Board 8 > Danganronpa Mafia: Chapter 2: Part 2

(+) Yeah! (+)

Nah, Puns, I plan on talking for another 3 hours and then going to bed voting you for the kicks.
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I dont see anything wrong with delaying a vote, Heck he lives in the same timezone as me... Sort of.
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Sheep007 posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Sheep007 posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

OK. What if I told you I had reasons to suspect Han is the one, then?

Okay, I also have reasons to suspect that the others could be the one, and I haven't seen compelling enough evidence to strongly point to Han over the others (or at the very least over SBell).

No, as in

What if I had a strong reason to think he is? Strong enough to stick my neck out and suffer the consequences of things went wrong for chasing this lead? Would you consider playing ball?

I'm interested, but no dickteasing here. Would have to be something really quite compelling. Do you have it or don't you? If it is, I'd like to hear it now.

Yes. I've thought about this for a while, and I'm starting to realize John is right - this town is stagnating. We're getting killed by scum without them doing anything, and I don't like it. I was hoping to save this for when I had more conclusive evidence, but if I do, we'll have lost the game by then. It's time to flip the chessboard over and go on the offensive.

@Corrik , you asked me to claim earlier. I am not doing this because I am afraid, but because I think town needs it, and my value is already no greater than my vote anymore. You wanted to know who I am?

I am Kanzaris Kelshen, The Ultimate Tactician, One-Shot Roleblocker!

You've probably wondered why we awoke to no kills. I can't promise this is the sole reason why - but I think it's a strong indicator. During Night 1, I suspected Han and thought he was too shaky - and for that reason, I used my roleblock on him! Lo and behold, when we awoke, there were no kills! Is it possible someone else was targeted and saved, or that an unnamed power managed to defend themselves? Yes, very possible. But if so, their silence is throwing the scum for a loop, whereas mine only confuses the town. I've waited and listened to him, and I don't buy his play as the kind town Han would make. With end of day fast approaching, I want to give town enough time to think about this - but I think it's the right move to chase this lead now, before it's too late.

##Unvote
##Vote: Han

Han, I want to hear what you have to say for yourself and tell me why we had no nightkills when I blocked you. Come out and play!
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You're a one shot Roleblocker, there was no night kill, and your first move wasn't voting Han?
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Okay. Unexpected.
Sounds plausible though.
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Is there nobody else here or am I actually crazy for thinking waiting almost the entire day to tell us that is a godawful move if it isn't bullshit
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Why go so hard for me if you have information that has more....solid footing?

Actually yeah thats a good point, Sheep.
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I'll buy it. I said Han was scum day 1 from his interaction with DYL.

##unvote:
##vote: han
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Usually I almost go crazy trying to get the extra info person lynched

Which if han is scum partially clears dyl of course

Sheep007 posted...

You're a one shot Roleblocker, there was no night kill, and your first move wasn't voting Han?

No, because I wanted to see how he'd react. Han is crafty enough to make adjustments as a player if given 48 hours to work with and spin a tale that could justify this, and a single roleblock with an almost full game is circumstantial evidence at best. But I've seen enough from him to believe that he's not playing with Town's best interests at heart and I don't think I can let this slide any longer. To emphasize, the roleblock isn't what's damning. It's that Han isn't playing like he's trying to find scum! He's only picked a single major target and then had a small slapfight with Sbell. That's not how one of the best town scumhunters plays! He's much more active and aggressive, and constantly in everyone's minds, especially when he feels we let a scum he had caught slip away. Somebody hand me the archives and I'll dig up Hearthstone Mafia quotes to prove this. He was BALLISTIC about us letting Ulti go, IIRC.
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@HanOfTheNekos

Claim or die.
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In fact

*checks*

Han wasnt even in your top 2 of most wanted lynches!
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Neablis posted...

Why go so hard for me if you have information that has more....solid footing?

Because I wanted information. I wanted people talking. I wanted, in short, to form proper reads on the rest of the town and watch Han interact before I felt sure. I've been sick as a dog and suffering from allergies, and I did not trust my reads while half-dead and stupid from lack of sleep. But now I've had time to recover and think and I can't see any other way this plays out other than Han being the one who sent the nightkill and got blocked by my intervention.
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So you're trying to say everything up until now was just fake?
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htaeD posted...

