Board 8 > Transgender Cyclist Wins Female Cycling World Championship

(+) Yeah! (+)

You say unlikely but China just got caught cheating at the military games. Like who actually even gives a fuck about the military games to even bother cheating. And at orienteering of all things, never underestimate the desire to win in some people.

Make an Open Division and a Female Division. All transgender athletes either way compete in the Open Division. Females can choose between Open and Female. This solves this issue pretty much. Obviously Women as a whole are being put at a detriment to be inclusive to a small minority that biologically is not female. You can't harm 99% to cater to 1% of society when the 1% doesn't even naturally belong.

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Its statements like this that prove you actually dont understand what transgender is.

5tarscream posted...

Its statements like this that prove you actually dont understand what transgender is.

It is statements like this that prove you actually don't understand what transgender is.

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Corrik7 posted...

Make an Open Division and a Female Division. All transgender athletes either way compete in the Open Division. Females can choose between Open and Female.

If you're going to have two divisions anyways, why not have the open league be the default, and the women who don't want trans women competing have their own league? Also, you have to rename them so that it's more obvious what they are. "Open division" = "Women's division" and your "Female division" = "Cis-Women only division."

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

If you're going to have two divisions anyways, why not have the open league be the default, and the women who don't want trans women competing have their own league? Also, you have to rename them so that it's more obvious what they are. "Open division" = "Women's division" and your "Female division" = "Cis-Women only division."

Men would compete in the open division.

Anyone is in the Open. Females can compete in the female only league if they wish to in order to have a fair playing field versus other females.

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Corrik7 posted...

Men would compete in the open division.

Anyone is in the Open. Females can compete in the female only league if they wish to in order to have a fair playing field versus other females.

In my scenario you could have 4 leagues if you wanted, 5 with an Open league.

Men's Division
Women's Division
Open Division

And then anyone who objects to trans athletes on the basis of a "fair playing field" goes into:

Cis-men Division
Cis-women Division

Sound good?

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

In my scenario you could have 4 leagues if you wanted, 5 with an Open league.

Men's Division
Women's Division
Open Division

And then anyone who objects to trans athletes on the basis of a "fair playing field" goes into:

Cis-men Division
Cis-women Division

Sound good?

I don't think you could support sports with that model. What are you gonna do when most choose the "cis" leagues and the other 3 leagues are relatively abandoned?

That's why I gravitate towards my model.

2 leagues only.

1. Open
2. Female

That's it.

Anyone can be in open. Only females can be in female if they choose not to be in open.

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Corrik7 posted...

I don't think you could support sports with that model. What are you gonna do when most choose the "cis" leagues and the other 3 leagues are relatively abandoned?

You just put the other ones on ESPN8 "the Ocho" or something.

And who knows, we'd have to implement it to see which ones are actually more popular.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

You just put the other ones on ESPN8 "the Ocho" or something.

And who knows, we'd have to implement it to see which ones are actually more popular.

The problem with that is that you aren't considering this isn't just a professional thing you are talking about, but it has to make sense from grade school up.

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Corrik7 posted...

The problem with that is that you aren't considering this isn't just a professional thing you are talking about, but it has to make sense from grade school up.

Oh, good point.

Well, for grade schools it's most cost-effective to only have the Open League. BUT since we want to maximize representation while minimizing costs, you instead just want the Men's League and Women's League and cut the Open and two Cis-only leagues.

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I feel like having an Open and a Cis Women might work

not if you call it "females" and exclude trans women though >_>

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Tom Bombadil posted...

I feel like having an Open and a Cis Women might work

not if you call it "females" and exclude trans women though >_>

Female is biological sex. Literally what do you think cis women means.

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so then if they get the surgery and the hormones they're free to qualify as female?

to answer your question though: cis means identifying as their birth gender

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Tom Bombadil posted...

so then if they get the surgery and the hormones they're free to qualify as female?

to answer your question though: cis means identifying as their birth gender

Yes. And Female is your biological sex. Which is the same as identifying as your birth gender.

And obviously no to the first part. You don't change your sex by doing hormones and surgery's.

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There's surgery to remove all the y chromosomes in your body?

I'll be completely honest, I'm a little ignorant as to the definition of sex as opposed to gender. I thought gender was generally self defined and fluid, while as sex is literally based on your genes

But I'm not 100% confident
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Oh, good point.

