Current Events > Why hasn't Real Communism been tried yet?

(+) Yeah! (+)

It seems like a no brainer. What's holding countries back from trying out Real Communism?
---

It, uh, has.
https://www.hy-vee.com/

It is incoherent as an idea.

It has. Never works
---

we killed the bourgeoisie and then we starved to death

the end
---

It was in Paris
---

The countries in the east started out under "Real Communism", but it evolved into the Communism we know of today.
---

BErnie is trying his hardest to
---

The real question is why the fuck do people think CAPITALISM works?

Aside from the obvious, "we've been told capitalism is the best since we were children to the point where we instinctually defend it despite being the victims of the guys with the CAPITAL"?
---

Jerry_Hellyeah posted...

The real question is why the fuck do people think CAPITALISM works?

Aside from the obvious, "we've been told capitalism is the best since we were children to the point where we instinctually defend it despite being the victims of the guys with the CAPITAL"?

Capitalism has demonstrably crushed poverty and increased the standard of living across the board.

Capitalism pulls 1 billion people out of extreme poverty in under 20 years:

https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21578665-nearly-1-billion-people-have-been-taken-out-extreme-poverty-20-years-world-should-aim

It wasn't long ago since most of the planet was extremely poor:

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/global-povertys-defeat-capitalisms-triumph

Clean and sustainable energy has never been more affordable, and the trend will continue.

Private corporations are gearing up to launch the asteroid mining industry that will bring immense amounts of wealth into our economy, which means prosperity and a higher standard of living for all:

http://bigthink.com/philip-perry/nasas-asteroid-mission-likely-to-uncover-mysteries-surrounding-the-origins-of-our-solar-system

Cool infographic on how much wealth is waiting for us out there:

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/theres-big-money-made-asteroid-mining/

Mining in space will be a boon to our environment and shared economy:

https://theweek.com/articles/462830/how-asteroid-mining-could-add-trillions-world-economy
---

How is that trademarked?
---

Jerry_Hellyeah posted...

The real question is why the fuck do people think CAPITALISM works?

Aside from the obvious, "we've been told capitalism is the best since we were children to the point where we instinctually defend it despite being the victims of the guys with the CAPITAL"?

Not sure if youre serious. Quality of life in capitalist countries goes up for its citizens. There are gaps between the top and bottom earners and there are people who slip through the cracks into homelessness, but taken as a whole its the capitalist countries that lead the world in a variety of ways.
---

Jerry_Hellyeah posted...

The real question is why the fuck do people think CAPITALISM works?
"?

Cause it does.

Only people who think it doesnt are young adults and people on minimum wage
---

I love capitalism

It has allowed me to continue to make more money each year with more effort put forth and provide food and a house for my new daughter

god bless the usa :)

Anyway, regarding the topic title - it has been attempted.
---

Romes187 posted...

I love capitalism

It has allowed me to continue to make more money each year with more effort put forth and provide food and a house for my new daughter

god bless the usa :)

amen brother
---

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Romes187 posted...

I love capitalism

It has allowed me to continue to make more money each year with more effort put forth and provide food and a house for my new daughter

god bless the usa :)

amen brother

Not an exclusively Capitalist achievement.
---

What is "real communism"? Marx never offered much detail about it: most of his work is a critique of the short-comings of capitalism, but he was certain only an advanced industrial capitalist society could transition into it.
Lenin thought a primarily agrarian society could gloss over the industrial stage and go straight to communism. Whether he was right or wrong, he constructed a fairly authoritarian state upon the foundation of grass-roots Soviets(the extent to which he was forced to do so by the civil war is an open question). Nevertheless, it was seized by Stalin(one of his trusted lieutenants) and transformed into a totalitarian hell-scape from which little of use can be learned(it was and is already obvious totalitarianism is horrible).
Nonetheless, Soviet Russia became the prototype upon which others(Mao, Castro, Ho Chih Minh, etc.) based their own communist states.

Jerry_Hellyeah posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Romes187 posted...

I love capitalism

It has allowed me to continue to make more money each year with more effort put forth and provide food and a house for my new daughter

god bless the usa :)

amen brother

Not an exclusively Capitalist achievement.

communism = breadlines and starvation
---

ElatedVenusaur posted...

What is "real communism"?

