Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 452: WWE - Who Watches, Even?

(+) Yeah! (+)

RaidenZeroX posted...

Talented when it comes to wrestling, but still an absolute jackass.

Tbh I've been saying for a long time he's really overrated as a wrestler too. Not saying he's bad per se but I was never a huge fan.

Like he gets brought up in best of all time discussions and it's just like "who are you kiddin"
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Punk has always been a great wrestler, shit person. A lot of wrestlers fit that description though.
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Punk had a lot of right time right place things.

Does anyone believe that given the ball like that, say, Ken Kennedy couldn't have been just as big?
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Does anyone believe that given the ball like that, say, Ken Kennedy couldn't have been just as big?

holy fucking shit yes I do believe that

Kennedy is one of the most overrated guys ever. Literally a one-note gimmick guy.
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MR

LENNEDY

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LENNEdy
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Anyone with passable mic skills given free reign to "shoot" in that era could have been as popular as punk was yeah

Punk is better in the ring than Kennedy though, even if I think he's overrated there too (less so)
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Kennedy was good imo but not THAT good
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Kennedy could not have pulled off anything like what Punk did. Kennedy was good at being a fun over the top asshole wrestler dude, I don't think he was nearly good enough at more serious, down to earth promos to sound particularly plausible doing the whole "worked shoot" routine that made Punk take off.
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Keep in mind it's easier to be good on the mic when you're given good material to work with, even beyond just the content being interesting. The other aspects like emotion and cadence and whatever else will come off as better. Punk has a ton of really whatever kinda promos. Can you recall a single promo he made as, for instance, the leader of the New Nexus? No? Probably because they were the exact same promos he cut as the leader of the Straight Edge Society but without the novelty factor (which wore off well before the SES disbanded)

Compare Miz's infamous Talking Smack promo to his random time killing Miz TV segments. It's like night and day. And that's being given like 1/10 the freedom Punk was.
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Lopen posted...

Can you recall a single promo he made as, for instance, the leader of the New Nexus?

Vividly

Well

I remember that whole stretch where Orton was punting the rest of the Nexus dudes and Punk would just stand on a ramp politely asking him not to while always referring to him as "Randall" instead of Randy

<_<
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I remember new nexis punk for sure.
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Keep in mind I'm not saying Punk or obviously Miz are bad promos, just that Kennedy could surprise you if he had some exciting material with a bit of underlying realism to channel and work with.

Like your description of Kennedy's promos fits 90% of Miz's promos to a t I feel. And most of Punk's non "shoot" promos could be belittled in a similar way imo
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I watched Kennedy a lot in TNA and I "liked" him but I never compared him to Punk in my mind. Like to me Punk was a lot better on the mic and this is someone who watched raw week to week when Punk was champion and before, and if it isn't TNA and not WWE where am I to go for Kennedy material
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I'm not belittling Kennedy's promos at all, I liked the guy a fair bit. He was really good at the role he played, I just don't think the worked shoot style thing would suit him very well
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Uh, Punk had some really damn good promos that had nothing to do with shooting, just check out his SES stuff.
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Panthera posted...

Punk was good at being a fun over the top smarmy faction leader wrestler dude, I don't think he was nearly good enough at more serious, down to earth promos to sound particularly plausible

This is a statement I would say applies to Punk until really given the ball (and frankly after once the bloom wore off the rose a bit)

Again that's not to say Punk is bad, just to say that material matters a lot more than people give it credit for for guys who aren't in the absolute top tier of mic work. I'm talking your Rocks Austins Flairs and Hogans.

Guys who have that supernatural charisma don't need good material. People who are just good but not great though? They can give the illusion of being great with the right writing. That's CM Punk.
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TheRock1525 posted...

Uh, Punk had some really damn good promos that had nothing to do with shooting, just check out his SES stuff.

He had one good promo for the SES and repeated it about 25 times by the time it ran its course
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He ripped Big Show a new asshole and it was great.
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For the record, had Kennedy been made Vince's son, I think he would have fulfilled that role very well.
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Constable kennedy
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Like, Punk is absolutely one of the best talkers and it has nothing to do with his ability to shoot. It has everything to do with his delivery. He's a guy who can cut a promo that feels dead serious without resorting to shouting or ridiculous phrases or anything that is standard to pro wrestling.

I don't think anyone replaces Punk because every shoot promo since then hasn't been as good. Not to say they're not great themselves, like the Miz's shoot on Bryan on Talking Smack, but Punk got his point across forcefully and purposefully without having to shout at a camera and make a look like he's constipated. All the while adding bits of levity to really sell it, and not feeling like an actor acting out a scene.
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ScareChan posted...

Constable kennedy

Konstable Ken Kennedy.
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Short list of present or former WWE guys from the past 15 years or so that come to mind that I think get a lot less props on the mic than Punk that could have done Punk's spiel about as well

John Cena
Daniel Bryan
Edge
Christian
Mark Henry
Samoa Joe
Randy Orton
EC3
William Regal
Ken Kennedy
Miz
MVP
Brian Kendrick
Bubba Ray Dudley
Kurt Angle
Goldust
Chris Jericho
Kevin Owens
Austin Aries
Sting

It's not a massive list or anything, and it's possible I'm forgetting some, and there is room for debate on many of these, but I don't think much of any of these guys are ever remotely close to the discussion of best promo of all time like Punk is to many

Like to me he's pretty firmly in the second more garden variety tier than the top tier.
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Add Kyle O'Reilly to that list.
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TheRock1525 posted...

