rather enjoy that Rian Johnson directed both Last Jedi and Breaking Bad's Ozymandias. he seems to have a thing for crushing people's dreams.
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Corrik posted...

I go in blind to every star wars film.

like I said, ever

he's been saying it since the 80s
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GANON1025 posted...

Kylo Ren is basically Goro Akechi when you think about it

yeah kinda
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Kylo Ren is the personification of people who liked the prequel trilogy and is giving shit to people who love only the OT.

Why do you think he keeps pushing for letting the past die, and he's gradually wiping out all your favorite OT characters?
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chewie kills kylo, calling it
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yooo my man KP, you and Leon are the only two people I still have highlighted

I'm happy you're still alive too, I also think you have good opinions on this star wars feature film

I'll be around next contest season if that ever happens

We'll catch up someday, hit me up on Facebook if you still got one

Also I can't post in this thread without an obligatory "Vice Admiral Holdo is a worse character than Dexter Jettster"
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TheRock1525 posted...

Kylo Ren is the personification of people who liked the prequel trilogy and is giving shit to people who love only the OT.

That's what I initially loved about Kylo Ren as well. In TFA he was just a kid that wanted to be like his hero, but he was incompetent and threw temper tantrums.

He was literally what a typical emo Star Wars fan is like and I think it's hilariously appropriate
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LeonhartFour posted...

They gave you one for Luke with him misconstruing his intentions and thinking he came there to kill him because he was afraid of him, but I still don't really sympathize with him at all.

Not sympathize obviously. Just empathize so you know where he's coming from.

It wouldn't make for a good character if Han was the coolest best dad ever and his son just decided to be evil one day because he's just so evil and his super cool dad tried everything to stop him but the evil was too strong.
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BTW this is supposedly what Rian Johnson said about Snoke's lack of background:

It would have stopped any of these scenes dead cold if he had stopped and given a 30-second speech about how hes Darth PlagueisIt doesnt matter to Rey. If he had done that, Rey would have blinked and said, Who? And the scene would have gone on"

When I was working on the character of Kylo, I came to a place where I thought the most interesting thing would be to knock the shaky foundation out from under him at the beginning of this movieBy the end of this film, hes gone from being a wannabe Vader to someone who is standing on his own feet as a complex villain taking the reins."

But then the question is: What place would Snoke have at the end of that?That made me realize the most interesting thing would be to eliminate that dynamic between the emperor and pupil, so that all bets are off going into the next one. That also led to the possibility of this dramatic turn in the middle, which could also be a really powerful connection point between Kylo and Rey.

He's not wrong. Plagueis is used in a one-off moment RotS and his overall important to the story is pretty minimal in the entirety of the first 6 movies.

But I don't think it makes a lot of sense to leave the character a completely blank canvas.
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i mean

isn't that like typical teenage angst

space angst ren
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Am I the only one who thought there was something off about Laura Dern's acting in this? I'm not even bothered by what Holdo did, but her character just felt kind of fake and artificial for some reason, and I never bought into her despite buying into every other character in the entire movie, including the new ones. (I like Rose just fine, I just think her and Finn's part of the movie felt extraneous.)

I love how much Holdo triggers nerds. So simple yet effective.
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I don't have a Facebook for various reasons (kind of glad I got out of that before the site started selling your information off) but we definitely need to catch up sometime regardless! It's been a while.

Honestly Snoke bugged me in TFA regardless. He was just a less cool version of The Emperor in a movie that was way too derivative in general. Should've been handled better from the beginning (him dying to Kylo is a good plot point in theory though, execution is debatable).
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I feel like getting mad at Holdo is like getting mad at Mon Mothma or Ackbar. It's like, they're tertiary characters
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ZenOfThunder posted...

We'll catch up someday, hit me up on Facebook if you still got one

can confirm that Zen is a great Facebook follow
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Holdo woulda been a lot better if she had a scene in TFA, like just a little something to establish her before giving her a much bigger role here. The way she interacted with Leia left me a bit confused because we had never seen this character before and just earlier I thought she was a traitor.

Of course her light speed kamikaze was so fucking cool that I instantly forgave my qualms with her character. I think I'll like her more on my next viewing.
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foolm0r0n posted...

I love how much Holdo triggers nerds. So simple yet effective.

Yeah I'm pretty triggered I guess if that's the word you used, and I worked at a comic shop for 6 years so I guess I'm a nerd

I also see people adamantly defending her but nobody really gives any good reasoning. I also don't think Rian Johnson put her in there to "trigger nerds" I think that just kind of happened through bad storytelling. She could have been fine if she had just been open about her plans.

