Current Events > Is Putin really a bad guy?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Why does everyone hate him so much? I dont follow much, but he seems like the strongest leader in the world imo, is that why people hate him?
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Magnitsky

EDIT: Also, this interview is long but really eye opening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkRXLDnxNKw" data-time="

I think it is worth noting that in Helsinki, Putin asked BY NAME for his agents to have access to Browder and people around him.

http://time.com/5340545/bill-browder-vladimir-putin-magnitsky-act-donald-trump/
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As long as he doesn't ban import Vodka.
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PrettyBoyFloyd posted...

As long as he doesn't ban import Vodka.

Swedish vodka best vodka
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solosnake posted...

Why does everyone hate him so much? I dont follow much, but he seems like the strongest leader in the world imo, is that why people hate him?

because russia was an enemy during the cold war long before anybody here was born and therefore they are evil FOREVER
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Rika_Furude posted...

because russia was an enemy during the cold war long before anybody here was born and therefore they are evil FOREVER

I mean, thats what it seems like tbh
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He's bad because he hates gays and wants to suppress them.

scar the 1 posted...

PrettyBoyFloyd posted...

As long as he doesn't ban import Vodka.

Swedish vodka best vodka

Svedka drinker confirmed
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Rika_Furude posted...

solosnake posted...

Why does everyone hate him so much? I dont follow much, but he seems like the strongest leader in the world imo, is that why people hate him?

because russia was an enemy during the cold war long before anybody here was born and therefore they are evil FOREVER

No, they weren't that bad in the 90s. Yeltsin was kind of a dummy, and a drunk, but he was a properly elected leader with checks and balances. There were corrupt oligarchs but it wasn't until Putin assumed power that the country became a true dictatorship.

Seriously, look what happened to the Russian lawyer who was exposing their corruption (Magnitsky).
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Why do you ask this forum instead of researching yourself?

Here's the back of his baseball card;
- Has murdered multiple people, mostly critics and political opponents, generally either through arrests that lead to disappearances or through poisoning. The list is ridiculously long for a world leader.
- Is behind a government that has annexed foreign territory (Crimea) and was behind shooting down a civilian aircraft.
- Has ties to the Russian criminal underground.
- Has no publicly been implicated in manipulating elections on US soil (and likely elsewhere).
- Has held on to 'democratic' power through underhanded or autocratic means for a ridiculously long time.
- Has basically criminalized homosexuality.
So yeah, he's pretty bad. In fact, he's one funky outfit away from being a GI Joe villain.

action52 posted...

Rika_Furude posted...

solosnake posted...

Why does everyone hate him so much? I dont follow much, but he seems like the strongest leader in the world imo, is that why people hate him?

because russia was an enemy during the cold war long before anybody here was born and therefore they are evil FOREVER

No, they weren't that bad in the 90s. Yeltsin was kind of a dummy, and a drunk, but he was a properly elected leader with checks and balances. There were corrupt oligarchs but it wasn't until Putin assumed power that the country became a true dictatorship.

Seriously, look what happened to the Russian lawyer who was exposing their corruption (Magnitsky).

interesting. ill concede that i posted that without thinking
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Just cause he bad guy. Doesn't mean he bad guy


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Dash_Harber posted...

Here's the back of his baseball card;
- Has murdered multiple people, mostly critics and political opponents, generally either through arrests that lead to disappearances or through poisoning. The list is ridiculously long for a world leader.
- Is behind a government that has annexed foreign territory (Crimea) and was behind shooting down a civilian aircraft.
- Has ties to the Russian criminal underground.
- Has no publicly been implicated in manipulating elections on US soil (and likely elsewhere).
- Has held on to 'democratic' power through underhanded or autocratic means for a ridiculously long time.
- Has basically criminalized homosexuality.
So yeah, he's pretty bad. In fact, he's one funky outfit away from being a GI Joe villain.

no idea about any of the murdering, and even if true is it even really him? Or is it the intelligence agencies? Ours do the same things?

Crimea I view as a positive and a sign of strength. No way they can let their only navy slip away to the west when they are this openly hostile towards russia. Not to mention the people overwhelmingly voted to become part of russia.

The airplane was a mistake, honestly no planes should be flying over syria, period.

the ties to the russian underground thing sounds like people connecting bush family to nazis. Fscinating conspiracy but nothing more

I really cant believe the USA intelligence communities for anything they ever say afer the weapons of mass destruction in iraq

havent heard of criminalizing homosexuality, but if thats true i doubt it was putin that made that a practice, likelt part of russia for a long time sadly. Hopefully they can change
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Yes.

Next question.
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solosnake posted...

The airplane was a mistake, honestly no planes should be flying over syria, period.

???

