Board 8 > Ace Attorney Topic Part 7: The Letting (Spoilers for AA1-6, AAI1-2)

(+) Yeah! (+)

LeonhartFour posted...

anyway I love in 6-3 how the fact that the Plumed Punisher is a Steel Samurai ripoff is actually a case-making plot point

I have my own theory about that, but I'll wait until you're done with SoJ.
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LeonhartFour posted...

the problem with that is that 3-5's ending is meant to validate his feelings about Iris

I agree; I imagine your reaction is what the writers intended. Doesn't mean I have to like it, though! It also means I have zero problems with the writers going "annnd that was dumb" and not following up with this plot point.

LeonhartFour posted...

Also, I don't think Phoenix is completely ignoring her when she asks for the necklace back. He just doesn't think she's serious (and why should he?

Annnd this would be the "perpetuating bad ideas about relationships" thing I was talking about.
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NeoElfboy posted...

It also means I have zero problems with the writers going "annnd that was dumb" and not following up with this plot point.

I'm pretty sure that's not why that happened. Of course, even if it was, I don't trust their judgment of what's dumb and what's not if they decided 4-0 was the correct followup to the OT.

NeoElfboy posted...

Annnd this would be the "perpetuating bad ideas about relationships" thing I was talking about.

well yes poor communication and pretending to be your identical twin are generally not good in relationships but again almost every fantasy romance perpetuates bad ideas about relationships, even the ones that are supposedly good, because they are, in fact, not real

besides, the circumstances of Phoenix/Iris are so absurd and would never happen in real life so I'm not going to get up in arms about it teaching people bad things about romance because I don't think anyone is actually gleaning relationship advice from it, unlike other fictional romances
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LeonhartFour posted...

reading people's 6-5 theories is consistently entertaining because the possible permutations are seemingly endless

In that case...!

Had a new epiphany this morning: now that we have Jove's face and name, we'll almost certainly give him a divination seance at some point. That could be the "evidence" we need to crack the arson case. I wonder if that's Dhurke's plan, and why he tracked the photo down so rigorously. Would be poetic for a divination seance to bring down the regime too.

I could also imagine Dhurke being responsible for Jove's death, and taking on Apollo out of guilt. But i'm not sure how that could work with what i said above. Let's see!
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Nayna is great from the start.

Question:
Which character duo that appears together in their sprites is your favorite? (not counting courtroom assistants)
Off the top of my head I remember...
Karin and Bonnie
Shi Long Lang and Shih-na
Ahlbi and Shahdo
Ben and Trilo
Trucy and Mr. Hat
Dr. Crab and that penguin
Bonny and Betty
Rayfa and Nayna
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6-3 complete

yeah that's a top ten case

the ending is so good

numbers soonish and then it's 6-4
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Total lines by character:

