Board 8 > Transgender Cyclist Wins Female Cycling World Championship

(+) Yeah! (+)

On Sunday, McKinnon tweeted I have yet to meet a real champion who has a problem with trans women. Real champions want stronger competition. If you win because bigotry got your competition banned youre a loser.

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/transgender-cyclist-wins-female-cycling-world-championship-claims-only-objections-come-from-losers/


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Sirfetchd posted...

On Sunday, McKinnon tweeted I have yet to meet a real champion who has a problem with trans women. Real champions want stronger competition. If you win because bigotry got your competition banned youre a loser.

so, why not let men compete
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SantaRPidgey posted...

Sirfetchd posted...

On Sunday, McKinnon tweeted I have yet to meet a real champion who has a problem with trans women. Real champions want stronger competition. If you win because bigotry got your competition banned youre a loser.

so, why not let men compete

I wonder if the men would win

You notice it's NEVER a story when a trans athlete doesn't win? That's by design.
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Dancedreamer posted...

You notice it's NEVER a story when a trans athlete doesn't win? That's by design.

The media?
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Maybe we should just suspend the whole concept of "women's sports". I mean, the whole point of women's sport is that women has a biological physical disadvantage compared to men and in order for them to have a chance to win in most sports they compete separately. But if all women's sports are won by biological men then that disadvantage doesn't exist and thus there's no real value in women's sports anymore. Or specific "men's sports" for that matter. Have everyone just compete with each other all the time, I mean that's already the case in some sports where physical strength isn't the be all and end all, like for example in car and horse racing.

Djungelurban posted...

car

Danica was gifted her win in 2008.
Drag racing tho.
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i am opposed to male to female transgender athletes competing in female sports
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I...wow. Theres a lot wrong with that persons attitude. They probably think theyre some sort of champion for equality saying stuff like that, but it just makes them look like a cocky asshole instead. If men were allowed in for better competition, they would be the first to complain about it being unfair Id wager.

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LOLIAmAnAlt posted...

Djungelurban posted...

car

Danica was gifted her win in 2008.
Drag racing tho.

Regardless of how she won, or even whether she won, she certainly did compete in car racing with men. And she's hardly alone...

nope nuh-uh nah
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One of these days there's going to be someone just pretending to be trans that's going to win one of these things.

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pjbasis posted...

One of these days there's going to be someone just pretending to be trans that's going to win one of these things.

You do realize that most leagues have strict requirements on allowing Trans athletes to participate, right? Like... they don't just have someone show up wearing a dress and go "Sure, you can participate!"
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at least for the olympics, and probably for this too, there are requirements that a trans participant be on some serious long term hormone treatment. its not something you can easily just pretend to be unless your plan is to completely fuck up your life to maybe win a bike race.
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worth noting, this person also set a world record in qualifying for this race too.
honestly ain't fair to women's sports, males get way more unfair advantages that transitioning can't get rid of.
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How little self-awareness do you have to have to say such stupid things?
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Dancedreamer posted...

You notice it's NEVER a story when a trans athlete doesn't win? That's by design.

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Never said anything about it being easy.

But you're underestimating humans big time if you think someone won't go through all that to gain fame.

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All my medical records say female, McKinnon said. My doctor treats me as a female person, my racing license says female, but people who oppose my existence still want to think of me as male . . . So, if we want to say, that I believe youre a woman for all of society, except for this massive central part that is sport, then thats not fair.

Life's not fair. Stop paying your doctor to lie to you.
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The champion is certainly a female, but it's a female taking advantage of male physiology to set a world record......
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It's kind of interesting that in the past... oh I don't know, 17 years on this board I'd be willing to bet there were zero topics on female cycling that did not have to deal with a transgender racer. I bet most people couldn't name a single female cyclist. I'd be surprised if most of them could name a single male cyclist NOT named Lance Armstrong. How many people know Jeannie Longo, or Sarah Newsome, or Georgia LaMont, or Emma Pooley? How many even know names like Jared Thompson, Pedro Delgado, Tom Simpson, or Xavier Brown? Here's how few: You might not have realized I made some of those names up. (Maybe I made all of them up? Can you tell without googling them?) Maybe I'm lying about making ANY of them up. And you'd probably never know without Google. (If you do know, kudos to you, I guess0

But I digress.

