Current Events > Neil Gaiman on Game of Thrones fans and entitlement issues.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Look, this may not be palatable, Gareth, and I keep trying to come up with a better way to put it, but the simplicity of things, at least from my perspective is this:

George R.R. Martin is not your bitch.

This is a useful thing to know, perhaps a useful thing to point out when you find yourself thinking that possibly George is, indeed, your bitch, and should be out there typing what you want to read right now.

Good read:

http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2009/05/entitlement-issues.html
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But he is a bitch regardless.
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Eh it was a good read but I disagree with a lot of what he's saying.

It's absolutely G.R.R.M's choice to cater to the new fans who only watched the show but it still makes him a bitch to turn his back on those who made him famous enough to get approached to do a show in the first place.

I personally like his wild card series a lot but I would prefer WoW and a real conclusion.

His choice though, if he chooses to not finish the series and thus throw away his chance to go down as someone who wrote a real masterpiece then that's his choice. Regardless of how good the first five were if he doesn't finish the story then it means fuck all in the long term IMO.
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I think that still comes from a sense of entitlement to be honest. He doesn't owe it to anyone to finish the books in any particular way. He wrote a story, people liked it, that should be the end of it. Expecting him to meet expectations they dreamed up themselves based on what they want is not fair.
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It's... entitled to expect him to finish what he started? I don't understand this viewpoint at all.
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pinky0926 posted...

He doesn't owe it to anyone to finish the books in any particular way.

Nobody (in this particular topic anyway) is asking him to complete the stories in a specific way. Only that he completes it.

I mean he can do whatever he wants, but why would you start a story you have no intent on finishing?

>2009

time flies when an entire eight season show based on your work starts and ends before you can finish another book
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UnholyMudcrab posted...

It's... entitled to expect him to finish what he started? I don't understand this viewpoint at all.

It's entitled to get shitty because he's doing things with his life other than being chained to a keyboard finishing the particular book series you want to read as quickly as possible.

Not saying this is your attitude but that is certainly the attitude of the fan in the original article and the attitude of many GoT fans.
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pinky0926 posted...

I think that still comes from a sense of entitlement to be honest. He doesn't owe it to anyone to finish the books in any particular way. He wrote a story, people liked it, that should be the end of it. Expecting him to meet expectations they dreamed up themselves based on what they want is not fair.

Don't get me wrong I'm firmly in the camp that doesnt expect it to be completed. Most GoT fans are believe their entitled for sure.

My position is more that he'd be insane not to try and finish it just because it's his magnum opus. If he chooses not to though that's fine with me. I have enough fun with the fan theories to be able to just pretend it finished in one of many ways in a worst case scenario.
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Ill always respect the novelty of reading that first book and being shocked by some of the main plot developments- stuff Id never seen in a novel or anywhere else really.

I love how, in a day and age where Venoms director says Who knows? Haha when talking about a big plot hole in his film, GRRM has managed to weave complex plots and interesting mysteries into such a behemoth story. I hope he finishes it but Im glad we got what we have so far either way.
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His publisher paid him for the book, almost 10 years ago. Is it too much to expect someone to do the work you paid them to do? That does no make us entitled bitches.
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As a fan of a series that got dropped by publishers three times after 29 out of 32 books and then the author up and died, I can understand the disappointment, but perspective is kind of key.
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This applies to crappy fandoms in general, tbh.
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Hahaha Gayman
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008Zulu posted...

His publisher paid him for the book, almost 10 years ago. Is it too much to expect someone to do the work you paid them to do? That does no make us entitled bitches.

Did you pay him for the book or did his publisher

Like what is your contract with GRRM that warrants expecting him to work on your timeline. Because you paid $10 for his last book?
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pinky0926 posted...

008Zulu posted...

His publisher paid him for the book, almost 10 years ago. Is it too much to expect someone to do the work you paid them to do? That does no make us entitled bitches.