When did they shoot down another one
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Only in America will you find people reaching for straws as to why a totalitarian dictator murderer is a good guy for the sole purpose of justifying their own political party's fuck up.

We've all seen the Facebook memes. Yes, Putin is a bad guy and Trump is a bad president

Authentic_fan posted...

Only in America will you find people reaching for straws as to why a totalitarian dictator murderer is a good guy for the sole purpose of justifying their own political party's fuck up.

We've all seen the Facebook memes. Yes, Putin is a bad guy and Trump is a bad president

I dont vote. I just become alarmed when there is this much hatred towards anything in the world.
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solosnake posted...

no idea about any of the murdering, and even if true is it even really him? Or is it the intelligence agencies? Ours do the same things?

Well, literally all the people that die are personal critics of him, so that should be the warning sign for you right there.

Here is a list of ten of the more popular ones;
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/03/23/here-are-ten-critics-of-vladimir-putin-who-died-violently-or-in-suspicious-ways

solosnake posted...

Crimea I view as a positive and a sign of strength. No way they can let their only navy slip away to the west when they are this openly hostile towards russia. Not to mention the people overwhelmingly voted to become part of russia.

Firstly, if it's such a morally righteous sign of strength, why do they deny it? Second, there have been concerns of election tampering from the beginning. More importantly, the Ukrainian courts openly deemed the referendum illegal.

Also, you can't just go around hacking pieces of other countries off because it's convenient for you.

solosnake posted...

The airplane was a mistake, honestly no planes should be flying over syria, period.

Yeah, totally not their fault, what with all the civilian planes that get shot down everyday accidentally by other superpowers, right? /s

solosnake posted...

the ties to the russian underground thing sounds like people connecting bush family to nazis. Fscinating conspiracy but nothing more

I don't know, reputable sources have written about it way better than I could explain it;
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/23/how-organised-crime-took-over-russia-vory-super-mafia

solosnake posted...

havent heard of criminalizing homosexuality, but if thats true i doubt it was putin that made that a practice, likelt part of russia for a long time sadly. Hopefully they can change

It's technically not criminalized, fair enough. The law is actually against a ban on the 'propaganda of pedophilia and homosexuality', which is not really defined and basically means that homosexual people can be persecuted at the state's discretion. There is more to unpack here, though;

First, you seem to be taking the easy way out of saying, "he didn't do it personally" repeatedly. He signed off on the law. It was not out of his control.

Second, gay marriages are illegal there, full stop.

Third, we actually have examples of the government using this to round up and torture gay men in Chechyna in 2017.

But really, there is more than enough evidence here to, at the very least, be incredibly suspicious of Putin and his government. Either way, your only defense seems to be "oh, I never heard about that", "he says he didn't do it", or "that wasn't him, directly". If it's the latter, then you are saying he is a helpless patsy, which is just as dangerous to befriend.

Dash_Harber posted...

Either way, your only defense seems to be "oh, I never heard about that", "he says he didn't do it", or "that wasn't him, directly".

Is it possible TC is our president?
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Putin is an ex KGB snake that has successfully eroded the democracy in his country and assumed full authoritarian dictatorship. In America you'd consider it un-democratic to lie in the news or make life difficult for journalists. In Russia they get a government sanctioned hitman to murder you and don't even really bother to cover it up. There's really not much else to say about it.
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Dash_Harber posted...

First, you seem to be taking the easy way out of saying, "he didn't do it personally" repeatedly. He signed off on the law. It was not out of his control.

I'm just trying to be realistic about it. Hes not some boogey man. People say the same crap about every world leader it seems like. Theres always conspiracies. If you view the same thing from two different sides it looks completely different. I try not to get caught up. Its not like I am supporting Putin. I am playing devils advocate
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solosnake posted...

I'm just trying to be realistic about it. Hes not some boogey man. People say the same crap about every world leader it seems like. Theres always conspiracies. If you view the same thing from two different sides it looks completely different. I try not to get caught up. Its not like I am supporting Putin. I am playing devils advocate

Definite possibility he's the president.
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yes. he's evil
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solosnake posted...

I'm just trying to be realistic about it. Hes not some boogey man.

Saying he is an autocratic tyrant is not saying he is a bogeyman.

solosnake posted...

People say the same crap about every world leader it seems like.

No, they don't. Maybe other dictators, but I, for example, haven't seen any reputable sources report on Canada attempting to cause a revolt in Alaska so they can annex it, or how Angela Merkel's 20 top critics all mysteriously died. These are not minor accusations or fringe conspiracy theories. Experts from around the world agree because of the insurmountable amount of evidence.

solosnake posted...

Theres always conspiracies. If you view the same thing from two different sides it looks completely different.

