Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 451: Clocks are banned so it's no longer Vader Time

(+) Yeah! (+)

Heatless feud that

1. Isn't guaranteed to go 30 minutes
2. Has some built in heat in that Rusev winning the WWE Title is at least kinda exciting, whereas no one cares a lick who actually is IC Champion

I must stress how much it being a match that is guaranteed to go 30 minutes hurts it when it has no heat though. Hurts it way more than if it was a singles match that just happened to go 30 minutes
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the feuds with heat were

b team

bliss

soooo
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Rusev gets heat there if he and Aiden double team him before the match

and then Aiden breaks up a 3 count or two

Have Rusev pin AJ for 3 but his foot is on the rope, ref sees it as he finished the 3 count and then reverses and then they fight some more
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The fundamental issue is an Iron Man Match with no heat is exponentially worse than a normal match without any. It literally feels like your time is guaranteed to be wasted going in. And at the end of a 4 hour show? I think most crowds are acting up there, not just Pittsburgh
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Lopen posted...

Heatless feud that

1. Isn't guaranteed to go 30 minutes
2. Has some built in heat in that Rusev winning the WWE Title is at least kinda exciting, whereas no one cares a lick who actually is IC Champion

I must stress how much it being a match that is guaranteed to go 30 minutes hurts it when it has no heat though. Hurts it way more than if it was a singles match that just happened to go 30 minutes

This would be important if they didn't start doing it 3 minutes into the match.

Considering the previous PPV had a 30 minute match between Styles and Nakamura that the crowd got more and more into despite the feud dragging on, there's really no excuse other than Pittsburgh sucks. I guarantee you they would have done it in the opening, too.
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far be it from me to defend pittsburgh but I WOULD like to suggest that knowing ahead of time that it'll go 30 mins is a factor
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I feel like despite stressing that knowing ahead of time it would be 30 minutes is the whole reason it being heatless (and at the end of the card) matters so much it has somehow gone completely over rock's head that that is what I was stressing <_<
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ScareChan posted...

the feuds with heat were

b team

bliss

soooo

This is not true. Ronda has heat. Bliss and Nia don't. B Team has a sort of wink-nudge smile, and a title change gets a pop, but the match didn't have heat.

The feuds with heat were actually:

____________________________
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Of course B Team don't have heat

They don't like heat

WE'LL GET 'EM MILD!
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Yeah Iron man should have gone on immediately after Nakamura/Hardy.

Because then it feels like this was the plan all along - to apologize for the non-match angle here have a 30 minute match with a bunch spots meant to pop you and get you back into the card for....Roman and Lashley.

Ok so its not the PERFECT plan but that's still the best way to book it when you have a card with literally no good feuds on it.
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Let's just agree to blame Brock
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Eh its just everyone's fault.

AJ is between feuds, Cena Ronda and Brock missed the card, Braun is in a fucking way too past its expiration date feud and everyone else sucks.
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TheRock1525 posted...

Lopen posted...

Heatless feud that

1. Isn't guaranteed to go 30 minutes
2. Has some built in heat in that Rusev winning the WWE Title is at least kinda exciting, whereas no one cares a lick who actually is IC Champion

I must stress how much it being a match that is guaranteed to go 30 minutes hurts it when it has no heat though. Hurts it way more than if it was a singles match that just happened to go 30 minutes

This would be important if they didn't start doing it 3 minutes into the match.

Considering the previous PPV had a 30 minute match between Styles and Nakamura that the crowd got more and more into despite the feud dragging on, there's really no excuse other than Pittsburgh sucks. I guarantee you they would have done it in the opening, too.

Can I please ask you to compare the MITB PPV to Extreme Rules?

Because you had Daniel Bryan having a legit singles match and winning, two ladder matches, a Seth Rollins match, the aforementioned AJ vs Nakamura, Ronda Rousey, and a MITB cash-in.