Well, for grade schools it's most cost-effective to only have the Open League. BUT since we want to maximize representation while minimizing costs, you instead just want the Men's League and Women's League and cut the Open and two Cis-only leagues.

The point of women's sports is to level the playing field for females. Obviously if going by costs and such then only men's sports would exist. Or just sports would exist and females would never be as to compete.

Thus, Open and Female makes the most sense to be inclusive of transgender people.

Though I think it is perfectly acceptable to have just Men's and Women's and transgender mtf have to compete in men's and transgender ftm can't compete for using banned substances.

I have zero issue with someone having to make a decision and having to accept the consequences of said decision, being that by choosing to undergo a sex change that you may be precluded from youth sports due to your choice.

But, if we want to be inclusive then I feel the setup above is the best because it it doesn't have biological males competing against females and it doesn't have substance using females competing against females, which both obviously would be unfair to females and completely eliminate the reasons for women's sports in the first place.

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banananor posted...

There's surgery to remove all the y chromosomes in your body?

I'll be completely honest, I'm a little ignorant as to the definition of sex as opposed to gender. I thought gender was generally self defined and fluid, while as sex is literally based on your genes

But I'm not 100% confident

Sex is what you are born as biologically. Gender is what you feel you are in your mind.

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The goal of the "Open" league seems to be to exclude trans athletes altogether. Since they won't be 'good enough' to qualify in the open league, and are 'too good' to compete in the cis-women league. It's like "Hey, we TECHNICALLY allow trans-somen to join. But none are able to qualify."
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Corrik7 posted...

banananor posted...

There's surgery to remove all the y chromosomes in your body?

I'll be completely honest, I'm a little ignorant as to the definition of sex as opposed to gender. I thought gender was generally self defined and fluid, while as sex is literally based on your genes

But I'm not 100% confident

Sex is what you are born as biologically. Gender is what you feel you are in your mind.

So I can just... be whatever I want... whenever I want?
Huh
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banananor posted...

There's surgery to remove all the y chromosomes in your body?

I'll be completely honest, I'm a little ignorant as to the definition of sex as opposed to gender. I thought gender was generally self defined and fluid, while as sex is literally based on your genes

But I'm not 100% confident

Uh yeah but it's way more complicated than that. If you want to get super technical about it, the Y chromosome doesn't even contain the stuff needed for "maleness." EVERYONE has those genes. The Y chromosome doesn't even turn them on by itself, one part of it (SRY) turns on a gene everyone has (Sox9) and it goes on to turn on other genes. If ANY part of that system changes you get a different result regardless of the sex chromosome. And of course there's alternative sex chromosome variants in addition to that. Obviously the environment (ex. access to hormones) will also affect developmental processes, like it does on nearly all of genetics. And we have basically no fucking clue on the cognitive aspect.

So yeah feel free to not give a shit about chromosomes unless you want to go do a study

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Ashethan posted...

The goal of the "Open" league seems to be to exclude trans athletes altogether. Since they won't be 'good enough' to qualify in the open league, and are 'too good' to compete in the cis-women league. It's like "Hey, we TECHNICALLY allow trans-somen to join. But none are able to qualify."

Nobody is excluded in the open league. Why would they be excluded? This is literally the inclusive compromise route imo. You shouldn't be catering to the 1% at the expense of the 99%. If a transgender athlete is good enough to compete they will excel. We shouldn't be working out ways to unlevel the playing field for the 99% so that the 1% of SOLELY transgender mtf athletes can dominate females. This is only being argued in this direction because this is the only way it unfairly affects the division of sports, females. Nobody is arguing how it is unfair that transgender ftm athletes have zero chance of winning.

The fact is that transgender athletes should probably just have their own league to themselves solely. But, then it is arguably discriminatory, and the leagues wouldn't be able to support themselves at all (while also coming at the expense of men's and women's sports themselves).

Thus, it is a conundrum. You can either be unfair to 99% of women to allow the 1% a chance to compete in their nom biological divisions. Or you can give transgender athletes the chance to compete at the top level and maintain the fairness for the 99%. Why are we catering to the 1% over the 99%? This doesn't make sense as a society.

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Sirfetchd posted...

So I can just... be whatever I want... whenever I want?
Huh

Well, in theory, you are born with an opposite sex mind in a body. This would insinuate that being transgender is inborn and not fluid. However, some argue it is fluid and can be ever changing and what you identify as which would kind of contradict the born this way argument.