Workers owning the means of production.

Which, as it turns out, actually isn't incompatible with Capitalism at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_stock_ownership_plan

Jerry_Hellyeah posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Romes187 posted...

I love capitalism

It has allowed me to continue to make more money each year with more effort put forth and provide food and a house for my new daughter

god bless the usa :)

amen brother

Not an exclusively Capitalist achievement.

Fair enough, but it is in fact a capitalist achievement :)

Not even communists are delusional enough to think communism will work.
---

Jerry_Hellyeah posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

Romes187 posted...

I love capitalism

It has allowed me to continue to make more money each year with more effort put forth and provide food and a house for my new daughter

god bless the usa :)

amen brother

Not an exclusively Capitalist achievement.

It pretty much is.
---

Communism has been tried several times.

it usually ends with starvation, genocides, secret police and political murders
---

Questionmarktarius posted...

ElatedVenusaur posted...

What is "real communism"?

Workers owning the means of production.

Which, as it turns out, actually isn't incompatible with Capitalism at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_stock_ownership_plan

By this definition, Walmart is a Communist corporation.
---

darkjedilink posted...

By this definition, Walmart is a Communist corporation.

Well... it's roughly as exploitative as communist nations, so yeah?

who has the time these days
---

Questionmarktarius posted...

darkjedilink posted...

By this definition, Walmart is a Communist corporation.

Well... it's roughly as exploitative as communist nations, so yeah?

No - I mean it's legitimately employee-owned - the largest Walmart-related shareholder group is Walmart employees, who own a larger share of the company than the entire board.
---

darkjedilink posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

darkjedilink posted...

By this definition, Walmart is a Communist corporation.

Well... it's roughly as exploitative as communist nations, so yeah?

No - I mean it's legitimately employee-owned - the largest Walmart-related shareholder group is Walmart employees, who own a larger share of the company than the entire board.

But they can't unionize or otherwise bargain collectively or they're fired.
---

It's pretty fucked up how our educational systems are trying to destroy Capitalism and all the good its done.
---

The23rdMagus posted...

darkjedilink posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

darkjedilink posted...

By this definition, Walmart is a Communist corporation.

Well... it's roughly as exploitative as communist nations, so yeah?

No - I mean it's legitimately employee-owned - the largest Walmart-related shareholder group is Walmart employees, who own a larger share of the company than the entire board.

But they can't unionize or otherwise bargain collectively or they're fired.

So? If the definition of Communism is that the workers own the means of production, Walmart is Communist.
---

darkjedilink posted...

So? If the definition of Communism is that the workers own the means of production, Walmart is Communist.

And much like actual communism, it's management being a bag of dicks that inevitably ends up ruining the whole thing.

darkjedilink posted...

The23rdMagus posted...

darkjedilink posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

darkjedilink posted...

By this definition, Walmart is a Communist corporation.

Well... it's roughly as exploitative as communist nations, so yeah?

No - I mean it's legitimately employee-owned - the largest Walmart-related shareholder group is Walmart employees, who own a larger share of the company than the entire board.

But they can't unionize or otherwise bargain collectively or they're fired.

So? If the definition of Communism is that the workers own the means of production, Walmart is Communist.

Some corporations are majority employee-owned; the term "employee-owned corporation" often refers to such companies. Such organizations are similar to worker cooperatives, but unlike cooperatives, control of the company's capital is not necessarily evenly distributed. In many cases, voting rights are given only to certain shareholders, and more senior employees may be allocated more shares than new hires; typically, they are tied to the compensation an employee receives from the company. Compared with cooperatives, ESOP-centered corporations often allow for company executives to have greater flexibility and control in governing and managing the corporation.

So workers aren't really in charge. They might own it shares of it, but certainly do not have democratic control of it which is what socialism is.

Communism is also stateless which we are far from from.There has been no true communist society just a bunch of states hijacked by a vanguard party that promise to bring communism to the people and instead turn the state into an authoritian nightmare. Would communism ever actually exist, your guess is as good as mine, but most westerners think not.
---

How could you even have more than a loose collection of villages without a state? lol

Walmart has an ESOP? I didn't know that. Some of our clients are ESOP owned but the executives still run the show.
---

Because some one or a group of people will try to take control.
---

EndOfDiscOne posted...