On Extreme Rules, the best thing you had was maybe KO taking the cage bump and I can't think of a single other entertaining thing on that. There was literally nothing keeping this crowd from trying to survive from dying of boredom. And Styles vs Nakamura was maybe 2.5 hours into this PPV that had excitement before and plenty to look forward to later, whereas this PPV had nothing else to look forward to until a finish in 30 minutes so they could go home, and nothing exciting before, and this was 3.5 hours into it.

It's terrible positioning and a crappy show.
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Oh true I forgot Bryan.

They had Bryan, Nakamura and Jeff Hardy in non match angles. Nothing they were doing had any heat but all 3 are at least very popular.
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Things to blame in order for the crowd flipping out on that match:

1. 30m Iron Man match with no heat is taking place
2. No heat match in the main event
3. 4 hour PPV
4. PPV was bad up till that point
5. Pittsburgh audience

2-3 (and 4 in a way I suppose) were unable to be avoided but I do think making less of these things line up all at once, even if you're only removing one of the factors (4 also gets mitigated if the Iron Man match is earlier since it is in theory a good match), would help
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You know what the most horrible and inexcusable thing about this show was? For a PPV called Extreme Rules, only two matches actually had anything to do with the yearly PPV centered around it.

One cage match.

A women's extreme rules match.

I remember when I saw we were getting this PPV I was excited because I thought we'd get some cool stip matches, but in the end we got two out of a twelve match card.
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Eddv posted...

Yeah Iron man should have gone on immediately after Nakamura/Hardy.

Because then it feels like this was the plan all along - to apologize for the non-match angle here have a 30 minute match with a bunch spots meant to pop you and get you back into the card for....Roman and Lashley.

Ok so its not the PERFECT plan but that's still the best way to book it when you have a card with literally no good feuds on it.

I want to say that two sudden heel gimmicky finishes in a row isn't a great idea, and Nakamura's is more interesting and got more buzz than Drew returning in Sudden Death. I would, theoretically, put that on near the end of the show. Hell, I almost would be inclined to main event it if AJ wasn't having a top title match.

And honestly, AJ/Rusev could have been built to with a major tag match. That feud felt very rushed.
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NXT Tapings Spoilers
(NOT FOR TONIGHTS EPISODE, FOR AN UPCOMING ONE)

Ciampa new NXT Champion.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Eddv posted...

Yeah Iron man should have gone on immediately after Nakamura/Hardy.

Because then it feels like this was the plan all along - to apologize for the non-match angle here have a 30 minute match with a bunch spots meant to pop you and get you back into the card for....Roman and Lashley.

Ok so its not the PERFECT plan but that's still the best way to book it when you have a card with literally no good feuds on it.

I want to say that two sudden heel gimmicky finishes in a row isn't a great idea, and Nakamura's is more interesting and got more buzz than Drew returning in Sudden Death. I would, theoretically, put that on near the end of the show. Hell, I almost would be inclined to main event it if AJ wasn't having a top title match.

And honestly, AJ/Rusev could have been built to with a major tag match. That feud felt very rushed.

I thinks its fine mainly because its hard to argue that Nakamura s match was a match.

And there wasnt a wholr lot of the faces doing Well in the booking at all.
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Did you know that of all of the main card matches, only one person who came out first won? I kept pointing it out to JONA. It was insane.
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Jakyl25 posted...

NXT Tapings Spoilers
(NOT FOR TONIGHTS EPISODE, FOR AN UPCOMING ONE)

Ciampa new NXT Champion.

Perfect
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

Lopen posted...

Heatless feud that

1. Isn't guaranteed to go 30 minutes
2. Has some built in heat in that Rusev winning the WWE Title is at least kinda exciting, whereas no one cares a lick who actually is IC Champion

I must stress how much it being a match that is guaranteed to go 30 minutes hurts it when it has no heat though. Hurts it way more than if it was a singles match that just happened to go 30 minutes

This would be important if they didn't start doing it 3 minutes into the match.

