Board 8 > English Literature Mafia Topic 24: Denouement

(+) Yeah! (+)

I think you misread.

I'm saying - "here we are" .. "with you trying to lynch SBell"

not "we are with you"

I mean who would you have killed SBell over?

I wouldn't kill SBell. As scum he's a good fallguy lynch if he's not scum cause just look at him.

Ulti though? Absolutely. He's had almost no suspicion all game, is reasonably active, and has had his sights on me all game. Easy kill earlier game. Probably over dowolf so quickly (a kill I thought was SK) or scarechan (still don't get this kill. Dude had a tough spot to inherit and was offbase on all his initial reads IIRC)
---

Lopen posted...

I wouldn't kill SBell. As scum he's a good fallguy lynch if he's not scum cause just look at him.

OK...so when you included SBell in your statement saying it would be laughable for scum you to be in this situation?

Clearly you had enough fall guys to get here without needing to lynch SBell.

I mean, yes, there have been a lot of dumb lynches this game being honest. MZero and Lea are glaring ones to me. Not that I would have done better as far as not lynching town goes but yeah.

But like yeah both Ulti and SBell being here is the key. One is manageable two is basically autolose for town if both are alive at endgame with me. That's why I tried to martyr lynch you yesterday. Only reason I backed off that is because I became less convinced you were the right pick and didn't want throwing the game to be on my shoulders in a situation where I wasn't dead sure
---

I think, reflecting on my play this game, I am the exact guy scum wants alive at endgame.
---

Obellisk posted...

I think, reflecting on my play this game, I am the exact guy scum wants alive at endgame.

Please be more insightful

Lopen posted...

But like yeah both Ulti and SBell being here is the key. One is manageable two is basically autolose for town if both are alive at endgame with me. That's why I tried to martyr lynch you yesterday.

Sorry, are we talking about you being scum or you being town here? Because it seems like you just switched mid-conversation.

turbopuns3 posted...

Lopen what was your reasoning again for lynching sheep over cam on the sheep/cam day

I think you missed this one btw

They're the same conversation, really. One I just control night kills and can argue I wouldn't put myself in the situation.
---

turbopuns3 posted...

Lopen what was your reasoning again for lynching sheep over cam on the sheep/cam day

Cam had a much better voting record all things considered, and hadn't really done much during the game to make me suspect him. The only real reason I suspected Cam at all was due to association with Sheep cause it seemed like a plausible move for two scum to do, those flavor claims.

As I said during the day I voted him.
---

Lopen posted...

As I said during the day I voted him.

This shit gets under my skin so bad lol yes I am aware you stated it at that point in time I am asking for convenience of not having to stop what I'm doing to look it up

Lopen posted...

They're the same conversation, really. One I just control night kills and can argue I wouldn't put myself in the situation.

Uh.

OK so your original point was - paraphrased - "to think I would allow this specific endgame scenario if I was scum would be laughable"

right? You asserted that this situation would be laughable IF you were scum.

Then you just transitioned into ...

But like yeah both Ulti and SBell being here is the key.

Is the key? Key to...what? The key to why this would be laughable if you were scum, is the only answer I can see.

So if you're talking about how this situation is the key to me realizing you aren't scum...

One is manageable two is basically autolose for town if both are alive at endgame with me.

Why are you in the next breath talking from a perspective of you being town? Or you are...bragging that since you are scum it is unwinnable for town?

It's not "the same conversation". You just seemingly completely switched mindsets in a way that is jarring and doesn't make sense to me.

Like it's not as simple as "two scum making those flavor claims as a gambit" either

The big thing that made Cam suspicious was him being so thorough about combing through day 1 and somehow missing Hb made a Harry Potter claim. If Sheep is scum and Cam are scum, it makes sense he doesn't address it immediately there, as Cam is possibly wondering what claim to make at the time, and even if he's consider claiming his actual scum flavor as a play, doesn't necessarily want to draw undue attention to his scum buddy right away
---

The key to why it'd be laughable as scum for me to be in this situation, since I don't path kills in a way where this endgame scenario is likely to happen. There were definitely some kills that as a scum team member I could have prioritized Ulti over. I am autolynch here without a lot of work, that much is obvious to me. I did go into why, I as town, considered being a martyr, because I think I'm getting lynched as either alignment with this configuration by default. It's relevant.

If you're saying I made some sort of slip and it was my masterplan as scum for Ulti and SBell being alive right now and it's autolose for town, "you got me."
---

Not saying it's an "ah-ha!" slip. Just saying I often find the way you structure your thoughts to be confusing which in turn makes you difficult to trust.

Like, last day I was describing a hypothetical where I was the last scum, and you interjected with "you're not considering if Cam flipped scum"

and I'm like well that would be a different situation

and you're like "not really. they're basically the same"

I just don't get it sometimes lol

Main reason I transitioned into it is to say me thinking this is a difficult situation for me at endgame is not some sorta new defense I'm pulling out of my ass and to some extent I played into it yesterday, just got cold feet at the end because of a lack in conviction in my read.

I've been saying this for days now.

turbopuns3 posted...

Like, last day I was describing a hypothetical where I was the last scum, and you interjected with "you're not considering if Cam flipped scum"

and I'm like well that would be a different situation

and you're like "not really. they're basically the same"

Reason I called them basically the same, IIRC, is because if Cam is scum, not wanting him to "be a distraction" makes no sense. If he's scum, him being "a distraction" is not "a distraction" it's town lynching the right guy. Him being lynched the day you lynched him or the day after are basically the same in terms of net value/loss for town, if he's scum.

Like for me your vote post was phrased in a way like you knew Cam was going to flip town and you made the lynch anyway so town wouldn't make a mislynch on him the next day.
---

Well for what it's worth...maybe there wasn't a flavor godfather plus a regular godfather but Cam/Sheep was town/town which got Ulti/SBell off autopilot a day sooner, in theory. Which is a plus to some extent.

