Board 8 > Moving to San Francisco

(+) Yeah! (+)

foolm0r0n posted...

Maybe you shouldn't have had so many babies that they have taken over your entire city and so the only possible place you can work in peace is an office 1 hour away.

Corrik is literally saying he would quit a job where he was forced to work remote. And 1 post later Gin says it's a strawman. Maybe he has Corrik ignored which is fair.

LMFAO your logic just jumped thirty chasms. I never said anything you said. I said you can prefer to work in a workplace based on your living arrangement.

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foolm0r0n posted...

Waluigi1 posted...

This...this is a joke right??

No shit, any idea that makes you feel uncomfortable is a joke

You literally just said talking face to face with someone is the worst wat to communicate... are you even a real human being?
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foolm0r0n posted...

It's clear that you think they are less effective and look down on them, but they're not. You are less effective than them.

Lmaoooo

Did you just like read a blog post from someone who liked to work from home and so now you think it's a global constant that working from home is optimal for efficiency, regardless of the context of the work?

foolm0r0n posted...

I'm saying that spinning around your chair is the most horrible way to communicate and the damage it causes your coworkers and company is one of the easiest things to demonstrate.

I think we're going to need some back up on this claim, lol

foolmo is reading like some angsty teenager who's super proud of how antisocial he is, it's really weird.
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foolm0r0n posted...

There's a reason those coworkers you talked about have opted out of your "optimal" method of communication (props to your boss for giving them to choice).

The best part is that foolmo here expresses the utmost optimism and faith in people he's never met (apparently for the sole purpose of belittling me)

Like, he's assuming every millenial who says "ok" when the boss offers to let them work from home isn't just doing it so they can stream twitch all day without it being monitored by the company.

No, no. I'm definitely the least effective member on the team. There is no other possibility.

Xiahou Shake posted...

foolmo is reading like some angsty teenager who's super proud of how antisocial he is, it's really weird.

that plus being a Jihadist has basically been his shtick for a decade
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Xiahou Shake posted...

I think we're going to need some back up on this claim, lol

What would satisfy you? I was already laughed at for bringing up my own experience. There's plenty of articles and studies, which have also been laughed at. Maybe my salary would give me enough cred? This is clearly a LMFAO-based discussion so I honestly don't know.

Xiahou Shake posted...

super proud of how antisocial he is

I guarantee I am ~10x a better communicator in the office than people like puns, and at least ~100x better when remote. Look at the sheer disdain he has for his remote coworkers. This mentality is incredibly common and sad, and it is not antisocial to suggest we have better ways to communicate.
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turbopuns3 posted...

No, no. I'm definitely the least effective member on the team

So far you are definitely the average tech worker I've seen, so I'm sure there's a few other less effective ones. Maybe not though!
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turbopuns3 posted...

Like, he's assuming every millenial who says "ok" when the boss offers to let them work from home isn't just doing it so they can stream twitch all day without it being monitored by the company.

Why are you countering dumb assumptions with equally dumb assumptions
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foolm0r0n posted...

I guarantee I am ~10x a better communicator in the office than people like puns

I believe it. Really proving that in this topic.
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StealThisSheen posted...

Why are you countering dumb assumptions with equally dumb assumptions

I'm not countering it, I'm just pointing out the assumption that he's making.

(And partially because I've seen some of them stream twitch at work lol)

foolm0r0n posted...

sheer disdain

Lol

You're a trip dude. How do you even manage to keep up with yourself

Speaking as someone who works remotely often, and has coworkers that are very foolmoey (though not nearly as extreme) in how they think...

I fully believe if everyone was like foolmo claims to be, that in highly tech oriented professions where presence was mostly unneeded working remotely would be optimal almost all the time. It does remove a lot of overhead cost.

It's not a realistic scenario though. Communication breakdowns occur, no matter how clearly things are communicated. Many people do not possess the technical communication skills to hash things out as effectively via remote. It's not just about how well you can communicate but also how well the others can receive and process your communication, and being able to absorb where they're failing to understand things efficiently so you can clarify things efficiently.

If you don't care and are only considering your own efficiency in a vacuum rather than overall team efficiency, sure. If it's just about being able to say "well I did my part they didn't understand me" then sure. Many very competent people just aren't wired in a way where going purely remote isn't going to add a lot of its own overhead in needing to take more effort to explain and communicate things.
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The depths you go to in order to pull inferences out of things when the implications aren't there suggest to me that perhaps you are not so great at communication!

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

foolm0r0n posted...

I guarantee I am ~10x a better communicator in the office than people like puns

I believe it. Really proving that in this topic.

You know what's funny is that based on an internal peer review a year or two ago I had the highest average communcation rating out of the entire engineering team!

Lopen posted...

If it's just about being able to say "well I did my part they didn't understand me" then sure

This mindset strikes me as what foolmo is btw and why he thinks remote is better every time. Communicate remotely to save time, check the boxes that make you think everything should be clear, blame it on dumb co-workers when they don't understand something or they don't make it clear what they don't understand about what you did or said. Would fit in with how he acts on the board to a t pretty much.
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Yeah I would agree I came to the conclusion earlier today that foolmo is definitely the smartest person at his work, and potentially the smartest person he knows irl, not being facetious. But this can have an unfortunate side effect of thinking you can always intuit everything with impeccable accuracy because in day to day life you're almost never confronted with being wrong.