In fact

*checks*

Han wasnt even in your top 2 of most wanted lynches!

Of course not. You think I'd foreshadow something like this and give someone I know is a better player than me a chance to see through it and start making preparations? As if! Part of being the Ultimate Tactician is knowing your own weaknesses and making strengths out of them. People think of me as a feeble, indecisive player, for good reasons, and I was content to work with that mental image until I'd been able to actually play the game a bit to back up my hard info with some strong reads. I'd been on good terms with Han D1, and opted to pretend to keep it that way while I really got into the swing of things. But this is the time to speak up. If I don't, fear town will walk right into a stupid mislynch, and we can't afford to do that anymore. It's time to kick things up!

(PS, somebody link me the archives, seriously. I want to dig up those Hearthstone maf quotes but don't remember the link)
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htaeD posted...

So you're trying to say everything up until now was just fake?

No. I legitimately needed to talk to people and see their reactions while I wasn't pretty much KO'd. I missed end of day last time death, because I was too fried to defend myself. When have I ever done that? Like, I'm sure you remember me talking about posting from phone at dinners and social gatherings before when EoD was incoming. I commit to mafia games and play my heart out, but I literally couldn't because my body wouldn't allow me to. Now that I've rectified that and found my place in the game I don't feel scared about throwing out this bombshell.
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You could have been daykilled before you ever got to leave a hint though, for all we know!!
(Though I guess that really was a one-time thing?)
You didnt even engage Han.

No offense, but if this is all true, this was not a good way to go about it, IMO.
At the very least dont spring this is on us this late.
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Though I cant deny that I dont know how much this sickness affected your playstyle.
Its just that this has all the markings of a classic consequence-free scum frame-up.

Hrm. Well

Han should respond to this either way. No need to overthink this before then.
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Hell, at least tell us this before the gladiate runs out...

Also the logs are lqgfaqs

but replace q with o
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Ok, so what led to you becoming han for instance over say myself or igcd? Just feeling han would carry kill?

htaeD posted...

You could have been daykilled before you ever got to leave a hint though, for all we know!!
(Though I guess that really was a one-time thing?)
You didnt even engage Han.

No offense, but if this is all true, this was not a good way to go about it, IMO.
At the very least dont spring this is on us this late.

It was as early as I could manage. I was very, very detached from the game yesterday and couldn't really go over it the way I wanted to. I know you have to sleep soon Death, but that's partly why I came out with it now. Waiting till later would've meant leaving you unable to vote and that's something I can't roll with in this situation. I need every last bit of town activity we can muster today.

(Also let's be real, mafia is not killing me unless I say I'm power or they find out. I'm like, seventh at best on the hitlist normally because I'm not that good a player. I fel confident I would live until I was ready to make the claim for this reason.)
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Tag me when han claims
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(Its possible I am also cross because I was wasting time looking at Neablis and DYL posts instead of Han and Kanz posts)
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tragically, hearthstone was not archived

I buy this 99% from Kanz and I noticed liking his take on Han that he gave a little while ago before even claiming this action

The action is of course not all that damning on Han but I'm kind of inclined to just roll with it

Will ponder on it, still at work atm

KanzarisKelshen posted...

htaeD posted...

You could have been daykilled before you ever got to leave a hint though, for all we know!!
(Though I guess that really was a one-time thing?)
You didnt even engage Han.

No offense, but if this is all true, this was not a good way to go about it, IMO.
At the very least dont spring this is on us this late.

It was as early as I could manage. I was very, very detached from the game yesterday and couldn't really go over it the way I wanted to. I know you have to sleep soon Death, but that's partly why I came out with it now. Waiting till later would've meant leaving you unable to vote and that's something I can't roll with in this situation. I need every last bit of town activity we can muster today.

(Also let's be real, mafia is not killing me unless I say I'm power or they find out. I'm like, seventh at best on the hitlist normally because I'm not that good a player. I fel confident I would live until I was ready to make the claim for this reason.)

Fair enough to that last segment. And it would be odd for scum to gambit on this now. (Unless Neab, DYL and Sbell are all scum with you)
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Initial gut reaction is that I believe he did rb han.

