Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 224: The Congressional Contempt for Political Buggery

(+) Yeah! (+)

Dang Jakyl beat me to my point like ten minutes ago :(

https://twitter.com/MarkDice/status/1126892476634001408

Of course this is what Mark Dice dislikes Shapiro about. Well, actually I'm pretty sure he hates Shapiro for another reason entirely, but this is at least the one he'll vocalize in public spaces.
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Whoops went too far down Dice's time line. Saw this along the way though:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cubs-fan-gesture-team-bans-fan-white-power-symbol/

Now he very much could've been doing that, but I am curious if people outside of Chicago ever play the circle game as I'm realizing I do not know how generalized that is (since it isn't something I've done since high school).
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Hopefully all reporters covering Trumps tariffs point out that theyre paid by American consumers and not the Chinese (and also that a trade deficit of X means you bought X more than you sold, not that you gave away X like Trump constantly lies about)
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https://www.vox.com/2019/5/10/18524172/donald-trump-commander-in-cheat-rick-reilly

Heres one: While Trump was meeting with Kim [Jong Un] in Singapore, a club championship was held at Trump International, a course Trump built near Mar-a-Lago in Florida for his rich people friends to join. So anyway, a month later, Trumps there at his golf course, with the Secret Service and the SWAT team guys and all that stuff. And he sees Ted Virtue, one of the financiers behind the movie Green Book.

Virtue who wouldnt speak to me directly, but the story was reported by Golf.com and I confirmed it through two other members of the club was playing with his kid, who I think is 10 or 11 years old. He [Trump] sees Ted on the 9th hole and decides to drive his cart over there. He tells Ted: Congrats on winning the club championship, but you didnt really win it because I was out of town.

Ted tries to laugh it off, but Trump is dead serious. Trump says, Were going to play these last six holes for the championship. And Teds like, Im playing with my son, but thanks anyway. But Trump says, No, your son can play too. So they end up playing.

They get to a hole with a big pond on it. Both Ted and his son hit the ball on the green, and Trump hits his in the water. By the time they get to the hole, Trump is lining up the kids ball. Only now its his ball and the caddie has switched it. The kids like, Daddy, thats my ball.

But Trumps caddie goes, No, this is the presidents ball; your ball went in the water. Ted and his son look at each other confused, not sure if this is really happening. And Trumps caddie says, This is the presidents ball. I dont know what to tell you.

Trump makes that putt, wins one up, and declares himself the club champion.

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Suprak the Stud posted...

Whoops went too far down Dice's time line. Saw this along the way though:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cubs-fan-gesture-team-bans-fan-white-power-symbol/

Now he very much could've been doing that, but I am curious if people outside of Chicago ever play the circle game as I'm realizing I do not know how generalized that is (since it isn't something I've done since high school).

Ive never heard of anything called The Circle Game
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The goal was to get one of your friends to look at your hand while making a circle with your thumb and pointer finger. It had to be held below your waist (so you couldn't just shove it in your friends face). If they looked you got a free hit in on their shoulder. The other fingers were typically extended back so it looked essentially like an upside down "ok" gesture.

It was a very dumb game.

It was very popular with middle school boys in the Chicagoland area during the early to mid 2000s. I guess I have no clue if it is still popular or not or if it is something that was generalized or if it was just localized idiocy.

(That being said I dunno if that is really what the fan was doing here since it is pretty clearly ABOVE waist level in clear violation of the rules. But the fact it was upside down is immediately where my head went to and I instinctively wanted to protect my shoulder.)
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Jakyl25 posted...

Of all the people you could have gotten that clip from, you got it from Mark Dice

Oh, I didn't know he was bad. I tend to not try to learn about very pendant with a twitter account.

Suprak the Stud posted...

Dang Jakyl beat me to my point like ten minutes ago :(

https://twitter.com/MarkDice/status/1126892476634001408

Of course this is what Mark Dice dislikes Shapiro about. Well, actually I'm pretty sure he hates Shapiro for another reason entirely, but this is at least the one he'll vocalize in public spaces.