So you are arguing for subjective morality? Are you saying that there is a way to look at it where Putin is okay for condoning the torture of homosexuals, for murdering innocent journalists who question him, or for the mountain of other things I've listed?

Basically, you are saying that we should be his best friend despite his reputation for violence and tyranny, because ... there are good people on both sides or something?

solosnake posted...

I try not to get caught up. Its not like I am supporting Putin. I am playing devils advocate

So what is your goal here? To convince people to give Putin a second chance? To convince us to ignore all the heinous, immoral, and illegal acts he's done over the years because it's no big deal? Do you feel the same way about Kim Jong Un? Al Qeada? ISIS/ISIL? Gaddafi? Saddam?

No, Im just saying dont resort to irrational hatred over something. It is important to be 100% sure. Dont just blindly follow propaganda. The implications here have the potential to change an entire generation across the planet.
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if you don't see that's he's he bad guy, you haven't been paying attention at all. and no, I don't just mean watching the news
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solosnake posted...

No, Im just saying dont resort to irrational hatred over something. It is important to be 100% sure. Dont just blindly follow propaganda. The implications here have the potential to change an entire generation across the planet.

Dude like 4 minutes of light reading will give you more than enough reason to confirm that Putin is indeed the boogeyman.
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I dont know if any of you guys lived through "Weapons of mass destruction" but this frenzy really reminds me of that
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solosnake posted...

I dont know if any of you guys lived through "Weapons of mass destruction" but this frenzy really reminds me of that

Are you fucking kidding me

Where have you been the past 20 years? Bad press about Putin didn't begin in 2016 when Trump got elected. It predates fucking Clinton dude.
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pinky0926 posted...

solosnake posted...

I dont know if any of you guys lived through "Weapons of mass destruction" but this frenzy really reminds me of that

Are you fucking kidding me

Where have you been the past 20 years? Bad press about Putin didn't begin in 2016 when Trump got elected. It predates fucking Clinton dude.

? pretty sure Putin wasnt even elected till 2000
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All the criticism of Putin really hits the "both sides" nerve in me. Yes, Putin is indeed the boogeyman and a horrible strongman. Let's not deny that.

...but let's be clear about the fact that the US is not a lot better. Sadly Trump has a little bit of a point. The annexation of Crimea is more or less a direct response to the US expanding NATO and trying to more and more encircle Russia. When Ukraine starts flirting with NATO, of course he's gonna act. There's no excuse, but the US played a part as well.
And more broadly, the US meddles with a lot of other countries in the world quite boldly, and not very ethically. The 20th century is full of examples, and the 21st won't be a lot better. The industrial military complex is a huge beast. I know it's not the same, but sometimes people seem to think that America (or the west) are unequivocal good guys, when they're just as self-serving as anyone else in the world, they just happen to have the most power.
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solosnake posted...

? pretty sure Putin wasnt even elected till 2000

Because press only exists for sitting presidents
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scar the 1 posted...

All the criticism of Putin really hits the "both sides" nerve in me. Yes, Putin is indeed the boogeyman and a horrible strongman. Let's not deny that.

...but let's be clear about the fact that the US is not a lot better. Sadly Trump has a little bit of a point. The annexation of Crimea is more or less a direct response to the US expanding NATO and trying to more and more encircle Russia. When Ukraine starts flirting with NATO, of course he's gonna act. There's no excuse, but the US played a part as well.
And more broadly, the US meddles with a lot of other countries in the world quite boldly, and not very ethically. The 20th century is full of examples, and the 21st won't be a lot better. The industrial military complex is a huge beast. I know it's not the same, but sometimes people seem to think that America (or the west) are unequivocal good guys, when they're just as self-serving as anyone else in the world, they just happen to have the most power.

This guy gets it
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solosnake posted...

No, Im just saying dont resort to irrational hatred over something.

Okay, there seems to be two things you aren't understanding about what I'm saying;
- It's not hatred. Calling someone a tyrant and an autocrat is not hatred. I feel he is a threat to many democratic countries around the world and feel he should be treated cautiously.
- It's not blind. My feelings are based on history and facts.

solosnake posted...

It is important to be 100% sure. Dont just blindly follow propaganda.

While we can't prove without a doubt that everything is his direct result, we have reasonable evidence that he has been orchestrating murders, annexations, and various human rights violations for a long time.

Also, you can't just call everything that disagrees without propaganda because it's convenient. You may choose to bury your head in the sand and refuse to listen to anything going on, but that means your opinion is going to be nearly useless in any actual practical discussion.

solosnake posted...

The implications here have the potential to change an entire generation across the planet.

So what you are saying is that America should buddy up with Putin because he says that he didn't do all those things and he says that anything that criticizes him is propaganda?

solosnake posted...