Considering the previous PPV had a 30 minute match between Styles and Nakamura that the crowd got more and more into despite the feud dragging on, there's really no excuse other than Pittsburgh sucks. I guarantee you they would have done it in the opening, too.

Can I please ask you to compare the MITB PPV to Extreme Rules?

Because you had Daniel Bryan having a legit singles match and winning, two ladder matches, a Seth Rollins match, the aforementioned AJ vs Nakamura, Ronda Rousey, and a MITB cash-in.

On Extreme Rules, the best thing you had was maybe KO taking the cage bump and I can't think of a single other entertaining thing on that. There was literally nothing keeping this crowd from trying to survive from dying of boredom. And Styles vs Nakamura was maybe 2.5 hours into this PPV that had excitement before and plenty to look forward to later, whereas this PPV had nothing else to look forward to until a finish in 30 minutes so they could go home, and nothing exciting before, and this was 3.5 hours into it.

It's terrible positioning and a crappy show.

Yet the match before they had no problems putting together "A-J Sty-les/Rusev Day" dueling chants despite supposedly being burnt-out from the PPV not being any good and Styles/Rusev being a feud as underwhelming as Rollins/Ziggler.

I see a million excuses for the behavior but it falls apart under any level of scrutiny. "We can pop for a Ronda run-in but we can't not act like assholes when we see a clock! Can you fault us?" You may as well be excusing CM Punk chants in 2018 or 1-2-SWEEEEEEEET.
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TheRock1525 posted...

Yet the match before they had no problems putting together "A-J Sty-les/Rusev Day" dueling chants despite supposedly being burnt-out from the PPV not being any good and Styles/Rusev being a feud as underwhelming as Rollins/Ziggler.

It was a match they did not care about that was guaranteed BEFOREHAND to go 30 minutes why is this not getting through to you as a difference that matters <_<
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And here's an extreme example if you can't piece together why that would matter.

Say there is a match announced... I dunno, pick two random guys you don't care a bit about and put them in a match. I'll just pick two guys I think most people don't care about for the sake of a most ridiculous example:

Roman Reigns vs Jinder Mahal

Okay, so you don't really care about watching these two have a match, but you'll probably begrudgingly accept it. Now let's change the match.

Roman Reigns vs Jinder Mahal (90 minute iron man match)

How hyped are you at the beginning of the 90 minutes to devote the next hour and a half of your life to watching two guys you don't really care about watching wrestle have a match. Now consider your reaction if you'd already been watching an underwhelming wrestling show for 3 and a half hours beforehand.

If it was just announced as a singles match, you'd probably just watch it, right? But I imagine your reaction to that match listing I gave after 3 hours and 30 minutes of wrestling is to just go home.

Obviously the reaction to Dolph vs Rollins isn't going to be as bad, but to many people watching them wrestle isn't necessarily much more exciting than Jinder vs Roman, given the lack of build.
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I'd watch Roman vs Jinder (90 minute iron man match) just to see how big of a trainwreck the crowd could make it <_<
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I feel the same way honestly and almost didn't put that. But it was too good not to post

Put it down to 30 minutes if you must you get the point
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Lopen posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

Yet the match before they had no problems putting together "A-J Sty-les/Rusev Day" dueling chants despite supposedly being burnt-out from the PPV not being any good and Styles/Rusev being a feud as underwhelming as Rollins/Ziggler.

It was a match they did not care about that was guaranteed BEFOREHAND to go 30 minutes why is this not getting through to you as a difference that matters <_<

Cause it doesn't matter. Like at all. Because in the history of Iron Man matches, no audience acted like this big of jackasses, and I'm sure not everyone Iron Man match was surrounded by the best card. You can keep pointing this out and it's completely irrelevant. They didn't do it because they knew it was gonna be 30 minutes long, they did it because there was a countdown timer and they said decided to act like morons because that's all WWE audiences know how to do anymore. They'll literally chant about women giving blowjobs and then have the audacity to criticize the WWE for it's treatment of women. They'll chant for fucking beach balls.