Will wait on han

oh shit here I've been typing up a long post and of course big shit happens while I'm doing it
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Post it anyway

I want to see your words!
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Neablis posted...

Ok, so what led to you becoming han for instance over say myself or igcd? Just feeling han would carry kill?

Inactivity and relative impactfulness. Even accepting that Han could've been busy, the way he reacted in the wake of Chris' death just didn't track. He did some mild pressuring of Chris, going 'night guys, I expect a DYL claim by tomorrow' and then had no reaction when he showed up again. He's not acting like someone who just saw one of their teammates get daykilled out of the blue with no warning. No stepping up the pressure, no super bulldogging, no yelling at the town for being dumbasses and not following him when he strongly feels he's right...Han is my homie. I know him really well as a person, I know he's a go-getter when he's invested in something, and he isn't here when there's every reason for him to be. We needed a leader and instead durdled around with no focus. At the start of day 2, we STILL needed direction and this is what he comes back with...

I came in ready to yell at people but there's already been a good deal of negativity so I'll try to keep things pleasant.

I know this is partially my fault for not being around for end of day, but allow me to give the game-by-game reminder: Listen. To. People. Who. Know. What. They. Are. Talking. About.

DYL is dying today.

Corrik looked a little worse because the one thing he did day 1 was push a mislynch, but I believe his claim here and it lines up with Town Corrik.

Puns at end of day looked really bad at first but then it became apparent that he wasnt caught up and just firing in the dark.

I know I'm right about DYL, and I really dont like ho SBell has been buddying up to me ever since I said he was likely Scum (after the whole voting me thing).

##vote: DYL

When I get to a desktop, I can quote the posts, but DYL's posts at end of day and beginning of day are basically claiming Scum, so can we please not do the thing where worse players try to defend someone I tell you is Scum.

...And then nothing. No more posts for hours. I'm telling you, this is not how town Han plays. He takes charge, he pushes, pushes and pushes and he never changes course if his gut's telling him he caught someone. This is a put-on. And combined with how night turned out, it gives me strong reasons to believe he's scum and we should hang him.
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*some mild pressuring of DYL, you get the idea
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so here's the post from Slam that initially sold me on him being scum

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

Does dyl claim not sit well with everyone else. He had a fake claim.. then comes back with another weird claim? If DYL is "town" I really dont like this fake claim thing beacuse that's kind of the scum game and the fake role would totally be on the safe list. Could this be 2 fake claims and DYL be scum

yeah, scum typically has a safe list but bringing it up here is fucking weird

This is a game where we're not playing as specific characters, we're playing as literally anything. It's barely a step below CYOF mafia. Maybe there's a safelist, but with literally anything to choose from why would you assume, unprompted, that a fake role had to be on a safe list? I could claim Ultimate Deep-Water Fish and it would make as much sense as anything and you wouldn't immediately assume I was relying on a safe list unless you've already used a safelist and have it on your mind

Add on, this argument is bad. Fake claiming has never been exclusively a scum thing, and jumping to "this is a 2nd fake claim" is bizarre logic

that's was enough to sell me on him tbh, but I figured I'd pressure him and see what happens.

One scum tell on newish players is to vote them and see if they vote you back in self-defense, rather than because they think you're scum. Sure enough:

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

Are you scum then John Bob?

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

Sounds like you're scum to me Mr bobby John. No reasoning behind a vote is the scummiest thing ever.

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

##vote:Johnbob

then we get this

TheSultanOfSlam posted...
Sheep007 posted...

But John Bob we had no night kill. Dont you think that would perfectly fit in with the claim?!What does this mean?
If I was targeted it would be avoided atleast that's how my PM made it sound
Oh, you mean your claim? You think you were shot last night?
Its possible.

Again, what a weird assumption to make. What kind of mafia would choose to shoot the claimed RB/BP the first night? This sounds like an inexperienced mafia poorly trying to give an excuse.
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So I looked back at FFnut's original claim

FFnut posted...

And speak of the devil, I got my clarification. Okay, claiming now.

I am essentially a one-time reflexive night phase omniblocker. Essentially, if I get targeted by anything at night, I automatically block everything targeted at me at night. This includes the mafia kill.

It only works the first time I get targeted at night, and I have no control over it. So nobody target me at night. No doctor, no cop, no whatever else we have. I will automatically block everything the first night something is used in me at night.