I'm pretty sure foolmo is just a lame troll who thinks he's a lot more clever than he is.
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How's SF anyway? Did you go to in n out yet to sample the local cuisine?
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He can think he's a lot more clever than he is and still be the smartest guy at his workplace to be fair. He thinks he's really clever so there's a wide range for values to fall there!
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San Francisco is amazing! Love the area! Love the weather! My job is everything I hoped it would be!

And I don't like burgers so In N Out isn't for me, unfortunately.
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turbopuns3 posted...

You're a trip dude. How do you even manage to keep up with yourself

I have so much extra time every day
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turbopuns3 posted...

You know what's funny is that based on an internal peer review a year or two ago I had the highest average communcation rating out of the entire engineering team!

Isn't this really sad considering you don't talk to half your team?
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Lopen posted...

Many people do not possess the technical communication skills to hash things out as effectively via remote

They don't in person either. And the problem is, there's no incentive to learn in person because it all seems so natural. You just turn your chair around, what could be better? It's not treated like an actual skill.

And it makes no sense to say I'm being individualist here. You can be the most giant selfish asshole and still keep your office job because there's no one better around (we've all seen this). With a remote job you're competing nationally and globally.

And I seriously doubt I'm the super smart exception at my current job. At previous jobs maybe, but even then I'm judging by my team's performance.
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

San Francisco is amazing! Love the area! Love the weather! My job is everything I hoped it would be!

And I don't like burgers so In N Out isn't for me, unfortunately.

If you dont mind, what is your job?

Also, In N Out is massively overrated even for people who do like burgers.

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Well whatever, speaking of San Francisco - do you think Tevin Coleman is gonna get me 6 more points this half
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Speaking of SF I got a beard trim here once

https://daddysbarbershop.com/

The guy pitied me because I didn't take full proper care of my beard every single day. It was kinda funny

In person you can read things like body langauge to intuit points of confusion, see where their eyes are focusing on their screen as you explain things, stuff like that. There's a lot more stuff you can process at once to determine where misunderstandings are or could occur.

I also find many people who don't entirely understand are more likely to take a leap at what you're getting at in person which can really get you to any points of confusion quickly, whereas with remote they'll just mindlessly agree or not say anything on things that are slightly ambiguous, thinking they'll figure it out when they've digested it, coming to you later when they don't.

It kinda needs a different set of skills than remote communication to exploit the benefits but with communicating with a lot of people, particularly in environments with wide ranges of skill and experience, they are there.
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Alcatraz audio tour was awesome imo. That's what I usually recommend to people who are gonna visit there (note that I've only been twice so I'm not a local or anything)

Muir Woods was worth it as well. Saw some crazy old trees and bought a yellow stuffed slug souvenir

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

And I don't like burgers so In N Out isn't for me, unfortunately.

Wow dude foolmo was right about you all along
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

How's SF anyway? Did you go to in n out yet to sample the local cuisine?

Wow, you really have no clue about the diverse and wonderful bay area food scene.

The local specialty is Super Duper Burger, you pleb.

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foolm0r0n posted...

turbopuns3 posted...

You know what's funny is that based on an internal peer review a year or two ago I had the highest average communcation rating out of the entire engineering team!

Isn't this really sad considering you don't talk to half your team?

Well you see

The review thing was a couple years ago

And the work from home thing only started like two weeks ago

And not even close to half my team works from home

And most of the ones who do work on different projects atm

So, there was quite a bit of pertinent context which you were lacking here, because you chose to assume stuff rather than try to make sure you had a good grasp on the circumstances, because ya know, you're such a top notch communicator!

Lopen posted...

In person you can read things like body langauge to intuit points of confusion, see where their eyes are focusing on their screen as you explain things, stuff like that. There's a lot more stuff you can process at once to determine where misunderstandings are or could occur.

Kinda. There's a "technical" body language that is very similar to technical writing too, which is very different from normal body language. Most people just use their natural English communication and it causes a ton of misunderstandings, especially in wide reaching situations like you said (e.g. engineers vs graphic designers, senior vs noob).

Learning technical communication, especially written, will totally transfer to in person. But no amount of chair-swiveling chatting will magically make you a technical writer.

But you did touch on the core idea with the point that people are usually quiter and more passive in remote. Natural English is reactive and conversational, but technical communication has to be very proactive. The whole skill is identifying and eliminating the ambiguities, so that you don't have to have the same back and forth convo with all 50 individuals on your team. It's the exact same activity as programming, which is why it's so mind blowing to me that so many tech workers hate it.
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turbopuns3 posted...

So, there was quite a bit of pertinent context which you were lacking here

I was seriously giving you the benefit of the doubt that you brought up that award as relevant to this topic, but yeah my bad. Still, at least you do realize that you wouldn't get that award again today.
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

And I don't like burgers so In N Out isn't for me, unfortunately.