It seems like a no brainer. What's holding countries back from trying out Real Communism?

three big things:
1. the US military and the CIA
2. the British military
3. the French military

I've explained this on this board, in great detail, numerous times, but everyone insists that describing the actual historical context surrounding socialist states is "pinning the blame on someone else". like no shit. Castro isn't the one that made Cuba poor. Ho Chi Minh isn't the one that made Vietnam poor.

anyway, as I have also said numerous times: I know more of this history than the vast majority of people who talk about this, so I am willing to educate people as long as they first ackowledge that that's what I'm doing - an "argument" assumes a relatively even playing field, so I don't want to waste my time with someone whose entire idea of what communism is comes from Jordan Peterson videos

also keep in mind that the vast majority of stuff you've heard about socialist states and their leaders is either exaggeration or outright lies, which have their roots in the disinformation campaign lead by Goebbels in Nazi Germany. the US was a major inspiration for Nazi Germany, and Nazi Germany was a major inspiration for the US afterwards, so this really shouldn't come as a surprise.
---

creativerealms posted...

Because some one or a group of people will try to take control.

As if this werent the case in the US already.

You guys are so brainwashed over there its legitimately worrying.

By all means, go bankrupt from a bump to the noggin. Sounds worth it.
---

EndOfDiscOne posted...

Walmart has an ESOP? I didn't know that. Some of our clients are ESOP owned but the executives still run the show.

Walmart has had one for decades.
---

averagejoel posted...

EndOfDiscOne posted...

It seems like a no brainer. What's holding countries back from trying out Real Communism?

three big things:
1. the US military and the CIA
2. the British military
3. the French military

I've explained this on this board, in great detail, numerous times, but everyone insists that describing the actual historical context surrounding socialist states is "pinning the blame on someone else". like no shit. Castro isn't the one that made Cuba poor. Ho Chi Minh isn't the one that made Vietnam poor.

anyway, as I have also said numerous times: I know more of this history than the vast majority of people who talk about this, so I am willing to educate people as long as they first ackowledge that that's what I'm doing - an "argument" assumes a relatively even playing field, so I don't want to waste my time with someone whose entire idea of what communism is comes from Jordan Peterson videos

also keep in mind that the vast majority of stuff you've heard about socialist states and their leaders is either exaggeration or outright lies, which have their roots in the disinformation campaign lead by Goebbels in Nazi Germany. the US was a major inspiration for Nazi Germany, and Nazi Germany was a major inspiration for the US afterwards, so this really shouldn't come as a surprise.

Did millions of people Castro and Minh kill do it?
---

Jerry_Hellyeah posted...

By all means, go bankrupt from a bump to the noggin. Sounds worth it.

I mean, if that's your preference you can technically do it, although it would be illegal. Meanwhile, prudent and/or law-abiding citizens don't have this happen.
---

Native American economies were the closest true example of communism that has been tried.

Addendum: This is an economics discussion. Problems with the governments that (claimed to) employ Communism aren't due to the economics proposed. Central planning and mass murder aren't tenets of Communism.
---

Antifar posted...

It was in Paris

And that's really the only way it works. You have to have willing cooperation from a smaller, confined population, not a whole country.

Because that's what it is - village ideals. It's a pipe dream to expect whole nations to be on the same page with that.

Oh yeah. Yugoslavia is the only modern state that had a decent attempt/showing of communism. The workers owned their factories and means of production and would have to bribe government officials as a "tax", but their economy was stable enough to never have their government (fully) taken over by the Kremlin.
---

I always hear this complaint about Communism as if it's some sort of mutually exclusive system, but no one ever points out that our current system is actually functionally against Capitalist ideas; there is no competition and relatively little class migration.

Realistically, both sides have some good ideas and it's better to take the best from each faction instead of stubbornly clinging to one ideal over the other. The idea that it's "Communism VS Capitalism" is a Cold War ethos that just refuses to die.

KingCrabCake posted...

Jerry_Hellyeah posted...

The real question is why the fuck do people think CAPITALISM works?
"?

Cause it does.

Only people who think it doesnt are young adults and people on minimum wage

Exactly. Capitalism is 'functional' if your aim is to maintain or even increase the gap between the rich and the poor.
---

Funny how Communists can never come up with any answers.
---