I have confirmed that this only works at night, so if we have someone who can confirm me during the day (as with DTG's claimed power) I won't block it and will keep my power active.

This also means that I have to be targeted on two separate nights to actually die, minus a lynch or something like a Dayvig.

Since I have no actual control over my power, it doesn't help me to keep it secret, and I'd rather avoid screwing with the town powers when I can use it to draw scum to have to hit me twice instead.

DoomTheGyarados read this, and decide if having a confirmed town who can't die Night 1 is something you'd like to have. If it is, scan me.

Now this mostly got viewed as Town right off the back, and honestly, I'm not seeing it.

1. Claiming this right off the bat is a clever way of stopping any town power from scanning you. It means as long as you don't horribly rock the boat, you're safe from getting scanned by cops, which is extremely useful if you're scum power.
2. Why immediately mention the mafia kill? Nobody asked that. Why would town immediately tell the mafia "don't bother shooting me, it won't work"?
3. If he is mafia, then trying to get Chris to scan him makes sense. If Chris scans him and he's mafia, Chris wouldn't actually die until night, which would mean mafia would get a regular night kill AND a dead Chris AND that day's lynch. It wouldn't be that hard to argue FFNut as town still. But then Chris specifically said that he wasn't going to use his power on FFNut, and with no guarantee who Chris WOULD scan, it becomes safer to kill him with scum power?

I wouldn't really say it's nearly enough to say FFNut is scum at that point, but I think it's plausible and I think Slam appears ridiculously scummy on top of it
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[3] DYL - (Kanz), IGCD, Han, (Sultan), (Puns), Neab
[3] Obellisk - Puns, DYL, FD
[2] Han - Kanz, Corrik
[1] Neab - (Puns), (Corrik), (Kanz), Doop
[1] Sultan - Johnbobb
[1] Johnbobb - Sultan, (Puns), (Doopliss)
[0] Puns - (FD)
[0] IGCD - (Kanz), (Johnbobb)
[0] Corrik - (IGCD)
[0] Sheep - (Kanz)
[0] Kanz - (Corrik)

DAY ENDS AT 10PM TODAY
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Kanz, why would you use an RB, (that's one shot, may I add) N1 when you yourself said you have a very low risk of dying? Far more optimal to use it later, and you don't strike me as the type of player to spam abilities, although I may have read your personality wrong. In fact, I don't understand why you'd not jump onto other people who you seemed to be so angry at earlier at night when picking a RB if you were going to do it. Especially one against Han of all people.

I just don't understand the thought process behind it. I get you're saying you were looking for reads, but it doesn't sound right to me to spend the whole day looking for reads and ignoring the very important info you have until late on.
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Without knowing FFNut I can't say much about that claim, John.

With the assumption he's an average player or unused to weird roles, the claim makes perfect sense. Additionally, the whole thing with Chris' role makes sense. He wouldn't know how Chris' role works regardless of alignment. As scum, asking "gambler" to target you is a ballsy as all hell move especially for a new player. Chris said the effect would be instant, not that he would die at night, iirc.
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Sheep007 posted...

Kanz, why would you use an RB, (that's one shot, may I add) N1 when you yourself said you have a very low risk of dying? Far more optimal to use it later, and you don't strike me as the type of player to spam abilities, although I may have read your personality wrong. In fact, I don't understand why you'd not jump onto other people who you seemed to be so angry at earlier at night when picking a RB if you were going to do it. Especially one against Han of all people.

I just don't understand the thought process behind it. I get you're saying you were looking for reads, but it doesn't sound right to me to spend the whole day looking for reads and ignoring the very important info you have until late on.