The point is that there was no excuse for that behavior, especially for a performer the quality of Rollins. Fuck them.
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Audiences have acted like Jackasses for matches they didn't want to see many many times. They haven't for Iron Man matches because they're generally accompanied by good builds

If you think knowing the match is 30 minutes doesn't matter though you pretty much haven't paid attention to any WWE matches in the 21st century. The audience doesn't care about matches until they think a finish is possible. Guess what's true about a 30 minute Iron Man matches for the first 25 minutes...
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NXT SPOILERS

BTW, isn't that the first NXT main title change to occur on a non-Takeover since their inception? Obviously tag titles have changed.
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Also before you claim it's an excuse many people were saying that match was going to be death immediately as it was announced.

These were probably the same people who had a clue that Almas was not a main roster draw but you know
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Lopen posted...

If you think knowing the match is 30 minutes doesn't matter though you pretty much haven't paid attention to any WWE matches in the 21st century. The audience doesn't care about matches until they think a finish is possible. Guess what's true about a 30 minute Iron Man matches for the first 25 minutes...

And yet this is the first Iron Man match to feature an audience counting down the minutes like a Royal Rumble buzzer. If this is a common problem, why has it LITERALLY NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE? And I'll admit that maybe I'm mistaken and it has, but every other audience found a way not to be assholes. Pretty much everyone thinks the behavior was garbage, look at the twitter responses to Rollins posting about it.

And you cite "in the 21st century." 13 of the 16 have occurred in the 21st century. One of them was literally Orton vs. Cena in their never-ending feud that went the full hour, and they didn't completely ruin the match like the Pittsburgh crowd did.

Stop making fucking excuses and condemn shitty behavior.
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Lopen posted...

Also before you claim it's an excuse many people were saying that match was going to be death immediately as it was announced.

Who said this? Most people I heard said it was a good way to draw something out of a heatless feud, rather than just a generic rematch. Hence why there was a big advocacy for it to go on last instead of Lashley/Reigns, which was Vince's original plan.
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Orton vs Cena when they had an Iron Man match wasn't quite thoroughly run into the ground yet IIRC. Also it had actual stakes.

But I mean watch the actual matches and the audience will be dead for any of those matches for the first half. The audience never rioted because they were never after 3 hours of trash but they've always been slower starters than you'd expect cause the audience is trained for a certain type of match that Iron Man matches work directly counter to
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TheRock1525 posted...

Lopen posted...

Also before you claim it's an excuse many people were saying that match was going to be death immediately as it was announced.

Who said this? Most people I heard said it was a good way to draw something out of a heatless feud, rather than just a generic rematch. Hence why there was a big advocacy for it to go on last instead of Lashley/Reigns, which was Vince's original plan.

Many people in this topic, including myself. Not sure where you were.
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Lopen posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

Lopen posted...

Also before you claim it's an excuse many people were saying that match was going to be death immediately as it was announced.

Who said this? Most people I heard said it was a good way to draw something out of a heatless feud, rather than just a generic rematch. Hence why there was a big advocacy for it to go on last instead of Lashley/Reigns, which was Vince's original plan.

Many people in this topic, including myself. Not sure where you were.

Care to post examples? And I don't operate exclusively here, so on other parts of the internet I saw differently.

If I followed just here, I'd believe Sasha Banks is the dirt worst when she's rather loved everywhere else.
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Lopen posted...

Orton vs Cena when they had an Iron Man match wasn't quite thoroughly run into the ground yet IIRC. Also it had actual stakes.

Both matches involved fighting for the top prize on RAW. And also, how is it run into the ground when it was 2009 and there's only been 3 on PPV since?
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Rock are you seriously using the Corrik "Well, other places say what I'm saying, so" argument
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Cena vs Orton wasn't thoroughly run into the ground, not Iron Man Matches <_<

Reactions from when it was announced.