It's worth noting that Ms. McKinnon is hardly 'dominating' the sport. (In one recent competition, she placed 11th.) Yes, she has some biological advantages -- as do most athletes. (Also worth noting that in one competition she won, a competitor with better time trials than her dropped out -- rather respectfully, so she doesn't deserve scorn from our Trans-Friendly residents) because she disagreed with the rules. (She also disagreed with people calling Dr. McKinnon a 'cheater')

I think there should be some discussion on requirements for trans-athletes to compete in professional sports. And it's an important discussion to have. I don't', however, think it benefits anyone to simply ban them from participation (thus leaving them out of any right to participate in professional sports at all) and misgender them when talking about them. Perhaps the current requirements aren't enough (some would argue that it's too much -- usually depending on their level of comfort with transgender people)

Ultimately though, I think the bigger issue facing women's sports is visibility. How many female athletes can you name? If I had to guess the list of female athletes people would list would probably look a little like this:

1. Venus Williams
2. Serena Williams
3. BIllie Jean King
4. Maria Sharapova
5. Anna Kournikova
6. Lindsey Vonn
7. Danica Patrick (though let's be honest most people know her for the Godaddy commercials)
8. Ronda Rousey
9. Mia Hamm
10. Maybe Sue Bird?
10. Maybe Misty May Trainor?
11. Maybe Alex Morgan?
12. Maybe Megan Rapinoe?

I'm sure there's some I'm leaving off. But I doubt many people could really name too many female athletes. Their sports could use a bit more visibility. (I doubt anyone could name many professional cheerleaders, for example. And yes, Cheerleading is a sport.)

It'd be nice if people paid attention when there weren't trans athletes winning. But I guess that doesn't get the clicks. Nothing to get upset about. Except maybe that female sports just don't get enough attention. But what are you, some kind of feminist?
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Ashethan posted...

I bet most people couldn't name a single female cyclist.

I'll take you up on your challenge

Jeannie Longo, or Sarah Newsome, or Georgia LaMont, or Emma Pooley

owned nerd
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God i'm so fucking pissed you got the sirfetchd name before someone who wouldn't taint it

Paratroopa1 posted...

God i'm so fucking pissed you got the sirfetchd name before someone who wouldn't taint it

Even worse, the name Sirfetchd has been leaked 3 months earlier but nobody grabbed it until the reveal
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I don't make alt accounts normally but this makes me want to grab every pokemon and sit on them because I don't need casual transphobe sirfetch'd in my life

pjbasis posted...

Never said anything about it being easy.

But you're underestimating humans big time if you think someone won't go through all that to gain fame.

there are way easier ways to be famous. its like the fearmongering argument that if you let transgender women use the womens bathroom someone is going to just pretend to be a woman so they can do sex crimes in there. Its just not a legitimate risk and it shouldnt be a factor in any decisions.
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I mean, women can take steroids, but they're not allowed to compete after that

I would consider being trans to having taken steroids in this scenario
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This is especially apt, because taking steroids doesn't automatically give you a win
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banananor posted...

I mean, women can take steroids, but they're not allowed to compete after that

I would consider being trans to having taken steroids in this scenario

Whats the rule in cycling on elevated testosterone levels that trans athletes have to abide by? I assume its similar to disallowed steroid levels
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rules differ from sport to sport, industry to industry. USA Powerlifting for example takes an approach based on sex: trans women can compete with men and trans men can't use testosterone if they're to compete with women. personally i like that standard the most as it acknowledges the benefits of being born male and it acknowledges the massive benefit loading yourself with testosterone gives. now obviously for FtM transitioning that policy ain't gonna work very well but fact is they're basically roiding up. you compete based on your sex, without enhancement, which is the most fair thing to do since gender ain't what's making the differences, sex is.
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I have thoughts on this but hell if anyone thinks I'm stupid enough to put any of them down in writing in this current society.
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Jakyl25 posted...

banananor posted...