1. Phoenix Wright - 21961
2. Miles Edgeworth - 15023
3. Apollo Justice - 7755
4. The Judge - 6503
5. Maya Fey - 4744
6. Dick Gumshoe - 4089
7. Athena Cykes - 3761
8. Kay Faraday - 3370
9. Trucy Wright - 2494
10. Franziska von Karma - 2314
11. Ema Skye - 2158
12. Mia Fey - 1418
13. Pearl Fey - 1230
14. Klavier Gavin - 1154
15. Shi-Long Lang - 1101
16. Simon Blackquill - 1022
17. Justine Courtney - 1016
18. Larry Butz - 1008
19. Raymond Shields - 971
20. Godot - 902
21. Bobby Fulbright - 700
22. Rayfa Padma Khura'in - 650
23. Gregory Edgeworth - 649
24. Lotta Hart - 648
25. Tyrell Badd - 593
26. Dahlia Hawthorne - 578
27. Wendy Oldbag - 553
28. Khura'in Judge - 541
29. Sebastian Debeste - 521
30. Calisto Yew/Shih-na - 489
31. Adrian Andrews - 459
32. Winston Payne - 453
33. Nahyuta Sahdmadhi - 447
34. Manfred von Karma - 444
35. The Judge's Brother - 421
36. Shelly de Killer - 387
37. Lamiroir/Thalassa Gramarye - 382
38. Will Powers - 380
39. Simon Keyes - 380
40. Bikini - 351
41. Gaspen Payne - 335
42. Maggey Byrde - 323
43. Lawrence "Moe" Curls - 320
44. Kristoph Gavin - 319
45. Quercus Alba - 303
46. Valant Gramarye - 298
47. Luke Atmey - 292
48. Damon Gant - 285
49. Juniper Woods - 277
50. Ini Miney - 275
51. Angel Starr - 272
52. Ron DeLite - 271
53. Rhoda Teneiro - 268
54. Ahlbi Ur'gaid - 267
55. Katherine Hall - 267
56. Blaise Debeste - 265
57. Regina Berry - 261
58. Jake Marshall - 257
59. Jean Armstrong - 251
60. Datz Are'bal - 250
61. Nicole Swift - 250
62. Lana Skye - 249
63. Victor Kudo - 247
64. Mike Meekins - 235
65. Marvin Grossberg - 234
67. Jacques Portsman - 231
68. Spark Brushel - 230
69. Frank Sahwit - 219
70. Alita Tiala - 219
71. Hugh O'Conner - 218
72. Marlon Rimes - 217
73. Patricia Roland - 217
74. Daryan Crescend - 216
75. Dane Gustavia - 209
76. Horace Knightley - 209
77. Florent L'Belle - 208
78. Maximillion Galactica - 203
79. Ben & Trilo Quist - 200
80. Yuri Cosmos - 199
81. Sasha Buckler - 198
82. Penny Nichols - 194
83. Phineas Filch - 192
84. Jinxie Tenma - 191
85. Ken "Acro" Dingling - 182
86. Roger Retinz/Mr. Reus - 182
87. Iris - 181
88. Herman Crab - 180
89. Damian Tenma - 179
90. Pees'lubn Andistan'dhin - 178
91. Furio Tigre - 176
92. Zak Gramarye - 174
93. Matt Engarde - 171
94. Sirhan Dogen - 170
95. Cammy Meele - 168
96. Morgan Fey - 165
97. Redd White - 162
98. Betty de Famme - 156
99. Aristotle Means - 154
100. Solomon Starbuck - 154
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101. John Marsh - 153
102. Robin Newman - 153
103. Delicia Scones - 151
104. Colias Palaeno - 150
105. Dee Vasquez - 148
106. Zinc Lablanc - 146
107. Desiree DeLite - 142
108. Ted Tonate - 141
109. Trilo Quist - 140
110. Wesley Stickler - 138
111. Cody Hackins - 135
112. Norma DePlume - 134
113. Olga Orly - 131
114. Lauren Paups - 130
115. Tahrust Inmee - 130
116. Karin Jenson - 129
117. Myriam Scuttlebutt - 123
118. Aura Blackquill - 122
119. Guy Eldoon - 118
120. Wocky Kitaki - 112
121. Bonny de Famme - 111
122. Di-Jun Huang - 110
123. The Phantom - 107
124. Richard Wellington - 107
125. April May - 104
126. Vera Misham - 104
127. Jay Elbird - 102
128. Yanni Yogi - 98
129. Lance Amano - 92
130. Jeff Master - 90
131. Beh'leeb Inmee - 87
132. Viola Cadaverini - 80
133. Director Hotti/Doctor Hickfield - 76
134. Plum Kitaki - 76
135. Terry Fawles - 74
136. Drew Misham - 74
137. The Bellboy - 72
138. Ernest Amano - 68
139. Ponco - 66
140. Benjamin Woodman - 60
141. Sal Manella - 59
142. Chief of Detectives - 55
143. Bonnie Young - 53
144. Lisa Basil - 46
145. Clonco - 43
146. Machi Tobaye - 41
147. Orla Shipley - 40
148. Turner Grey - 39
149. Widget - 36
150. Inga Karkhuul Khura'in - 34
151. Elise Deauxnim - 30
152. Missile - 20
153. Polly - 20
154. Winfred "Big Wins" Kitaki - 20
155. The Amazing Mr. Hat - 19
156. Romein LeTouse - 13
157. Shah'do - 13
158. Taka - 10
159. Ga'ran Sigatar Khura'in - 5
160. Dhurke Sahdmadhi - 1

Overall total lines - 113128

Total lines by segment:

6-3 Investigation Day 1 - 1205
6-3 Trial Day 2 - 1020
6-3 Investigation Day 2 - 921
6-3 Trial Day 1 - 833