Did you pay him for the book or did his publisher

Like what is your contract with GRRM that warrants expecting him to work on your timeline. Because you paid $10 for his last book?

This is dumb and this is a dumb topic

Menardii posted...

This is dumb and this is a dumb topic

What's dumb about it. It's absolutely ridiculous to think you're owed something here because GRRM struck up a business contract with a publishing company that has absolutely nothing to do with you. You didn't pay jack shit.

Do you carry this attitude to other things in life? Like do you get mad when your favourite cafe isn't open on a sunday because you bought a cappucino from them two months ago and leave an angry yelp review about their shocking service
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UnholyMudcrab posted...

It's... entitled to expect him to finish what he started? I don't understand this viewpoint at all.

To give up a year+ of your time on earth to do something you maybe don't want to do anymore just to please other people? **** that, he doesn't owe that to anyone.

pinky0926 posted...

008Zulu posted...

His publisher paid him for the book, almost 10 years ago. Is it too much to expect someone to do the work you paid them to do? That does no make us entitled bitches.

Did you pay him for the book or did his publisher

Like what is your contract with GRRM that warrants expecting him to work on your timeline. Because you paid $10 for his last book?

His publisher? I kinda already said that. And no publisher would accept a 10 year timeline for a single book.
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pinky0926 posted...

Menardii posted...

This is dumb and this is a dumb topic

What's dumb about it. It's absolutely ridiculous to think you're owed something here because GRRM struck up a business contract with a publishing company that has absolutely nothing to do with you. You didn't pay jack shit.

Do you carry this attitude to other things in life? Like do you get mad when your favourite cafe isn't open on a sunday because you bought a cappucino from them two months ago and leave an angry yelp review about their shocking service

I don't think I'm owed anything but this is a dumb topic. You're not even arguing anything you're just calling people entitled for no reason.

008Zulu posted...

His publisher? I kinda already said that. And no publisher would accept a 10 year timeline for a single book.

The argument makes it sound like because the publisher struck a deal *you* were owed something, but that's not really how anything here works.

Here's what strikes me about a lot of GoT fans. Because they bought the previous books and enjoyed them, they can be angry at a man for not creating art as quickly as they personally want him to. Maybe GoT fans should commission GRRM and then they'd have an actual reason to be upset.
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Menardii posted...

pinky0926 posted...

Menardii posted...

This is dumb and this is a dumb topic

What's dumb about it. It's absolutely ridiculous to think you're owed something here because GRRM struck up a business contract with a publishing company that has absolutely nothing to do with you. You didn't pay jack shit.

Do you carry this attitude to other things in life? Like do you get mad when your favourite cafe isn't open on a sunday because you bought a cappucino from them two months ago and leave an angry yelp review about their shocking service

I don't think I'm owed anything but this is a dumb topic. You're not even arguing anything you're just calling people entitled for no reason.

I'm calling people entitled for believing they're due something from GRRM, that's...the entire topic.
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pinky0926 posted...

I'm calling people entitled for believing they're due something from GRRM, that's...the entire topic.

And I'm calling this a dumb thread because you just seem to be trolling instead of trying to have actual debate. You normally have decent topics but this is just fucking dumb.

Menardii posted...

pinky0926 posted...

I'm calling people entitled for believing they're due something from GRRM, that's...the entire topic.

And I'm calling this a dumb thread because you just seem to be trolling instead of trying to have actual debate. You normally have decent topics but this is just fucking dumb.

What's to debate, Gaiman is completely right and I'm just enjoying that he's calling people out on it.
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Menardii posted...

pinky0926 posted...

I'm calling people entitled for believing they're due something from GRRM, that's...the entire topic.

And I'm calling this a dumb thread because you just seem to be trolling instead of trying to have actual debate. You normally have decent topics but this is just fucking dumb.

The hurt ego is strong with this one.

He's calling people entitled because they're acting entitled.

Where is he "trolling"?

Is it too early for this kind of melty?
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pinky0926 posted...