I mean, women can take steroids, but they're not allowed to compete after that

I would consider being trans to having taken steroids in this scenario

Whats the rule in cycling on elevated testosterone levels that trans athletes have to abide by? I assume its similar to disallowed steroid levels

i don't know- do you?
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banananor posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

banananor posted...

I mean, women can take steroids, but they're not allowed to compete after that

I would consider being trans to having taken steroids in this scenario

Whats the rule in cycling on elevated testosterone levels that trans athletes have to abide by? I assume its similar to disallowed steroid levels

i don't know- do you?

No thats why Im asking
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Honestly, I don't have any idea. It's hard to imagine testosterone levels being the only metric, but if you're allowed to juice up for 20 years and then stop 6 months before the competition that feels like a loophole to me

But if the rules are consistent, then they're the rules
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Katie Archibald
Hannah Barnes
Lizzie Deagan
Katy Marchant
Laura Kenny
Helen Scott
DAME Sarah Storey

Is my high horse the highest because I can name more female cyclists and even get to include a Dame?

if you're going off time, Olympics is another standard and theirs was 2 years i think? though testosterone isn't the only issue for MtF competitors. it's certainly a factor but the beneficial effects, like bone mass or skeletal structure (including things like average height, hips, shoulders, fists, etc), do seem to be permanent. even though there's muscle loss gains are still quick, there's gonna be less wear and tear for the same level of performance (cutting down as opposed to building up), muscle memory is still retained, etc. even after 2 years that's all still there, there's no practical way to even things out.
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5tarscream posted...

Katie Archibald
Hannah Barnes
Lizzie Deagan
Katy Marchant
Laura Kenny
Helen Scott
DAME Sarah Storey

Is my high horse the highest because I can name more female cyclists and even get to include a Dame?

why can you name so many female cyclists
weirdo
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MoogleKupo141 posted...

there are way easier ways to be famous. its like the fearmongering argument that if you let transgender women use the womens bathroom someone is going to just pretend to be a woman so they can do sex crimes in there. Its just not a legitimate risk and it shouldnt be a factor in any decisions.

There are way easier ways to be famous than actual ways people really do become famous for. I don't understand most of the reasons people do insane shit.

Plus I am imagining this hypothetical unscrupulous athlete would also bribe his way through some officials or something.

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Wanglicious posted...

the beneficial effects, like bone mass or skeletal structure (including things like average height, hips, shoulders, fists, etc), do seem to be permanent.

Should we ban all women who have advantages in these areas or only trans ones?

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MoogleKupo141 posted...

5tarscream posted...

Katie Archibald
Hannah Barnes
Lizzie Deagan
Katy Marchant
Laura Kenny
Helen Scott
DAME Sarah Storey

Is my high horse the highest because I can name more female cyclists and even get to include a Dame?

why can you name so many female cyclists
weirdo

Team GB is good at going round and round in circles. Just look at the Brexit discussion.

Basically trans women get the benefits of PEDs for bone mass and such as they wouldn't normally qualify for their field without the use of drugs altering their attributes

So it's not quite the same as non trans women who have advantages in those areas

I think if we're more loose about PEDs being allowed you can be more loose about inclusion but until then it's kind of a double standard in the name of not offending people.

I mean yes it sucks for trans people that they can't compete in sports at a high level should regulation go that way but life sucks. Many many people who would love to compete in sports at a high level are simply unable to for one reason or another, so while it sucks that it's another hurdle a trans person would have to overcome, high level sports is hardly an inclusive activity to begin with.
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I dont know of any sport that bans you from competing for having done years, even decades of steroids in the past as long as youre clean when you actually compete
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What is "clean" though

When you're clean, the beneficial effects of the drugs have worn off, yes?