Total lines by case:

2-4 - 5946
1-5 - 5913
3-5 - 5815
E1-5 - 4831
E2-5 - 4777
4-3 - 4494
3-2 - 4151
3-3 - 4063
6-3 - 3979
E2-3 - 3959
4-4 - 3952
E2-2 - 3936
2-3 - 3884
5-2 - 3750
5-6 - 3616
4-2 - 3468
1-4 - 3466
5-3 - 3202
2-2 - 3119
6-2 - 2987
E1-4 - 2935
E2-4 - 2868
1-3 - 2741
5-5 - 2550
E1-3 - 2412
5-4 - 2018
E1-2 - 1995
E2-1 - 1923
1-2 - 1773
4-1 - 1421
6-1 - 1362
3-4 - 1225
3-1 - 1167
5-1 - 1102
E1-1 - 1039
2-1 - 899
4-0 - 679
1-1 - 389

Totals lines by game:

AAI2 - 17463
T&T - 16422
DD - 16238
PW1 - 14282
JFA - 13848
AJ - 13335
AAI1 - 13212
SoJ - 8328
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Total lines by character per case:

The Rite of Turnabout (6-3)

1. Phoenix Wright - 1731 (43.50%)
2. Rayfa Padma Khura'in - 581 (14.60%)
3. Maya Fey - 300 (7.54%)
4. Khura'in Judge - 299 (7.51%)
5. Datz Are'bal - 249 (6.26%)
6. Nahyuta Sahdmadhi - 242 (6.08%)
7. Ahlbi Ur'gaid - 151 (3.79%)
8. Tahrust Inmee - 130 (3.27%)
9. Ema Skye - 114 (2.87%)
10. Beh'leeb Inmee - 87 (2.19%)
11. Other - 60
12. Inga Karkhuul Khura'in - 23
13. Shah'do - 7
14. Ga'ran Sigatar Khura'in - 5

Total lines by character per game:

Spirit of Justice

1. Phoenix Wright - 2261
2. Apollo Justice - 1170
3. Rayfa Padma Khura'in - 650
4. Khura'in Judge - 541
5. Athena Cykes - 507
6. Nahyuta Sahdmadhi - 447
7. Maya Fey - 300
8. Ahlbi Ur'gaid - 267
9. Ema Skye - 261
10. Datz Are'bal - 249
11. Trucy Wright - 221
12. The Judge - 196
13. Gaspen Payne - 184
14. Roger Retinz/Mr. Reus - 182
15. Pees'lubn Andistan'dhin - 178
16. Other - 162
17. Betty de Famme - 156
18. Tahrust Inmee - 130
19. Bonny de Famme - 111
20. Beh'leeb Inmee - 87
21. Inga Karkhuul Khura'in - 34
22. Shah'do - 13
23. Widget - 9
24. Ga'ran Sigatar Khura'in - 5
25. Manov Mistree - 5
26. Dhurke Sahdmadhi - 1
27. Datz Are'bal - 1
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maya having one more line than judge is kinda neat.

it's crazy how low line counts have dropped since the original games relative to case length
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I think the OT just has way more optional dialogue than the other games do. Like even with free investigations returning in SoJ, it feels like there aren't as many random convos to be found and they're not as lengthy.
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is the difference found mainly in trial or in investigation?
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I'd say it's mostly in investigations, because even though the investigation segments are generally longer, they aren't resulting in a lot more lines since there's not as much back and forth bantering between the characters.

Although testimonies in the newer games tend to be shorter than the OT, too, so I guess that's fewer opportunities to get bonus convos from pressing. Plus, you can't press during a Mood Matrix or a Divination Seance either.
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although honestly I'd probably get more dialogue from the newer games if I went for all the wrong answer dialogue because they've made a lot more of that instead of just having the same three generic wrong answer dialogues from the OT
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Raka_Putra posted...