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Also, on the Snoke thing, Rian Johnson is right that focusing on her being some other character from the prequels or even OT wouldn't have mattered at all.

Does anyone remember how in Star Trek Into Darkness Benedict Cumberbatch dramatically revealed I AM KHAN and there was like a dramatic sting and they showed Chris Pine and Zachary Quinto just making confused faces and everyone made fun of that terrible moment because it means nothing in the context of the new film universe

It would have been a lot like that and honestly general audiences would have cared just as little as Rey would have
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I do think her little plotline could have been done better, there was definitely something a bit "off" with it.
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I think lightspeed kamikaze will be the defining aesthetic of the new trilogy
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GANON1025 posted...

I feel like getting mad at Holdo is like getting mad at Mon Mothma or Ackbar. It's like, they're tertiary characters

Holdo is way more important to the plot than Mon Mothma or Ackbar.

Ackbar and Mothma didn't get some dramatic heart-to-heart scene with Leia followed by dramatic sacrifice scenes that I guess we were supposed to care about

The lightspeed kamikaze looked great, it's a shame that people now associate it with Holdo and think that it somehow redeems bad writing

If Holdo had been honest:

Holdo: "Hey, we're going to run towards this planet, then when we run out of fuel, we're going to eject some pods, and they'll be too small to be picked up by First Order radar. Then we will get to that planet which has an old base and we'll lay low for a bit and set up shop and use the enhanced communications to reach other rebels to rebuild."

This is a GOOD PLAN. Poe Dameron thinks this is a good plan. IT IS. It would have taken 2 seconds to tell the crew.

Instead she doesn't tell anyone at all, not even Poe's friend on the bridge who ended up mutinying with him. Actually, SEVERAL people mutinied because Holdo wouldn't have a two second conversation.

So Poe sends his friends out to go find a master codebreaker (?) to get into the ship to find the magic lightspeed tracker (??) and disable it. They end up finding Benecio Del Toro who is a turncoat and then gives away Holdo's plan to have the escape pods fly under the radar, thus costing hundreds of lives as well as the Rebel base and I guess also Luke's life if you think about it. If she had been honest then he wouldn't have been there.

She had no reason to be quiet about the plan. Maybe at first, I'll give you that, but when Poe comes storming onto the bridge yelling, why didn't she tell him there? When he said "you're filling up these pods so we can get in them and die" why wouldn't she just say "no we'll fly under the radar and get to this salt planet"

Again, it's just general incompetence. How did she make it to Vice Admiral? By wearing nice clothes and jewelry on the bridge? Transparency is key in leadership, especially in times of turmoil.

Somehow people thinking she had a cool death redeems this tho, and I guess the "girl power" thing that I see but I don't know if that's people shitposting or if people actually believe she is some kind of new feminist icon in star wars because she was paling around with Leia and put that flyboy Poe in his place
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Holdo and Leia are very good friends, ok
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Yes therefore Holdo is my new fave character

The Vice Admiral is dead, long live the Vice Admiral
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I came out of the movie pretty disappointed. I mean, it was a good movie, but I expected so much more than this after 2 years. So many questions left unanswered. I might need a second viewing but I genuinely left the theater disappointed.

I loved the Ren and Rey team up though. Highlight of the movie, fur sure.
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can anyone actually clear up for me how Benecio Del Toro knew Holdo's plan to use the escape pods to fly under the radar

Like who told him that

Did Finn know? Did Rose know? When did Poe tell them? He didn't know until after he got knocked out and woke up and by then Finn and Rose were captured
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I think Poe and Finn were discussing it over the communicators right before they were captured.
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AquaArcane posted...

Holdo woulda been a lot better if she had a scene in TFA, like just a little something to establish her before giving her a much bigger role here. The way she interacted with Leia left me a bit confused because we had never seen this character before and just earlier I thought she was a traitor.

Of course her light speed kamikaze was so fucking cool that I instantly forgave my qualms with her character. I think I'll like her more on my next viewing.

For me she was basically my instant favorite character upon her introduction for reasons I can't explain, and then when they made it look like she might be bad I was like DON'T YOU FUCKING DO THIS TO ME STAR WARS and then when she turned out to be Leia's bestie I was like *whew*
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My first thought after every reveal or "twist" that was thrown at me was that the director KNEW what everyone was expecting but decided to throw in a HAHAHA YOU THOUGHT just to do something different. And that bugs me because it throws out alot of the mystery that TFA set up.

How the hell do we not get any mention of the Knights of Ren other than Kylo deciding to not kill off a few of the kids at the temple? Why didn't we get a more detailed view of what happened that night? Was Snoke in contact with Kylo before those events? How did he meet Kylo? Who the fuck is Snoke?! How the hell didn't he sense a lightsaber moving right next to him if he is so powerful he can force choke someone from a hologram? Alot of this stuff doesn't really make sense and just seems like a cheap shot at shock value and not give us a liitle explanation to a lot of stuff that we've seen in TFA. These movies don't seem connected at all.