And I see why he is bad. Among the things to dislike Ben about, down playing assault for political points is a no no. Lesson learned.
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https://deadspin.com/cubs-fan-using-ok-hand-gesture-behind-doug-glanville-1834615036

The hateful valence of that gesture is an open question, and while its well-established that it means Okay or is part of a game where you and your buddies punch each other, 4Chan trolls started a successful campaign to introduce it as a supposed symbol of white power. The goal was to make media types flip out over a meaningless gesture and then look dumb when everyone told them to stop demonizing people because the gestures merely part of the circle game. Kenney said the club wouldnt buy the circle game excuse because of the specifics of the fans performance:

Apparently 4chan's intended use of this was to confuse people into thinking people were just playing the circle game. How very funny and cool of them. >_>

And yes I am just a little extra annoyed because it inadvertently worked on me exactly like they thought it would.
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circle game is still played on the internet all the time
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How would you even play circle game on the internet? The entire point of the game was to punch your friends.
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Ive literally never heard circle game in my life, where I come from we called it ballgazer.

And its really fucking annoying that somehow people confused this, because the white power symbol was the right-side up ok , not inverted like ballgazer/circle game.
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Suprak the Stud posted...

Apparently 4chan's intended use of this was to confuse people into thinking people were just playing the circle game. How very funny and cool of them. >_>

And yes I am just a little extra annoyed because it inadvertently worked on me exactly like they thought it would.

How is this any different from Pepe the Frog? 4chan's "ironic" racist shitposting just eventually gets actually adopted by racists.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Ive literally never heard circle game in my life, where I come from we called it ballgazer.

And its really fucking annoying that somehow people confused this, because the white power symbol was the right-side up ok , not inverted like ballgazer/circle game.

This is the most confusing part. It doesn't even for a "WP" unless you are holding your hand right side up. The circle game (or uh ball gazer which sounds even less fun than what I played) always had to be upside down on account of how the game was played.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

How is this any different from Pepe the Frog? 4chan's "ironic" racist shitposting just eventually gets actually adopted by racists.

I mean it is a fair point and I fully understand this. I know symbols take on different meaning especially depending on who uses them and why. But I was less grumpy about handing over a stupid cartoon frog than I am ceding the literal "ok" symbol to a group of cross eyed, smelly, basement dwelling racists because they say that's their thing now.
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Suprak the Stud posted...

handing over a stupid cartoon frog than I am ceding the literal "ok" symbol to a group of cross eyed, smelly, basement dwelling racists because they say that's their thing now.

Sorry racists stole it. They aren't going to give it back they are a cancer.

Suprak the Stud posted...

How would you even play circle game on the internet? The entire point of the game was to punch your friends.

you don't need a game to punch your friends
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oh and if you are wondering, the NZ Shooter apparently also used the circle game gesture...so if you think its something that has been ruined in good fun that line got crossed a long time ago.
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Suprak the Stud posted...

The goal was to get one of your friends to look at your hand while making a circle with your thumb and pointer finger. It had to be held below your waist (so you couldn't just shove it in your friends face). If they looked you got a free hit in on their shoulder. The other fingers were typically extended back so it looked essentially like an upside down "ok" gesture.

It was a very dumb game.

It was very popular with middle school boys in the Chicagoland area during the early to mid 2000s. I guess I have no clue if it is still popular or not or if it is something that was generalized or if it was just localized idiocy.

(That being said I dunno if that is really what the fan was doing here since it is pretty clearly ABOVE waist level in clear violation of the rules. But the fact it was upside down is immediately where my head went to and I instinctively wanted to protect my shoulder.)

Yeah, we were doing this in and after college like 4 years ago.

Still use the ok symbol today a lot. But I guess I should change that...
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Context matters. Im not giving those pieces of shit a thing.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Context matters. Im not giving those pieces of shit a thing.

Context doesn't matter anymore. People have lost the ability to tell the difference.

LordoftheMorons posted...

Hopefully all reporters covering Trumps tariffs point out that theyre paid by American consumers and not the Chinese (and also that a trade deficit of X means you bought X more than you sold, not that you gave away X like Trump constantly lies about)

Not true. American consumers will be paying a portion of the costs but so will China. American manufacturers will benefit and so will the US government. But the biggest winners will be countries like Vietnam, Bangladesh, Malaysia, etc that will find it easier to compete with China on price.
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You wanna lose against Trump?

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/joe-biden-illegal-immigration-mexico-fence_n_5cd70515e4b0796a95dcddd4

Thats how you lose against Trump.
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What does anyone even like about Biden? Like what are the things he wants to do that people are on board with? He is indistinguishable from a republican in a blue state. I don't fucking understand voters at all.