Question:
Which character duo that appears together in their sprites is your favorite? (not counting courtroom assistants)
Off the top of my head I remember...
Karin and Bonnie
Shi Long Lang and Shih-na
Ahlbi and Shahdo
Ben and Trilo
Trucy and Mr. Hat
Dr. Crab and that penguin
Bonny and Betty
Rayfa and Nayna

you forgot Aura and (I forget if it was Clonco or Ponco)
Do you count Phoenix and Mia???
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It's Aura and Clonco. Phoenix/Mia is just one time for the Super Objection. They actually have Pearl and Morgan together one time in 3-5 when they're discussing her plan.
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now it's time to try to deal with all of Uendo's personalities in the line counts
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oh hey it's the first mention of the "three freshes of soba"
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Nahyuta's lengthy diatribe on rakugo is so good
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not to confuse the narrative here, but wow the 6-5 second trial day didn't waste any time. wasn't expecting that ga'ran transformation for a long time! this is going to be goooood.

(probably won't be able to play that much tonight, but will provide some thoughts over the next hour or so)
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Blackquill's already about to pass Lang in line count and he hasn't even joined Athena at the bench yet, so I find it hard to believe he won't pass Klavier before 6-4 is over, too. I think Pearl will probably be out of reach though.
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Nahyuta's characterization is often kind of cryptic and hard to read. At the end of 6-3, he tells Phoenix he owes him a debt of gratitude, and at the beginning of 6-4, he references that he intends to pay that debt and considers it paid by the end of the case. Nahyuta behaves differently in 6-4 than he does in other cases in some ways, so I wonder if he considers this "taking it easy" on Athena or even trying to instruct her on how to be a better lawyer.
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so, got up to Inga's divination seance. long, long way to go, i suspect! still, some thoughts:

- I have no idea how they're gonna cover both these crimes here in the same trial. will it be like 1-4, where we prove Dhurke innocent of Inga's murder without implicating someone else, and then move on to the arson for the slam dunk? don't tell me, obviously; it's just tough to foresee.

- Ga'ran's prosecutorial style seems to be pure hubris, none of our arguments so far have held any water and yet we're still here because she's bored. her court presence is the closest the games have come to recreating Manfred von Karma, but her strategy is Franziska-level silly. which is probably just as well, since she can have us decapitated whenever she likes.

- thinking about it, I don't see any way this case makes sense without the sarcophagus acting as a passageway. I still can't see past Ga'ran as murderer, which makes the most likely scenario that she dressed in Dhurke-esque clothes, killed Inga, and escaped via the passageway. but then what's the deal with Nayna? who is she? where is she? if any of that's not true, by the way, I'm almost entirely out of ideas. I don't think I've been this far along in a case without understanding any of it since 3-5.

- I did work out one thing in this trial, at least - the Khura'in royal family name puns! queen anger indeed.
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LeonhartFour posted...

Nahyuta's characterization is often kind of cryptic and hard to read. At the end of 6-3, he tells Phoenix he owes him a debt of gratitude, and at the beginning of 6-4, he references that he intends to pay that debt and considers it paid by the end of the case. Nahyuta behaves differently in 6-4 than he does in other cases in some ways, so I wonder if he considers this "taking it easy" on Athena or even trying to instruct her on how to be a better lawyer.

this would have been really cool characterization if they bothered to try showing it better

Giggsalot posted...

which is probably just as well, since she can have us decapitated whenever she likes.

yeah, let's just not think too hard about it and enjoy the ridiculousness of it!
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Paratroopa1 posted...

this would have been really cool characterization if they bothered to try showing it better

yeah this is probably the most frustrating thing about Nahyuta

there's some good stuff in there somewhere, but they did such a poor job of actually drawing it out of him
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Uendo on the stand now

here's where it gets tricky
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I like how Taifu gets the Kinzo Ushiromiya treatment when it comes to leaving a message with the cards as he's suffocating, which is extremely unlikely for anyone to do

"wouldn't put it past him"
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Courtroom Revolutionaire 2016 is so good

it's a shame this is the only case where we get to hear it
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I like how Nahyuta tries to use the gallery to intimidate Athena early on, and then Blackquill uses them to pressure Uendo into testifying about the cards.