I dont know if any of you guys lived through "Weapons of mass destruction" but this frenzy really reminds me of that

This is nothing like that.

Since you seemed to miss my question, I'll ask again; do you also feel this way about other famous tyrants and dictators such as Saddam Hussein or Gaddafi? Or how about famous terrorist organizations such as Al Qeada or ISIS/ISIL? As you said, we have to be 100% sure and everything can be interpreted as propaganda.

He murders people who disagree with him, or say bad things about him, and he murders people because of their sexual partners.
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solosnake posted...

scar the 1 posted...

All the criticism of Putin really hits the "both sides" nerve in me. Yes, Putin is indeed the boogeyman and a horrible strongman. Let's not deny that.

...but let's be clear about the fact that the US is not a lot better. Sadly Trump has a little bit of a point. The annexation of Crimea is more or less a direct response to the US expanding NATO and trying to more and more encircle Russia. When Ukraine starts flirting with NATO, of course he's gonna act. There's no excuse, but the US played a part as well.
And more broadly, the US meddles with a lot of other countries in the world quite boldly, and not very ethically. The 20th century is full of examples, and the 21st won't be a lot better. The industrial military complex is a huge beast. I know it's not the same, but sometimes people seem to think that America (or the west) are unequivocal good guys, when they're just as self-serving as anyone else in the world, they just happen to have the most power.

This guy gets it

Gets what? Two wrongs don't make a right.

solosnake posted...

This guy gets it

His point is very different to yours.
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pinky0926 posted...

solosnake posted...

This guy gets it

His point is very different to yours.

Yeah, I'm still calling a spade a spade. I'm not agreeing with TC at all, just to be clear.
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Saddam was our puppet that decided to stop obeying imo
Gaddafi was going to stop supporting the dollar so they assassinated him
Those organizations were inadvertantly created by the cia to fight to soviets in the 80s, but it goes back even farther than that. The problem is both countries have supplied them with weapons they shouldnt/couldnt have gotten otherwise.

but really that stuff is way off topic here.
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solosnake posted...

Saddam was our puppet that decided to stop obeying imo

Sounds like a conspiracy. Are you sure you know that 100%? That event affected a generation, so you should totally be 100% sure. Definitely need to see both sides, right? Don't want to be brainwashed by propaganda.

solosnake posted...

Gaddafi was going to stop supporting the dollar so they assassinated him

Sounds like a conspiracy. Are you sure you know that 100%? That event affected a generation, so you should totally be 100% sure. Definitely need to see both sides, right? Don't want to be brainwashed by propaganda.

solosnake posted...

Those organizations were inadvertantly created by the cia to fight to soviets in the 80s, but it goes back even farther than that. The problem is both countries have supplied them with weapons they shouldnt/couldnt have gotten otherwise.

Sounds like a conspiracy. Are you sure you know that 100%? That event affected a generation, so you should totally be 100% sure. Definitely need to see both sides, right? Don't want to be brainwashed by propaganda.

ok? like i said way off topic here. Besides you seem perturbed perhaps you should take a timeout?

I just dont really want to go to war is the bottom line here.
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solosnake posted...

I just dont really want to go to war is the bottom line here.

Then you're in the wrong country :)
https://www.quora.com/How-many-completely-peaceful-warless-years-has-America-had-since-July-4th-1776
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solosnake posted...

I dont vote

Then you shouldn't complain when your country goes to shit.
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Kalavinka posted...

Then you shouldn't complain when your country goes to s***.

I mean what was the option? To vote for Clinton again?
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solosnake posted...

ok? like i said way off topic here.

I'm pointing out that your argument is ridiculous because if we apply it to literally any other tyrant, it falls apart. Again, it boils down to, "He didn't do that directly because he said he didn't and if he did do it, I've never heard about it so it doesn't count, and if you have proof, that's propaganda".

solosnake posted...

Besides you seem perturbed perhaps you should take a timeout?

Not at all, and your assertion that I am is pure appeal to emotion. If your argument can't stand on it's own two legs, accept it and move on, don't throw logical fallacies at everyone else trying to (and failing) to save face.

solosnake posted...

I just dont really want to go to war is the bottom line here.

And neither do I. Where did I even remotely imply that anyone should? I'm saying that he is dangerous and should be treated as such and that more measures need to be taken to ensure he does not meddle in foreign affairs. Saying that the only options are to fight a war or go, 'oh, that's just Vlad, he's a little rascal' while letting him run roughshod over the rest of the world is a blatant false dilemma. Those aren't the only two options.

Dash, I think your leg is being pulled here
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scar the 1 posted...

Dash, I think your leg is being pulled here

I get that feeling as well, but I'm a sucker for hashing stuff like this out. At least it's a bit stimulating to have a reason to refresh my memory on current events.