Welcome to the US, where democrats are republicans, republicans are monsters, and the ideals I was raised on and were told are american just do not exist

Nrrr posted...

What does anyone even like about Biden? Like what are the things he wants to do that people are on board with? He is indistinguishable from a republican in a blue state. I don't fucking understand voters at all.

Centrist Democrats looooove Republicans. That's why they spend all their time trying to win their favor.
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The problem is, that for all the talk of how Democrats need to stop ignoring the left wing and youth voters, the fact of the matter is that the left wing and youth voters need to stop ignoring that perhaps there are more centrist, older voters that don't like how dramatic of a swing the liberal wing of the party is going for.
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Inviso posted...

The problem is, that for all the talk of how Democrats need to stop ignoring the left wing and youth voters, the fact of the matter is that the left wing and youth voters need to stop ignoring that perhaps there are more centrist, older voters that don't like how dramatic of a swing the liberal wing of the party is going for.

Literally nobody has been ignoring this, Inviso.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Inviso posted...

The problem is, that for all the talk of how Democrats need to stop ignoring the left wing and youth voters, the fact of the matter is that the left wing and youth voters need to stop ignoring that perhaps there are more centrist, older voters that don't like how dramatic of a swing the liberal wing of the party is going for.

Literally nobody has been ignoring this, Inviso.

It really feels like you have when you constantly question why Biden is so popular, or slag off O'Rourke or Buttigieg and make comments about how you don't know if you'll vote if they win the nomination.
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Inviso posted...

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Inviso posted...

The problem is, that for all the talk of how Democrats need to stop ignoring the left wing and youth voters, the fact of the matter is that the left wing and youth voters need to stop ignoring that perhaps there are more centrist, older voters that don't like how dramatic of a swing the liberal wing of the party is going for.

Literally nobody has been ignoring this, Inviso.

It really feels like you have when you constantly question why Biden is so popular, or slag off O'Rourke or Buttigieg and make comments about how you don't know if you'll vote if they win the nomination.

I made literally one comment about how Id have to think about Biden because hes so trash, and yes, I dont care for him or the other two youve mentioned, but Ive also said Id vote for them all.

You dont seem to (want to) understand why hes so awful, but I can tell you Bernies weaknesses.

Its rich for you to attack me for this, like you dont do the same for the Bernie Wing? Im asking for a more self-aware Democratic Party so I can feel good about voting against actual evil, is that so wrong?
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As long as we only have two parties and both of them are right wing parties you are going to have to deal with people on the left getting so fed up they refuse to vote, sorry. If you don't like it, gotta fight to change the system. And guess who loves the system? Establishment centrists, the ones the system benefits. There is a bigger disparity between Bernie and Biden than between Biden and Trump.

Part of the reason Moderate Dems hate Bernie so much (and Ive seen it in this topic multiple times) is that hes an Independent who has to switch to Dem because of the nature of the two party system.

If he ran as a 3rd party, theyd call him a spoiler, but when he runs as a Dem they call him not a real Dem.

Meanwhile he pulled in millions of Dem votes in 2016 (and verifiable record-breaking crowds), and they refuse to learn from that.
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People like Biden because: name recognition, he was Obama's VP, he's a white male, and he represents a "de-escalation" of politics/"return to normalcy." Surprise most voters don't care about policy.

Now, I think his support is a bit softer than it currently polls and that it will erode as debates start but I still think he's the most likely to win because those advantages are huge, he's by far the biggest name in his "lane" (Beto ostensibly could have tried to occupy it but has joined everyone else in moving left of it. I think Booker is actually the next biggest name running in the moderate lane and... yeah.), and everyone else is vote splitting like hell (Sanders, Warren, Harris, Beto, Buttigieg are basically fighting in the same lane, of all people this board should understand LFF)

If that lane all backed one of those candidates they'd stand a good shot at winning the primary IMO, but none of them really have the incentive to drop out because it's like a game of Prisoner's Dilemma they've deadlocked in.

accelerationism accelerating right into a biden presidency i won't deny i find that idea kinda funny in a bleak humor way (because i have consistently stated that accelerationism is an absolutely terrible idea that demonstrates a severe lack of empathy for all the people hurt and abandoned in its pursuit)

Nrrr posted...