I was expecting Luke to take out those AT-STs and I was so hoping he was, but everything just did not turn out how I expected or wanted them to. That should be a good thing though, I don't want a movie to be to predictable but it just seems... weird and off. Why did Rose save Fin? Because of love, I laughed out loud when he kissed him and Fin just looked at her with confusion. I don't know why the First Order didn't just blast them to death. Instead they just watched them... the First Order is a joke.
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I think I get the hate now

People aren't mad that they took the toys from the shelf and played with them - that was TFA. This movie was more like throwing the toys into a pile and lighting it on fire to watch the fantastic crackles and pops as they all melt down. This movie is actively hostile towards the past, not just changing it (see: https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/a-list-of-some-of-the-times-the-last-jedi-told-the-olde-1821396631). You can imagine why people would get mad about that.

I think that's awesome though, it provides a nice and unique new perspective. And it's just a movie, not plastic toys... the old stuff will always be there in pristine condition. So why not have some explosive fun with the material?

The theme of actively eliminating the past that is holding you back is by far the best thing about the movie, so this shouldn't be a complaint. It just means you didn't understand the movie, which I guess is clear when people complain about Rey's non-parents and Snoke dying midway and how it sucked that everyone kept failing. I guess the movie repeating the theme 4 times and then having Yoda come out to explicitly lecture you about the theme wasn't enough for some people.
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Why would Snoke notice a lightsaber shuffling around next to him? He was quite busy staring at a premonition of Two Seconds Hence while evilly gloating
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SwiftyDC posted...

How the hell didn't he sense a lightsaber moving right next to him if he is so powerful he can force choke someone from a hologram?

This is officially the dumbest thing in the movie btw. I watched Looper in preparation for this movie and this is 100% Rian Johnson bullshit.

That scene was otherwise amazing so I really wish he came up with something better for the actual Snoke death...
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I thought it made perfect sense. He's just as arrogant as any other dark side character and that ultimately leads to his demise.
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a fun thing I wanna post here:

I watched a cam today, and it was filmed somewhere in Mexico. It was in English other than the title crawl. When Rose saved Finn and gave her speech about love or w/e and then immediately after the First Order punched through the giant door, a lady in the audience screamed "AAAAGH LA IDIOTA" really loudly

nice to know bad writing transcends culture and language
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foolm0r0n posted...

I think I get the hate now

People aren't mad that they took the toys from the shelf and played with them - that was TFA. This movie was more like throwing the toys into a pile and lighting it on fire to watch the fantastic crackles and pops as they all melt down. This movie is actively hostile towards the past, not just changing it (see: https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/a-list-of-some-of-the-times-the-last-jedi-told-the-olde-1821396631). You can imagine why people would get mad about that.

I think that's awesome though, it provides a nice and unique new perspective. And it's just a movie, not plastic toys... the old stuff will always be there in pristine condition. So why not have some explosive fun with the material?

The theme of actively eliminating the past that is holding you back is by far the best thing about the movie, so this shouldn't be a complaint. It just means you didn't understand the movie, which I guess is clear when people complain about Rey's non-parents and Snoke dying midway and how it sucked that everyone kept failing. I guess the movie repeating the theme 4 times and then having Yoda come out to explicitly lecture you about the theme wasn't enough for some people.

Agree with all this
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ZenOfThunder posted...

a fun thing I wanna post here:

I watched a cam today, and it was filmed somewhere in Mexico. It was in English other than the title crawl. When Rose saved Finn and gave her speech about love or w/e and then immediately after the First Order punched through the giant door, a lady in the audience screamed "AAAAGH LA IDIOTA" really loudly

nice to know bad writing transcends culture and language

This is great.
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AquaArcane posted...

I thought it made perfect sense. He's just as arrogant as any other dark side character and that ultimately leads to his demise.

Totally makes sense because Kylo Ren didn't realize that Luke didn't age since the last time he saw him or that he was weilding the lightsaber he helped destroy just a few scenes earlier. Fuck, I'm really upset about this movie. I walked out talking to my friend like it was dope but I have so many issues with it after thinking about it.

Captain Phasma is the new Boba Fett but with less lines. I thought they were trying to kill the past but they want to hold on to atleast one Star Wars trope.
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SwiftyDC posted...

I thought they were trying to kill the past but they want to hold on to atleast one Star Wars trope.

well like Kylo Ren as much as you want to kill the past you never can sever your ties with it completely
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