Blackquill and Nahyuta actually play off of each other really well. It's one of the more fun parts of 6-4.
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Athena interrupting Nahyuta trying to tell her "Let it go and move on" is great

perhaps the only good use of that phrase in the game

Blackquill cutting down Nahyuta's attempt to throw his beads at her is great too
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I kinda love that everyone jumps down Athena's throat for calling sake "rice wine"

I wonder how this conversation went in Japanese though
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Man, I feel like this Uendo section takes way too long, and the payoff isn't really worth it. For all the effort it takes to drag out Owen, his part in the case is over in like 10 minutes.
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Is Athena supposed to be Japanese in the Japanese game, or was she raised overseas like Franziska? If she's a foreigner, then mistaking sake for rice wine could be a legit thing? She's also pretty young.
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LeonhartFour posted...

Man, I feel like this Uendo section takes way too long, and the payoff isn't really worth it. For all the effort it takes to drag out Owen, his part in the case is over in like 10 minutes.

That's just kind of the nature of the beast sometimes - working really hard on red herrings, when the actual culprit goes down easy. I feel like Bonnie/Betty take up more time than Reus, and Datz intentionally wastes your entire Day 1, too.
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Athena is Japanese but was sent overseas after her mom died, which was when she was 11.
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Eh, I don't mind red herrings if the payoff is worth the effort you put into getting there. Owen's just a big anti-climax because it's clear from the moment he shows up that he can't be the killer. You can't even tease him as a suspect.
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I thought it was pretty clear that Datz couldn't be the killer since we were clearly looking at a two-day case. Didn't mind him though, other than the intentional frustration.
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I liked Datz as a witness because he kinda reminded me of the Tiger. He shamelessly lies all day and just revises his next lie based on whatever contradiction Phoenix points out. As I said as I was playing it, Phoenix does some darn good work breaking his testimony, too. He just broke it too much.

Plus, you never expect the day 1 witness to be the killer anyway unless it's a single-day case (as 6-4 is, so you might be inclined to think Uendo must be the killer for all the time they dedicate to him). It's just a matter of what big twist the testimony leads to next, and Datz's was pretty good in that regard.
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played a little more 6-5 tonight, decided to pause at the break before Maya takes the stand.

not much to ponder at the moment, but some assorted thoughts:

- current speculated timeline: someone (Nayna?) murders Inga dressed up as Dhurke, goes to Inga's house, loses hat to dog, and forces Maya to channel Inga's spirit, which then rushes to the tomb. he then maybe sees his own corpse, breaks down, leaves Maya's body. but then what? Dhurke could have conceivably blacked out in the tomb from illness alone, and nothing else happened, but why did Maya then claim he "saved" her?

- is it genuinely possible that the queen isn't the big bad here? I find it hard to believe - she had a motive for both crimes, and is also flagrantly evil. but she seems to have a genuine alibi for the murder, albeit a suspicious one, and her demeanor at the moment isn't as defensive as I would expect.

- crackpot theory time! I don't think I believe this, but I'm going to throw this out here now, just in case: ever since we first saw Amara, I've been fairly convinced that she and Nayna might somehow be the same person. it doesn't really make any sense on a number of levels, but their colour schemes are just eerily similar, and we know so little about Nayna that it can't really be discounted.

will try to finish this off at the weekend! feel free to ask any questions that come to mind at this point.
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I thought of Uendo as the Day 1 witness in a mini-case. But yeah, Datz reminded me a lot of Tigre in that he was just blatantly, shamelessly lying.
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man I love 6-5
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Blackquill grabbing and shaking Athena to her senses while she's in first-person is a really cool visual touch.
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Blackquill revealing the bandage on Geiru's forehead is a super cool moment too

seriously this dude is so great

top ten character for the series
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THE MURDER WEAPON WAS UDON DOUGH

this case
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Blackquill is my favorite character in the series full stop

by the way, 6-4 is actually a really great case

I think every case in SoJ has been better than I remembered so far. I might have to bump it up to my 3rd favorite game in the series.
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AA6 is awfully close to being my favorite game in the series period

if only 6-6 was just a little better

"I get your desire to inherit your father's name. But what you really should've inherited from him wasn't his name...but his heart."

I feel like that line is a pretty great lead-in to 6-5, considering Apollo and Nahyuta's relationship to Dhurke.
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LeonhartFour posted...

"I get your desire to inherit your father's name. But what you really should've inherited from him wasn't his name...but his heart."

I feel like that line is a pretty great lead-in to 6-5, considering Apollo and Nahyuta's relationship to Dhurke.

oh shit I never caught that

I mean I know there was a whole theme in AA6 of mentors and successors but still