There is a bigger disparity between Bernie and Biden than between Biden and Trump.

now this right here is some bs

I'm totally against Biden winning the nomination and think he's awful on a wide variety of issues and will be frustrated as hell when/if he wins the nomination but this just demonstrates a blindness to what Trump and his administration have done and are continuing to do.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Part of the reason Moderate Dems hate Bernie so much (and Ive seen it in this topic multiple times)

i think it's more of the above statement and those like it
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Biden is my personal least-favorite choice for the Democratic nomination. But if he gets the nom, I'm fucking voting for him without question, because Trump is awful, and there is not a single Republican who deserves to be in power until the party as a whole cleans up their fucking act. No matter how bad Biden is, he is preferable to every single aspect of the Republican party. Period.

And I'm not attacking the Bernie wing. At all. Hell, I did that "who do you side with" quiz and got Tulsi Freaking Gabbard as my top choice. I like a lot of the ideas the Bernie wing brings to the party. I just question the implementation sometimes, and the speed at which that wing wants to enact major changes to the country as a whole. Both my parents are Democrats and have voted Democratic throughout my lifetime. Yet I've have conversations with them in recent months, and I've actually defended more left-wing ideals like MFA and Elizabeth Warren's student loan forgiveness, but both of them have grown increasingly-frustrated with just how radicalized they feel the party has gotten. And with some of the statements I've seen from vocal, left-wing supporters online, I can't really deny that their concerns are valid.
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xp1337 posted...

People like Biden because: name recognition, he was Obama's VP, he's a white male, and he represents a "de-escalation" of politics/"return to normalcy." Surprise most voters don't care about policy.

yeah, hence why I don't understand voters. I wasn't saying I don't get that these are the reasons, I just literally cannot understand thinking a single one of these things are something that matters compared to policy at all.

Nrrr posted...

There is a bigger disparity between Bernie and Biden than between Biden and Trump.

now this right here is some bs

I'm totally against Biden winning the nomination and think he's awful on a wide variety of issues and will be frustrated as hell when/if he wins the nomination but this just demonstrates a blindness to what Trump and his administration have done and are continuing to do.

I don't think I am the one being blind here. Trump is not some blip on the radar, he is just the GOP with the mask off. Biden is basically the GOP with the mask on. SephG would be totally okay with Biden being president for a reason!

Inviso posted...

Yet I've have conversations with them in recent months, and I've actually defended more left-wing ideals like MFA and Elizabeth Warren's student loan forgiveness, but both of them have grown increasingly-frustrated with just how radicalized they feel the party has gotten. And with some of the statements I've seen from vocal, left-wing supporters online, I can't really deny that their concerns are valid.

You can and should deny it.

If you think the Left Dems are too radicalized, the rest of the modern world must be absolutely terrifying to you.

And this brings me to MY main problem with Centrists (whether you are or not, your actions are the same): You seem to get so mad at me for voicing my problems with Dems like Biden or Beto, but have literally no problem saying your parents concerns about some ephemeral radical Left are valid.
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if your parents think its scary that people now want everyone to get healthcare and get paid a living wage, then their concerns are pretty stupid.

Nrrr posted...

I don't think I am the one being blind here. Trump is not some blip on the radar, he is just the GOP with the mask off. Biden is basically the GOP with the mask on. SephG would be totally okay with Biden being president for a reason!

Biden is vastly different solely on the judges he'd nominate. Hell, even if the Senate stays R and refuses to confirm anyone that's an improvement over the packing they're doing now after having blocked Obama's nominations so much that Trump has been able to transform the judiciary.

But if you think Biden is going to be advancing policies of putting kids in cages, or starting trade wars, or driving our alliances in Europe away from us, or try to kill the ACA, or implement a transgender ban in the military, or any number of additional things I could name... I dunno what to tell you.

Yes, he's not in support of the actual "Medicare for All" legislation but I'd say support for a public option is a hell of a lot closer to that then to refusing to do your goddamn constitutional responsibility and not only refuse to defend the ACA in court, but agree that the entire thing should be thrown out. If you want to say Biden would be disappointing in that he'd almost certainly not push for any substantial progressive legislation... you're right! But I expect he'd sign whatever Congress could get to him (which is why the Senate in particular in huge, if it stays R no one will get anything significant done) but that's a far cry from the **** Trump and the GOP are doing with their power.
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I have many concerns with Joe Biden. He doesn't support Medicare For All. I don't like how he defends Dick Cheney, and stumps for Fred Upton.