A 30 minute iron man match is just a poorly booked 30 minute time limit draw

60 minute ones are cool though not with very little feud build like this one


Yeah there's been a couple of feuds over the last few years that I really thought could justify it. This obviously couldn't. This seems to be to more like "OK, these guys are really good, will probably put on a really strong match, and we can now guarantee they're going to go 30 minutes".


Yeah this is just a 'we know this feud has no heat but these are two good hands and we're gonna let them go 30, please watch people who like good matches' which is honestly probably the best way to book Ziggler in 2018

I mean I guess this isn't exactly proclaiming it death but only Jakyl had a remotely positive reaction to it overall, despite containing guys that will presumably wrestle a good match.
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StealThisSheen posted...

Rock are you seriously using the Corrik "Well, other places say what I'm saying, so" argument

Because wrestling literally extends beyond these topics, yes. I don't know how that relates to Corrik since I have him blocked but Sasha is really liked outside of these topics and people are constantly bitching about how she's misused and is the most talented woman on the roster.

Do you believe that Sasha is as universally hated by wrestling fans as she is in these topics, or do you understand that this is a small snapshot of wrestling fandom, almost infinitesimal in comparison to the millions that watch? When I see Seth Rollins tweet the countdown and he gets dozens upon dozens of responses from Twitter people that he deserved better and the crowd was shit, what do you think I'm going to believe? That the crowd was awful or a handful of users here saying the crowd was justified? Which do you think is an accurate interpretation of wrestling fans' opinions on the crowd?
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You deserved a better crowd

You was robbed and the crowd was shocking and so rude, you and Dolph both deserved better

Basically, they were being disrespectful during the whole match.

No that beyond sucks at this point as well. WWE really need to figure out how to start taking the crowd out of it and keeping the focus on the wrestlers, because modern crowds are ruining the product.

They tried to give us a 30 minute iron man match between the 2 of the best workers in WWE for the IC Title in the Main Event of a PPV that everyone thought Roman was going to headline. What more do you want? Absolutely disrespectful crowd.

Dont even speak about it, you and Dolph deserve better, especially after this amazing match.

You two deserved SO much better. Match of the night. I hate how fans cant just enjoy whats in front of them and instead act like children. Youre honestly carrying Raw on your shoulders every week.

Absolutely disgraceful crowd during that match. We all wanted this match to main event, we got what we wanted, Rollins and Ziggler poured their hearts into the match, and this is the thanks they get. It's a freaking joke and both these guys deserved far better #ExtremeRules

This is just me pulling a handful of quotes off of Twitter in response to Rollins.
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I respect thoughts from this topic more than random goobers from Twitter. Have you read fans on Twitter
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Lopen posted...

I respect thoughts from this topic more than random goobers from Twitter. Have you read fans on Twitter

Some are awful.

Some are better than people here.

I mean we're a topic that literally used to feature MWC making several posts.

The point is that it's a much larger and more accurate snapshot of fandom than just our little bubble.
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Not really. People who post on Twitter are a very specific type of fan that have been further skewed by a WWE that actively encourages sycophantic posting on Twitter. I'd sooner trust the audience at Extreme Rules an accurate cross section of the fan base (though that has other obvious problems)
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I don't. Especially since audiences are generally limited to people living nearby for the most part. Why do you think we can get great audiences for shit PPVs and terrible audiences for great PPVs, or audibly groan when we know we're getting a Dallas crowd? Think about a Montreal crowd, is that an accurate telling of the entire WWE fanbase? Hell, they probably would have been going nuts for the entire PPV even if it was shit, do you think you'd be going "wow, I guess the PPV was actually really good because they were into it."?
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To clarify what I'm saying there a larger sample isn't always a more accurate one. I have more reason to believe a bunch of people on a GameFAQs message board about a video game popularity contest who happen to post in a wrestling topic on that board represents wrestling fans because it hasn't been primed by WWE encouraging us to come here and to be positive so our post will get on TV

Pittsburgh would actually be okay-- that sample is mostly tainted by the fact that only people who are willing to buy a ticket for 2018 WWE are in it moreso than it being near Pittsburgh. Worse tainted or less tainted than Twitter people posting in an Extreme Rules feed I dunno but I'd probably lean less if we're gauging positive reactions vs negative.
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How much time has to pass before it becomes acceptable for me to say that I miss MWC's trolling?