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Corrik7 posted...

But, if we want to be inclusive then I feel the setup above is the best because it it doesn't have biological males competing against females and it doesn't have substance using females competing against females, which both obviously would be unfair to females and completely eliminate the reasons for women's sports in the first place.

But it does. Your open league will have cis women and men competing against each other. Unless you're saying cis women are excluded and HAVE to go to the women's league, or that no woman would willingly choose to compete with men and trans people. This also includes FTM athletes, by the way, who will be using steroids (testosterone), so you have substance using men competing against non-substance using men and women.

My solution just ignores this aspect but if you do care about this thing then you're not fixing it.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

But it does. Your open league will have cis women and men competing against each other. Unless you're saying cis women are excluded and HAVE to go to the women's league, or that no woman would willingly choose to compete with men and trans people. This also includes FTM athletes, by the way, who will be using steroids (testosterone), so you have substance using men competing against non-substance using men and women.

My solution just ignores this aspect but if you do care about this thing then you're not fixing it.

Females can choose the open league. However, as they are even now. Most will choose to go the female league route. Women can play in the NBA and the NFL. Just none are good enough. It's not Men's Football in the NFL or men's basketball in the NBA. They are literally open leagues. The women's variants are just so they have a chance to compete.

So, yes, I believe almost all females would choose the female only league and not the open league.

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Corrik7 posted...

Females can choose the open league. However, as they are even now. Most will choose to go the female league route. Women can play in the NBA and the NFL. Just none are good enough. It's not Men's Football in the NFL or men's basketball in the NBA. They are literally open leagues. The women's variants are just so they have a chance to compete.

If it's just for competition's sake and not representation then why dont we have a bunch of leagues sorted by actual performance kind of like how boxing does weight classes?

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

If it's just for competition's sake and not representation then why dont we have a bunch of leagues sorted by actual performance kind of like how boxing does weight classes?

You would be killing grade school sports yet again and in many sports killing them completely.

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There's an idea let's just stop having sports

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

banananor posted...

There's surgery to remove all the y chromosomes in your body?

I'll be completely honest, I'm a little ignorant as to the definition of sex as opposed to gender. I thought gender was generally self defined and fluid, while as sex is literally based on your genes

But I'm not 100% confident

Uh yeah but it's way more complicated than that. If you want to get super technical about it, the Y chromosome doesn't even contain the stuff needed for "maleness." EVERYONE has those genes. The Y chromosome doesn't even turn them on by itself, one part of it (SRY) turns on a gene everyone has (Sox9) and it goes on to turn on other genes. If ANY part of that system changes you get a different result regardless of the sex chromosome. And of course there's alternative sex chromosome variants in addition to that. Obviously the environment (ex. access to hormones) will also affect developmental processes, like it does on nearly all of genetics. And we have basically no fucking clue on the cognitive aspect.

So yeah feel free to not give a shit about chromosomes unless you want to go do a study

I literally said I was ignorant in the post, not sure why you needed to be so aggressive
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Tom Bombadil posted...

There's an idea let's just stop having sports

So sports should be killed for everyone the 99% for the 1%. Yeah, there is a thought.

And the 1% is actually probably closer to .1% than 1% also.

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Corrik7 posted...

Tom Bombadil posted...

There's an idea let's just stop having sports

So sports should be killed for everyone the 99% for the 1%. Yeah, there is a thought.

And the 1% is actually probably closer to .1% than 1% also.

Ya dude lay off sports they didnt so anything wrong here

banananor posted...

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

banananor posted...

There's surgery to remove all the y chromosomes in your body?

I'll be completely honest, I'm a little ignorant as to the definition of sex as opposed to gender. I thought gender was generally self defined and fluid, while as sex is literally based on your genes

But I'm not 100% confident

Uh yeah but it's way more complicated than that. If you want to get super technical about it, the Y chromosome doesn't even contain the stuff needed for "maleness." EVERYONE has those genes. The Y chromosome doesn't even turn them on by itself, one part of it (SRY) turns on a gene everyone has (Sox9) and it goes on to turn on other genes. If ANY part of that system changes you get a different result regardless of the sex chromosome. And of course there's alternative sex chromosome variants in addition to that. Obviously the environment (ex. access to hormones) will also affect developmental processes, like it does on nearly all of genetics. And we have basically no fucking clue on the cognitive aspect.