And I question why our party should bow to those who'd prefer Trump to Bernie Sanders or Warren. If they don't prefer 'far left' to 'far right' then they're not any sort of people I'd trust.
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One of Biden's (many) problems is his defense/diagnosis of the Republican party. I do think it stems ultimately from privilege where most of the harm the GOP is and has been doing wouldn't affect him so he fails to see that Trump is a symptom and logical progression of the Republican party, not some outlier and cause of its current state.

Certainly I don't think he's equipped to deal with the very real problems posed by the GOP because he can't even recognize or identify them. Unfortunately, that's also true for a large section of the electorate, including many Democrats so the problem is much bigger than Biden.
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I wonder if there are any polls of how many Dems really think Dick Cheney/Republicans are "bad" or "evil" people. I'm guessing it's a very small minority.
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

I wonder if there are any polls of how many Dems really think Dick Cheney/Republicans are "bad" or "evil" people. I'm guessing it's a very small minority.

Whatever helps you sleep at night, dude
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The similarity between Biden and Trump is like that between Hillary and Trump - people will vote for the Republican/non politician over the career Democrat. Why vote for Republican-lite when you can vote Republican?
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https://www.axios.com/poll-democrats-and-republicans-hate-each-other-racist-ignorant-evil-99ae7afc-5a51-42be-8ee2-3959e43ce320.html

Hmm according to this, the vast majority of Dems do not think Republicans are evil. But a majority believe they are bigots.

One can infer then that Dems do not think bigotry is evil. What a morally bankrupt party!
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I guess the major reason why I get more annoyed by you, Tony (and don't get me wrong...I wouldn't bother arguing with my family if I didn't get annoyed by their world views), is because there doesn't seem like there is ANYTHING you find preferable about the Republican party compared to the Democrats. As xp's post points out, even if you dislike Biden (or Hillary in 2016), there are a TON of reasons why having a Democrat in the White House is superior to literally any Republican. At least with centrists, as much as it pisses me off, the Republican platform benefits them in some way (as Cyclo condescendingly points out, the status quo doesn't negatively affect THEM), so at least by questioning the direction the party is going, they're not actively sabotaging their own best interests.
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There are a lot of people who saw ZERO difference between Hillary and Trump. Those same people will see ZERO difference between Biden and Trump.
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

I wonder if there are any polls of how many Dems really think Dick Cheney/Republicans are "bad" or "evil" people. I'm guessing it's a very small minority.

Democrats think Republicans as a group are good, but any individual Republican is bad. Republicans think Democrats as a group are bad, but individual Democrats can be good.
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Inviso posted...

I guess the major reason why I get more annoyed by you, Tony (and don't get me wrong...I wouldn't bother arguing with my family if I didn't get annoyed by their world views), is because there doesn't seem like there is ANYTHING you find preferable about the Republican party compared to the Democrats. As xp's post points out, even if you dislike Biden (or Hillary in 2016), there are a TON of reasons why having a Democrat in the White House is superior to literally any Republican. At least with centrists, as much as it pisses me off, the Republican platform benefits them in some way (as Cyclo condescendingly points out, the status quo doesn't negatively affect THEM), so at least by questioning the direction the party is going, they're not actively sabotaging their own best interests.

I'm pretty sure Tony has never argued what you're saying.

The two main arguments are:
1. Biden will not advance things in a meaningful/beneficial way
2. Biden stands a greater chance of not winning the general because he's not a particularly inspiring candidate outside of not being Trump
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I mean, if Biden absolutely thwomps the field, including Bernie, can it really be argued that he's less inspiring?
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TheRock1525 posted...

I mean, if Biden absolutely thwomps the field, including Bernie, can it really be argued that he's less inspiring?

When he loses to Trump, yes.
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"I can't get past Joe Biden but surely I can beat an incumbant president."

This is a pretty tiring argument.
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TheRock1525 posted...

"I can't get past Joe Biden but surely I can beat an incumbant president."

This is a pretty tiring argument.

The same thing happened with Hillary. The Democratic Party absolutely will not listen to swing voters.
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