Because Night 1 is the time when assassin kills are deployed, Sheep. It's when town gets absolutely hammered. For town, N1 is their worst time because they only have reads and circumstantial information, but for scum, N1 is the time to feast because they have a target rich environment and full powers. We'd lost two people already - I thought, and I still DO think this, that we couldn't afford to take a shellacking and lose another two if scum had an extra shot left. So I thought about it, I thought about it, I thought about it...and I realized that there was one player whose responses just didn't jive with me, and that was odd because I had no strong reads on anyone else due to sickness. I was angry at everyone and pissed off that I'd almost gotten specialed and grateful to puns but I didn't really know what to think after that debacle of a d1...until I thought of Han. And I've learned that when you have a strong gut response, you have to follow it. So I did, and maybe, just maybe, it paid off. And now here we are. I promise you - I'm not a great player, but I'm an old-ass player and I've been in a lot of situations and games. I know Han and this just isn't how he does things when he's town. Fuck, he was aggro when he was a dead mason and speaking through me once! Why would he vanish when we're all reeling and uncertain? No, this isn't him. It's not him at all. This is not a roleblock read. This is a player read. I talked earlier about whether you had any reads you'd stake your life on, IIRC. This is that for me. If I fuck up, lynch me tomorrow because I will be responsible for having wasted town's time - but I know this is gonna go somewhere. So please, please trust me.
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I have a few more thoughts on Kanz but I'm gonna wait for Han to get in here before presenting them because I don't feel like giving either side any additional arguments
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Sup folks. Did my civic duty and voted today.

Alright so.... 5 and a half hours? Gonna run some isos about people.
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Sheep007 posted...

especially for a new player

I feel like you mentioned that before, but he's not a new player. He said D1 that it was his first mafia game on B8 but that he was experienced in mafia. I willing to bet he's quite a bit better at this than most B8 newbies

Sheep007 posted...

Chris said the effect would be instant, not that he would die at night, iirc.

are you sure about that? I know his flavor said he'd die at night, and I could've sworn Chris mentioned that too, though I could be remembering that wrong
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Seriously dude - put the vote down on Han even if you don't believe me so he has a reason to show up. Put pressure on him. You can take it off later, but we need to get him in here and see what he has to say for himself and that won't happen if he's not the lynch leader. Do me a solid here, sheep. C'mon.
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Kanz is mega town and my tiebreaker meta was good

^5 me

##Unvote
##vote: Han

I will lend my immortal blade to this cause

The problem I have with the player read is that Han has been like this in every one of the recent games, and been Town in all of them. Doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't be like that as scum but I don't think it's a scumtell, at least not to me.
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Not willing to vote Han based on the RB alone when there's probably more protection than a one-shot RB and a one-shot BP, but that combined with his previous behavior shoots him right into JB/neab tier for me. In fact,

##Unvote
##Vote: Han

If he's as good a scum hunter as everyone tells me, even if he flips Town we know to go for DYL.
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Sheep007 posted...

The problem I have with the player read is that Han has been like this in every one of the recent games, and been Town in all of them. Doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't be like that as scum but I don't think it's a scumtell, at least not to me.

How long have you known him? Because we go back what, five years? More? And not just by sharing the same board either. It's something I feel because I know the player beyond the mafia game. I know what Han is like when he's hyped about something and really buys into it. He's relentless (in a good way, dude chases his goals). And doesn't he sound relentless in his posts? But then you look at them in aggregate and all that hype amounts to nothing. It's a cover. Seriously gimme like, two hours and I'll be home and collect all his posts if that's what it takes. You'll see what I mean about him not going hamhocks. There's smoke but there's no fire.
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Johnbobb posted...

Sheep007 posted...

especially for a new player

I feel like you mentioned that before, but he's not a new player. He said D1 that it was his first mafia game on B8 but that he was experienced in mafia. I willing to bet he's quite a bit better at this than most B8 newbies

You'd be surprised how different the meta is in various communities.
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Doopliss_Power posted...

Johnbobb posted...

Sheep007 posted...

especially for a new player

I feel like you mentioned that before, but he's not a new player. He said D1 that it was his first mafia game on B8 but that he was experienced in mafia. I willing to bet he's quite a bit better at this than most B8 newbies

You'd be surprised how different the meta is in various communities.

maybe, but literally anyone else on the scum team could just as easily be like "Hey, we need to kill Chris however possible"
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I'd obviously like a more solid argument if possible, Kanz. Will be waiting. Guess I'll be staying up a little again. I have a little more to say as I mentioned before, so expect about 5 posts of text walls once Han turns up for a while. I'm only withholding it/my vote because giving my thoughts away would change how this is played out too much and I think it'll be very important.
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I am thinking a lot more than my posts suggest right now. My clunky brain is working overtime and needs oiling.
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