So yeah feel free to not give a shit about chromosomes unless you want to go do a study

I literally said I was ignorant in the post, not sure why you needed to be so aggressive

Well hes probably being aggressive because this is a serious issue and you NEED TO KNOW HOW HE FEELS
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That sure was a serious proposal I made

What about that part even was aggressive

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banananor posted...

I literally said I was ignorant in the post, not sure why you needed to be so aggressive

Not trying to be aggressive so I apologize. I just like talking about genetics. The "don't give a shit unless you want to do a study" was not an attack but a suggestion - I'm sure there's plenty of studies to read if you are actually curious.

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Welcome to 2019 where brains from the 1980's shout loudest.
Corrik I like you but you have literally zero idea what you're talking about. You're basically discriminating against trans people because you legitimately don't understand what it is. You're making out as if women's sport is dominated top to bottom by trans athletes and it's nonsense. Are you about to make a "it's started now and it's a slippery slope until women can't compete" argument. You're making out as if you're defending women's rights to fair competition by dismissing trans athletes. By saying you were born a man so you ahve to compete as a man is exactly why you don't understand the situation.
African distance runners should have their own league too because they're genteically superior.
Tall, fat guys should have their own league so that short skinny guys can play O-Line in football.
NBA should be didvided by height not gender. NBA 7+ league, 6.6.- 7 league. 6-6.6 league and under 6 league.
What you're saying is about as ridiculous as that. You're basically dismissing transgender as an emotion and it's infinitely deeper and more complex than that. You're ideas are at best uneducated and at worst out right discriminatory. You're making out as if every male is a better athlete than every female it's nonsense.

5tarscream posted...

Welcome to 2019 where brains from the 1980's shout loudest.
Corrik I like you but you have literally zero idea what you're talking about. You're basically discriminating against trans people because you legitimately don't understand what it is. You're making out as if women's sport is dominated top to bottom by trans athletes and it's nonsense. Are you about to make a "it's started now and it's a slippery slope until women can't compete" argument. You're making out as if you're defending women's rights to fair competition by dismissing trans athletes. By saying you were born a man so you ahve to compete as a man is exactly why you don't understand the situation.
African distance runners should have their own league too because they're genteically superior.
Tall, fat guys should have their own league so that short skinny guys can play O-Line in football.
NBA should be didvided by height not gender. NBA 7+ league, 6.6.- 7 league. 6-6.6 league and under 6 league.
What you're saying is about as ridiculous as that. You're basically dismissing transgender as an emotion and it's infinitely deeper and more complex than that. You're ideas are at best uneducated and at worst out right discriminatory. You're making out as if every male is a better athlete than every female it's nonsense.

I'm not saying you're wrong here but then if we just open the flood gates so to speak we would also be eliminating things like the WNBA since if we let men and women share a league 98% of the women are out of a job
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I'm not sure what flood gates you mean? Are you saying if mtf athletes compete with women then you should let men compete with women? That wasn't my argument.
Though now you mention it isn't a women's only league sexist in it's existance? If we're truly championing equality then that should work both ways.

Djungelurban posted...

LOLIAmAnAlt posted...

Djungelurban posted...

car

Danica was gifted her win in 2008.
Drag racing tho.

Regardless of how she won, or even whether she won, she certainly did compete in car racing with men. And she's hardly alone...

Every time I have tried to type out a response to this, I wound up writing paragraphs and paragraphs only to delete everything lol

Basically
Women in racing is awesome. I have a few favorites that I've rooted for over the years and wish they had received the funding Patrick got. I was stoked when Pippa made the 500 this year while Alonso failed to qualify.
But if you were to take the top drivers in the world and put them into a league together, you would not have any women in that league.
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Corrik7 posted...

Tom Bombadil posted...

There's an idea let's just stop having sports

So sports should be killed for everyone the 99% for the 1%. Yeah, there is a thought.

And the 1% is actually probably closer to .1% than 1% also.

Corrik can we screenshot this picture so the next time you complain about people calling you dumb you can look at this post and be like "oh yeah, shrug"
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MawiIe posted...

Corrik can we screenshot this picture so the next time you complain about people calling you dumb you can look at this post and be like "oh yeah, shrug"

What? Can you make some sense? You really suck at the arrogant condescending passive aggression. Maybe try just talking like a normal person.

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