ScareChan posted...

Constable kennedy

Konstable Ken Kennedy.

*tugs collar*

*mimes throat cut*
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A-Block final time

Rooting for Tanahashi
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Well that's another 5 star match for those two.
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Man. 2018 and we're still talking about freaking Ken Kennedy's WWE potential.
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I just pulled the mans name out of a hat too.
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that could have done Punk's spiel about as well

Mark Henry
Randy Orton

Seek help.
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I get your main drift but

SmartMuffin posted...

that could have done Punk's spiel about as well

Mark Henry
Randy Orton

Seek help.

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I disagree with the main drift too. Virtually everyone on that list is either a long-time WWE guy who had already enjoyed great success and thus would have no credibility delivering a "pipe-bomb" style promo (Goldust, really?) OR an indie guy who came around AFTER Punk had already paved the way for that type of character to exist.

I'm no Punk fanboy by any means, but I actually think he doesn't get enough credit for his run, which literally changed the company up to and including its entire talent and business model. Without Punk there IS no Kevin Owens. There IS no Austin Aries. There IS no AJ Styles. Not on WWE at least. He quite literally paved the way for "Indie star" to be a legit WWE gimmick (or at least to contribute to one).

I could be convinced that Daniel Bryan and his run would have still happened without Punk, mainly because for Bryan, the main storyline was "underdog overcomes the odds" and his being an Indie star was helpful, but not really required to tell the particular story they wanted to tell. And MAYBE Bryan being successful would have still helped pave the way for some future guys... but I really doubt it.

Most of Punk's WWE career took place during an era where the product was pure shit and where there was virtually nobody on the roster who could both talk and wrestle, which he could. His matches AND his angles were always like, Top 3 in any given card/month/whatever. He was consistently entertaining in a time when the product was consistently forgettable. And parlayed that into what might have been THE biggest non-WM match/angle in the last 20 years or so (since Invasion maybe?). Don't sit there and tell me "Mark Henry could have done that too." It's laughable.
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Orton's promos these past few Smackdowns have been better than most of Punk's. He can cut good promos when he's not doing the Triple H style

Mark Henry was also good the few times he had good material. Hall of Pain run had a lot of solid stuff in it. I GOT A LOT LEFT IN THE TANK way better than most Punk promos
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I haven't watched in a while so I can't comment on Orton's recent work.

But Mark Henry's promos were completely and categorically of a different style than what Punk was doing.

My point isn't to say "Punk is a better talker than Mark Henry" (which he is, but whatever). It's that if you think "Mark Henry could have done what Punk did" you're crazy. What Punk did required a specific character and a specific skillset that would have disqualified any long-time WWE "legend" type guy.
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Also Mark Henry was in WWE for like 25 years and had like 1 year where he was a decent promo.

Punk was "decent" his whole career and was really fucking good for like 2 or so.
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Man I loved all of Punks SES promos a lot better than anything anyone besides Joe is doing on the mic these days

Such fucking passion
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To do it exactly like Punk did sure

I think you lack creativity if you think the only way to make a worked shoot gimmick work is to have a whiny indie guy go on about it though
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Actually come to think of it, the best promo work this year was probably Cena continually failing to call out Undertaker and getting progressively more upset about it
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Jakyl25 posted...

Man I loved all of Punks SES promos a lot better than anything anyone besides Joe is doing on the mic these days

Such fucking passion

And SES was an incredibly lame and stale gimmick that he made work through his own above-average mic skills alone.
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I would argue most guys are being given sub SES tier material to work with nowadays. Like I called it repetitive, and it was, but it was a good unique promo and gimmick the first time. Which is more than you can say for most guys right now who are just being given some combination of no promo time, phony stuff to promote something, or are just hideous.

Though I'd take Orton's current character's promos over the SES for sure at minimum (as well as Joe's)
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Remember that one rumble whose single most entertaining moment was Punk sitting in the ring cutting a straight edge promo?
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SmartMuffin posted...

I haven't watched in a while so I can't comment on Orton's recent work.

I haven't either but I have seen enough of his non-recent work to respond with a

Ha! Ha!
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Speaking of Cena, I think his break up with Nikki Bella broke him so much that all he does on Twitter every day is post a motivational quote about honesty and trust and stuff.
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The wife and I watched Blockers yesterday. Cena was hilarious.
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^ Film got an unfair rap. It's a sex comedy, it stars Cena.... TF were people expecting?

Feh. Enjoyed it and got *my* laughs.
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So Gargano/Ciampa will be an LMS, by all accounts.
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So ummm...

https://twitter.com/BulletClubItal/status/1027962684128550913

yikes.
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SmartMuffin posted...

Remember that one rumble whose single most entertaining moment was Punk sitting in the ring cutting a straight edge promo?

This was the Rumble that got me back into wrestling after about eight years.
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Orton's got that dick in hand energy
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Hypothetically: Ibushi beats Omega and Sabre beats Naito.

Who advances? It's Ibushi, right?
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