Menardii posted...

pinky0926 posted...

I'm calling people entitled for believing they're due something from GRRM, that's...the entire topic.

And I'm calling this a dumb thread because you just seem to be trolling instead of trying to have actual debate. You normally have decent topics but this is just fucking dumb.

What's to debate, Gaiman is completely right and I'm just enjoying that he's calling people out on it.

Except he's not right. Some might have entitlement issues, but expecting someone to finish a series that they started isn't entitlement. Fuck out of here with that bullshit.

Ah, this is my favorite!

A subset of people get called out for bad behavior.

"How DARE you call these people out! Not that I identify with them or anything! I just feel like defending their bad behavior for NO REASON definitely not because I'm secretly concerned I might be part of that bad behavior, no sir!"
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Menardii posted...

Except he's not right. Some might have entitlement issues, but expecting someone to finish a series that they started isn't entitlement. Fuck out of here with that bullshit.

"It would be nice if GRRM finished the books because I really enjoy them but I appreciate he's busy" is a reasonable thing to say.

"I've become increasingly frustrated with Martin's lack of communication on the next novel's publication date. In fact, it's almost as though he is doing everything in his power to avoid working on his latest novel. " is a bitch ass thing to say coming from someone who thinks they're owed something when they absolutely are not.

Seriously that's the kind of thing I would read in an email from a client who pays our company a shitload of money every month to say.

But hey, why would Neil Gaiman - one of the most important and prolific authors of the modern fantasy era - know anything about what it's like to be a writer
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https://www.scifinow.co.uk/blog/brent-weeks-opinion-column-george-rr-martin-is-not-your-bitch/
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pinky0926 posted...

Menardii posted...

This is dumb and this is a dumb topic

What's dumb about it. It's absolutely ridiculous to think you're owed something here because GRRM struck up a business contract with a publishing company that has absolutely nothing to do with you. You didn't pay jack shit.

Do you carry this attitude to other things in life? Like do you get mad when your favourite cafe isn't open on a sunday because you bought a cappucino from them two months ago and leave an angry yelp review about their shocking service

>it's ridiculous to think you're owed something here because of this guy's business contract with a publishing company

yeah people don't pay jack shit... until he completes his contract and the publishing company releases the book. are you being sarcastic or are you just stupid? i literally can't tell when I come here anymore how many users are woefully ignorant or blissfully stupid.
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I haven't read this article but I generally do find a lot of the commentary about him quite distasteful. Like people constantly talking about him dying or whatever. Like yeah I guess id like a new book but I can do...other things in the meantime.
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Ulyanyx posted...

>it's ridiculous to think you're owed something here because of this guy's business contract with a publishing company

yeah people don't pay jack shit... until he completes his contract and the publishing company releases the book. are you being sarcastic or are you just stupid? i literally can't tell when I come here anymore how many users are woefully ignorant or blissfully stupid.

What is your contract with him? Have you paid for it yet? You want something sure, and you'll pay for it when it comes out. That's the extent of it.

You're not owed anything. His publishing company might be, although I'm not aware of the exact terms of the contract obviously.
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pinky0926 posted...

I'm not aware of the exact terms of the contract obviously.

Most authors can negotiate up to 9 months between releases, if they are successful enough. Most good authors can do 2, sometimes 3 books a year. The publisher may wish to stagger the release in the case of a successful franchise, because of book tours and such. But in the case of Martin, a few years back there were rumours his publisher was going to ask for a return on the advance they paid him for the book he has been working on all this time.
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Nah, fuck Neil Gaiman

AlisLandale posted...

https://www.scifinow.co.uk/blog/brent-weeks-opinion-column-george-rr-martin-is-not-your-bitch/

This is a much better take
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Maybe he should focus on the main characters and skip adding information that doesnt matter. Theres so much unnecessary dialogue that only serves for world building.