And I lynched sheep anyway V_V

I will say Cam being lynched is the only reason I knew yesterday was 1 scum left, for whatever that's worth.

Sheep -> Sbell would've been my preferred pick but I doubt Sheep -> Sbell is something that could've been easily argued with Cam and myself on the board as at that point there are too many holes for 1 scum remaining to make ironclad sense and SBell was double cleared (which, as I said, he played in a way to draw it)-- so maybe there really was no way out. I don't know. But I still think if you're openly thinking about the game and not just playing the percentages, we can maybe humor it with you, me and Cam lynching him.

Anyway.
---

I'm looking over Ben's reveal day and you didn't really push for his lynch, contrary to your whole "what if I actually succeeded at that? that would have been so scummy!" shtick earlier.

Like, while he was grandstanding you were calling it a gambit after every breath but once it was all out in the open you suggested either lynching Cam or Lea. And still cast suspicion on Ben but you weren't really whipping up votes from anyone else.

You could have done all that safely knowing there was no way in hell people were actually going to lynch the cop claim with multiple guilty scans.

In fact you actually...suggested we mass claim because you thought ben was lying?

I thought Harry Potter was the real cop yes-- it seemed like a reasonably flavor role to have a strong ability in game, and Hb's instant disbelief fed into that suspicion. Figured mass claim would make him reveal that. I also thought Lea was possibly some sort of town power fakeclaiming Doom and could help us resolve some of the power in the game.

As for why I didn't push for it, I mean, it's self resolving to some extent, and people weren't going for it. I have limits in what I can reasonably expected to push for, but if you're going to say it did me any favors doing that or that I in any way needed, as scum, to make some sort of desperate gambit play on the cop claim because I was suspected, that's just misrepresenting what happened and the game state.
---

Also I think you're understating how much I pushed for it

I remember posting a lot about "why wouldn't Cop reveal scans on day 3, or just push for a Death lynch at the very least"
---

Not saying you needed to. More just it's within your range to do it on whimsy

As godfather who bussed a scummate I'd just coast on that the whole game and play low risk moves the rest as I have an obv town look, have no fear of scans, and don't have any reason to rock the boat.

Honestly if Ulti was being honest with his research he'd look at FFT Mafia where I did that as Usurper to win easily. My play this game has been nothing like that one.
---

Lolo + Corrik + Ben + Cam as mafia solves the game nicely

Like you really thought scum claimed protection and counterclaimed another protection then faked cop too, with the only claimed town being a flavor cop?

Sbell, Pez, Lopen, according to my CLEVER BREADCRUMBS

......................

turbopuns3 posted...

Lolo + Corrik + Ben + Cam as mafia solves the game nicely

Like you really thought scum claimed protection and counterclaimed another protection then faked cop too, with the only claimed town being a flavor cop?

Yes. I wanted mass claim because I thought Lea was protection and Hb was cop. It just seemed to fit their play/claims to me at the time. Town power fakeclaiming vanilla when forced to claim on day 1 isn't weird. Ben himself did it, after all.
---

Lmfao

That lmfao was not a reply to you

That's Tom alright

UltimaterializerX posted...

The case on Stu is hilariously easy and we all know what it is: no presence all game, a ton of people have called him scum, and when he's here there has been a lot of self-defeating nonsense. That's pretty much been his entire play this game.

Also I think the actual suspicious part of SBell's play is not actually "obvious" and boils down to this

If his feelings today are genuine, how does town SBell not lynch me yesterday
How does town SBell waffle so much on me between his feelings on me between yesterday and today, if they're genuine and not just trying to have a plausible way to play into my martyr gambit
How does town SBell legitimately doubt 5tarscream, then consider him all good once he scans him, when realistically he should've removed all doubts with the Tom scan or the Puns scan-- he faked suspicion to bait a scan, period

The self defeating stuff, bad town can do that. The inconsistencies are not bad town, they're scummy.
---

Who's first, I'm waiting

You should same time your thoughts and humor ensues when someone accidentally hammers.
---

turbopuns3 posted...

Sbell, Pez, Lopen, according to my CLEVER BREADCRUMBS

Which scum role do you think shot Scare night 1

The Backup Redirector?

The poisoner?

The book-reader?

Or....

UltimaterializerX posted...

I'm waiting to hear from Stu before I make a decision. I would like him to explain why he didn't just vote for you yesterday.

Because I gave puns control and he said we lynch sheep over Lopen.
---

I'm don't think godfather sends a kill night 1 if that's what you're implying. Seems like in a game where you're not sure a tracker or watcher exists you'd avoid that. Poisoner probably did it because if he's tracked he's done anyway.
---

Lopen posted...

I'm don't think godfather sends a kill night 1 if that's what you're implying. Seems like in a game where you're not sure a tracker or watcher exists you'd avoid that. Poisoner probably did it because if he's tracked he's done anyway.

So the extra death night 2 came from....? Where? The godfather vig? And they just never used the poison?

Obellisk posted...

I gave puns control

"why" is a perfectly valid question here

Plenty of setups let the guy who sends the kill can also do his night action. FFVII mafia I was simultaneously getting roleblocked + scum sending night kill repeatedly, with just Reno the roleblocker alive.

I think in a setup where the scumteam is so condensed with power it would make sense to allow that to be done. But *shrug
---

The B8 convention has always been that doubling up only is allowed when every single mafia member is already using some other ability. I don't think I've ever seen a host treat it any differently

turbopuns3 posted...

Obellisk posted...

I gave puns control

"why" is a perfectly valid question here

Because I trust puns to be town more than any remaining player. And town puns saved the day last game.
---