Wow dude foolmo was right about you all along

He's not missing much tho
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foolm0r0n posted...

Still, at least you do realize that you wouldn't get that award again today.

You're right dude! I recently forgot how to talk. That's why I post here so much.

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

San Francisco is amazing! Love the area! Love the weather!

Getting back on topic....have you weeb'd out in Japan Town yet? Even though there's not much to really weeb over other than a Kinokuniya, a video store, and a really small arcade, but it's good to for some food.

I'm personally not that big on San Francisco much, it's always a pain to drive around.
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foolm0r0n posted...

The whole skill is identifying and eliminating the ambiguities

This helps but is not as easy as you are trying to claim here.

I do agree everyone should take some technical communication classes and such cause it's just useful, but some people just don't click with remote communication as well and it's not a complete overlap in skills either-- though I do agree knowing good technical communication will make you better at explaining things in person too.

But yeah it's part personalities and part it not being entirely plausible to hit every ambiguity for every person. You can say "it is, git gud" but it really isn't. Basically the best you can hope for is removing the most common misunderstandings. Often that will be enough, but when it isn't you lose a lot of productivity because it won't as immediately become clear that it isn't.

I think any good collaboration should start with a good remote friendly base like some good documentation or even just a group email laying out objectives or whatever, but yeah sometimes, especially once you've laid that groundwork, it just isn't the optimal way to work through things-- this is especially true as your teams shrink and it becomes plausible to work one on one with all relevant members of a team.

Also it doesn't help that most programmers are incredibly bad at technical communication fundamentals in my experience, particularly when communicating with non-programmers. You can say everyone should be trained in it but the reality is they simply aren't. Swiveling chairs may not always be optimal but it is better than the alternative of things straight up not getting done.

Anyway I'm just saying this topic is being dumbed down a lot. On both sides, really. Remote always better is solid theorycraft and works in a perfect world, but if you're seriously arguing it I feel that shows a lack of breadth in experience, being extremely lucky with who you've worked with, or a delusion on how well you're being understood across the board and not absorbing how many delays those misunderstandings are causing cause it's not directly through you. In person always better is probably closer to right imo, but it will depend on the cost of doing that and the teams you're working with, obviously.
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redrocket posted...

PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

San Francisco is amazing! Love the area! Love the weather! My job is everything I hoped it would be!

And I don't like burgers so In N Out isn't for me, unfortunately.

If you dont mind, what is your job?

Also, In N Out is massively overrated even for people who do like burgers.

I'm a paralegal for a small law firm. It's pretty great.

neonreaper posted...

Well whatever, speaking of San Francisco - do you think Tevin Coleman is gonna get me 6 more points this half

Dude, I needed this same thing to happen.

Thank god he clutched it out enough for me to win in the end.

Apparently in the East Bay, it's like, crazy Raiders fans (I pass their shitty stadium every day to get to work) and 49er fans just having a blood feud.

And I have not weebed out in Japan Town. No idea where it's at actually! There's so much there to explore. I need to get paid first before I can enjoy it all though!
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So what's this argument? Foolmo is arguing that working remote is always better? Is that seriously the argument?
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That seems to be the gist. Or else he's very poorly communicating his point.
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So, when Aristotle said that everything is best in moderation, I think he's wrong. But that doesn't mean that nothing is good in moderation either. Moderation in moderation! Most of the time!
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Also, I don't think many law firms allow paralegals to work remotely. Definitely not smaller ones.
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Disputing moderation never works. You're walking a doomed path.
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Lopen posted...

Disputing moderation never works. You're walking a doomed path.

It used to. I had a very high rate of overturns on the previous system. This new system which was supposed to be better seems like some bullshit so far.

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VintageGin posted...

Wow, you really have no clue about the diverse and wonderful bay area food scene.

The local specialty is Super Duper Burger, you pleb.

While Hops is great in Greensboro, can I point you to The Big Burger Spot in Greensboro as well? Great place.

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Lopen posted...

This helps but is not as easy as you are trying to claim here.

I'm saying it's an orthogonal skill that takes a real and intentional investment of effort to learn, how does that come off as "easy"? Keep in mind I'm arguing with people who think it's laughable to suggest there's a better way to communicate than swiveling a chair.

Lopen posted...

Remote always better is solid theorycraft and works in a perfect world, but if you're seriously arguing it I feel that shows a lack of breadth in experience, being extremely lucky with who you've worked with, or a delusion on how well you're being understood across the board and not absorbing how many delays those misunderstandings are causing cause it's not directly through you.

But like, if this is what it's coming down to, you're just wrong. Like I asked Shake, what evidence are you actually looking for? Tell me and I'll give it you, because I can. I have the experience in both, everyone else just has the office experience. How is my experience the one being questioned?
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red sox 777 posted...

So what's this argument? Foolmo is arguing that working remote is always better? Is that seriously the argument?

If your work is remote workable, then you should strive for it yeah
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what even is this topic

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