I dont care about a characters uncles friends sister-in-laws grandfather who once s*** himself after a night of heavy drinking. If it doesnt factor into a main characters motivation then dont bother including it.
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I feel sorry for all the saps who started reading this guys stuff
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I stopped being a fan of his long ago. And saying he's been "busy" lol? That's bs and you know it. He's lazy, nothing much more to it, at least own up to that much.

Feels good being a fan of Sanderson who actually cares about his work and his fans.
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If you have authors who write a lot like Stephen King, you also have authors who write a little like GRRM. That's just the distribution. But his excuses are just that. I mean he is lazy and doesn't want to finish and in my opinion (and I read all the books from the day they released) that's fine. He can do whatever he wants, but he's still objectively lazy.
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ssjevot posted...

If you have authors who write a lot like Stephen King, you also have authors who write a little like GRRM. That's just the distribution. But his excuses are just that. I mean he is lazy and doesn't want to finish and in my opinion (and I read all the books from the day they released) that's fine. He can do whatever he wants, but he's still objectively lazy.

I don't think he's lazy. He's been writing other books and spin offs this whole time. He's just trying to milk ASoIaF for all it's worth. Which I can't really blame him for, but as a fan of his books, I would like him to finish sooner rather than later.
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Part of it is him being lazy, but the larger problem is that he wrote himself into a knot he cant figure out how to get out of. I dont think he is capable of fixing it
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Like imaging having this project as complex as GoT that youve been working on over two decades, before you realize that you wrote yourself into a knot and you cant fix it. It would be demoralizing, especially if you were a perfectionist and lazy to begin with
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I read the first five books and loved them, and was even eager for the sixth one for a few years, but... at this point I don't really care if it ever comes out or not. I'm completely happy with the TV show (well, mostly), and I don't want to reward his slowness with even more money.
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MorningRose posted...

I read the first five books and loved them, and was even eager for the sixth one for a few years, but... at this point I don't really care if it ever comes out or not. I'm completely happy with the TV show (well, mostly), and I don't want to reward his slowness with even more money.

This except I'm not thrilled with the show's past couple seasons.

He is just taking too long.. we're closing in on 8 years since the last book.
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He sold his books and the show on the pretense that theyd come out in a timely fashion or at all. And now hes swimming in adoration for a hypothetical product. The quality of his work drew the fans, but hed have nothing without them. And he wouldnt have anywhere as many fans if he just came out and said he was never finishing.

Is he ultimately beholden to fulfilling his implied obligations? Of course not, but I dont think this is as black and white as youre putting it. Hes been rightfully criticized.
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I remember when he got butthurt that Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire won an award over Storm of Swords, saying, "Eat your heart out, Rowling. Maybe you have billions of dollars and my Hugo, but you don't have readers like these."

https://web.archive.org/web/20051214072721/http://www.bwbfanclub.com/fr_grrm.php
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Leanaunfurled posted...

I stopped being a fan of his long ago. And saying he's been "busy" lol? That's bs and you know it. He's lazy, nothing much more to it, at least own up to that much.

I think the fact that he regularly consults fan groups to keep up with which characters are doing what, says that he himself no longer cares.
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pinky0926 posted...

Menardii posted...

This is dumb and this is a dumb topic

What's dumb about it. It's absolutely ridiculous to think you're owed something here because GRRM struck up a business contract with a publishing company that has absolutely nothing to do with you. You didn't pay jack shit.

Do you carry this attitude to other things in life? Like do you get mad when your favourite cafe isn't open on a sunday because you bought a cappucino from them two months ago and leave an angry yelp review about their shocking service

No but youd be disappointed, and youd probably hope to see the cafe open again at some point.
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Imagine writing a series that your readers enjoy, they adore it, they tell all their friends about it, your fanbase grows with tons of discussion, speculation, fan art, a community coming together. Now imagine people asking for closure as in, when is the next installment coming out, and you avoid the topic completely. Tell me, how is that entitlement? You have your fans invested their time, their money, essentially part of their lives into your project. Is it too much to give a sense of closure by being open with them?
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