It's always fun to laugh.
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TheRock1525 posted...

"wow, I guess the PPV was actually really good because they were into it."?

You realize this is basically the entire basis for the hulkamania era right?

People were so fucking mental for a handful of acts that the whole thing caught fire because the crowds were just always fire for like 5 years in a row (mania 3-6 bare minimum)
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Crowd reaction is definitely a big deal. I think Hogan Warrior WM6 is a legit 4* match despite containing like 15 minutes of rest holds. But you gotta earn that reaction to some extent no matter where you are. I don't think any audience on Earth gives nonstop hype for this PPV
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TheRock1525 posted...

or audibly groan when we know we're getting a Dallas crowd?

hol up what's wrong with a Dallas crowd
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Lopen posted...

To clarify what I'm saying there a larger sample isn't always a more accurate one. I have more reason to believe a bunch of people on a GameFAQs message board about a video game popularity contest who happen to post in a wrestling topic on that board represents wrestling fans because it hasn't been primed by WWE encouraging us to come here and to be positive so our post will get on TV

I can also go to non-Twitter websites about wrestling fandom where they're not trying to get their posts recognized and retweeted by WWE and get the same results. Would their unique bubble of thoughts be any more or less indicative, especially since these thoughts extend beyond 280 characters or whatever Twitter's limit is?

I was there...it was awful live

I have to go watch the match on the network on mute just to see it. I couldnt pay attention through most of the match. It was embarrassing.

The one thing you can bet is that you wont be seeing Pittsburgh hosting anything of significance in the E anytime soon. The next show announced was a SD Live on a Saturday. Thinking we can expect more of the same here for quite some time.

was there

The crowd ruined the Iron Man match for sure. It wasnt even most of the crowd, just enough instigators to mar things. I thought crowd was pretty good otherwise people in my section seemed to have fun.

I thought Reigns was unpopular and not over, thus he doesn't have much fans due to being stale and shoved down everyone's throats.

Fact here is that, even with Reigns not in the Main Event, the crowd still highjacked the match and made it unwatchable for many even though the alleged major fan favourite in Seth Rollins was one of the guys involved.

It was 4-4.5 hours if you count the preshow matches

Which, considering the fans were still filtering in during Almas vs Sin Cara, perhaps it shouldnt.

However, I tend to agree using the line "it was a 4.5 hour show" is nothing but an excuse to take some heat off the Pittsburgh crowd, and they dont deserve that kind of excuse-making. They were awful and should have to wear that.

The Iron Man Match, The WWE Title Match, The US Title Match, Andrade vs Sin Cara, New Day vs SANitY, Owens vs Braun, and 2B vs HellNah

Were for the most part a fun series of matches and alone would make a pretty good card, so I didnt hate this PPVbut I also did have the Fast Forward button for the matches that I didnt care about so that may have helped. I hated the crowd in that main event because I LOVED the story of that match and it deserved a better soundtrack than that garbage. It still felt like a long night, and I get that but cmon Dolph, Seth, and Drew delivered

Yo Pittsburgh is a trash crowd

Embarrassing display during what was a very solid Iron Man match. A good crowd makes me more invested in the match at home. This crowd distracted me from the effort in the ring.

That crowd was utter trash.

I didnt even watch half of the ironman match because of them. I hate it when crowds shit all over the wrestlers like that, even if its not directly at them.

If anything, WWE will be more likely to go back with Reigns main eventing everything because to them it will seem like crowds will go into business for themselves regardless.

That's pretty much all I can fit in a single post but I've got several more non-Twitter comments about the crowd.
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