The biological advantages from the PEDs in this case are permanent. You can never be clean of the benefit the drugs gave you as it relates to sports, as what they did was allow you to qualify into a division your biology initially barred you from

Perhaps at some point transitioning will advance to further mitigate those advantages and there will be less of an argument for trans women having an advantage, but at this point it's a delusion in the name of inclusion more than the actual state of things. And I just don't really have a lot of sympathy for it given the number of conditions that exempt people from being viable at high level sports. I'm sure there are a lot of people with I don't know Muscular Dystrophy that would love to be a world champion cyclist but you know what it just isn't happening, you know? Sometimes you just gotta accept that life giving you a tougher draw than someone else is going to exempt you from some opportunities. That's just how it is.
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Well its not really life giving you a tougher draw as much as it is society

But weve had this argument before so Im not gonna get riled up this time
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No it actually is life. The argument for inclusion or lack thereof in this case is all about biology and not about societal norms unless you think there just shouldn't be a women's division to begin with, because the whole reason that division exists is they'd generally get wrecked by men due to inherent disadvantages in biology.

Had they been biologically female to begin with there would be no problem. But hey, if I was a 6 inches taller maybe I could be a star in the NBA. Base thing still comes down to us not getting the genetics we wanted. Sometimes you just gotta make do with what you're dealt and accept it.
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I actually think they should just allow PED's into sport. That way nobody gets an unfair advantage because it's available to everybody. Pfft you call that a world record.

I think that's a respectable opinion. I'm on the fence if I agree but if PEDs were allowed I wouldn't oppose trans women competing in the women's division because the double standard is gone if you go that route.
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pjbasis posted...

MoogleKupo141 posted...

there are way easier ways to be famous. its like the fearmongering argument that if you let transgender women use the womens bathroom someone is going to just pretend to be a woman so they can do sex crimes in there. Its just not a legitimate risk and it shouldnt be a factor in any decisions.

There are way easier ways to be famous than actual ways people really do become famous for. I don't understand most of the reasons people do insane shit.

Plus I am imagining this hypothetical unscrupulous athlete would also bribe his way through some officials or something.

ok, I think there are three key factors here: effort, cost, and reward.

Effort: the man needs to live his life as a woman for years, and he needs to do hormone treatment and whatever else to physically change his body. Hed have to act like hes legitimately trans all the time hes in public too to maintain the lie. Consider what amount of money someone would have to pay you to go through that.

Cost: theres the hypothetical bribes, but also the medical procedures involved with transitioning cost money
I guess since this hypothetical man doesnt actually care how he looks he might not go for any reconstructive surgery, so it might just be the cost of hormones which isnt a ton but also isnt nothing

Reward: we used the word famous for a few posts here, but lets be real: barely anyone actually cares about womens sports. Unless this guy is able to become the #1 womens tennis player or something, hes going to be achieving a really low level of fame.
And they make way less money than male athletes too. The highest salary in the WNBA is $110,000 which is less than 1/5 of the lowest NBA salary and thats gotta be one of the better paying sports for women, right?

the payoff just isnt very good unless he becomes the best woman in one of maybe three sports. best bet is probably womens tennis, maybe if he could make top 5 there it would be pretty good.

no one is going to fake it*

(*the one hypothetical I could almost believe is some super unscrupulous government drafting b-tier male athletes to pretend to be trans to try to win Olympic medals. that still strikes me as far fetched, but its at least a somewhat logical motive)
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(*the one hypothetical I could almost believe is some super unscrupulous government drafting b-tier male athletes to pretend to be trans to try to win Olympic medals. that still strikes me as far fetched, but its at least a somewhat logical motive)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating_at_the_Paralympic_Games#Basketball_controversy

I could see it.

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