Current Events > Alleged motivation for TLoU2 leak posted on reddit

(+) Yeah! (+)

I feel no sympathy if this is true.

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The Druck strikes again!

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Ugh.

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>pay dispute over a hundred thousand dollars or w/e
>risks MILLIONS of dollars plus possible jail time in legal/property charges

Fucking moron if true lmao. Also I seriously doubt this idiot was doing it for his colleagues as if it actually financially helps them somehow.

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It's funny seeing the main advocates of crunch suddenly becoming huge defenders of workers rights when they perceive a game as ceding to the boogeyman sjw agenda or whatever

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NinjaBreakfast posted...

It's funny seeing the main advocates of crunch suddenly becoming huge defenders of workers rights when they perceive a game as ceding to the boogeyman sjw agenda or whatever

This, everyone should go back to work unless they are making something my small mind considers liberal then Im pro labor.

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Yeah Idk what to believe

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NinjaBreakfast posted...

It's funny seeing the main advocates of crunch suddenly becoming huge defenders of workers rights when they perceive a game as ceding to the boogeyman sjw agenda or whatever

It's funny seeing the opposite too

Especially from tools like Jason Schrier

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I can respect the reasoning. People who've worked on the game applied to get some of their bonuses early, and they got it. Employees applied to get some of their bonuses early, and the company threatened to fire them over it.

Everybody's hurting right now, and as the post states, it's a common practice in the game industry to underpay workers during the development of a game. These people probably don't have a lot of cash to fall back on, and a precedent had been set with Neil Druckmann and other employees receiving a portion of their promised bonus - only for lower staff to be threatened with termination for asking for that same courtesy.

While the action is extremely rash, the reasons behind the leak are sympathetic.

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Why is crunch a thing?

Crunch is stupid. Crunch was supposed to be a way to damage control after an unforeseen circumstance created time constraints. Now crunch is the go-to way to develop, it's stupid and bad for the industry

Coastal_elite posted...

Why is crunch a thing?

Crunch is stupid. Crunch was supposed to be a way to damage control after an unforeseen circumstance created time constraints. Now crunch is the go-to way to develop, it's stupid and bad for the industry

No idea

I'd assume its something to do with HD graphics since that's the only thing that seems different.

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Coastal_elite posted...

Why is crunch a thing?

Crunch is stupid. Crunch was supposed to be a way to damage control after an unforeseen circumstance created time constraints. Now crunch is the go-to way to develop, it's stupid and bad for the industry

The pressure to make games with as little labor as possible. They are salary so you pay them well and work them to death which causes productivity to fall and then you get off schedule.

The root causes are how complex games are these days and how so many studios just go from one huge AAA game to the next so the entire studio is riding on each release.

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*continues laughing like Judge Judy*
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Coastal_elite posted...

Why is crunch a thing?

Crunch is stupid. Crunch was supposed to be a way to damage control after an unforeseen circumstance created time constraints. Now crunch is the go-to way to develop, it's stupid and bad for the industry

I think it's fairly normal in project based professions. I can tell you that much of the structural design done in buildings are done in crunch periods prior to deadlines.

Edit: Additionally, from a PM perspective project hours in the first 40 hours an employee works on a project are charged around 3x the employee's pay to cover things like benefits, overhead, licenses, etc. However, OT hours (which are regularly paid in structural engineering, but necessarily in game development) are only charged for worker pay. So any hour beyond 40 hours of labor form your employee is basically ~70% off, so many PM's are incentivized to work a few workers 50-55 hours a week than to hire a new employee for 40 hours.

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Jabodie posted...

I think it's fairly normal in project based professions. I can tell you that much of the structural design done in buildings are done in crunch periods prior to deadlines.

Edit: Additionally, from a PM perspective project hours in the first 40 hours an employee works on a project are charged around 3x the employee's pay to cover things like benefits, overhead, licenses, etc. However, OT hours (which are regularly paid in structural engineering, but necessarily in game development) are only charged for worker pay. So any hour beyond 40 hours of labor form your employee is basically ~70% off, so many PM's are incentivized to work a few workers 50-55 hours a week than to hire a new employee for 40 hours.

so it's basically profit-seeking abuse. that sucks.

"YOU WILL WORK 90 HOUR WEEKS AND WE WILL UNDERPAY YOU AND YOU WILL LIKE IT CUZ WE NEED TO DO PROFITS".

Modern corporate culture has to change man. :/

I know it's not your fault LOL, thanks for the explanation

Jabodie posted...

I think it's fairly normal in project based professions. I can tell you that much of the structural design done in buildings are done in crunch periods prior to deadlines.

Edit: Additionally, from a PM perspective project hours in the first 40 hours an employee works on a project are charged around 3x the employee's pay to cover things like benefits, overhead, licenses, etc. However, OT hours (which are regularly paid in structural engineering, but necessarily in game development) are only charged for worker pay. So any hour beyond 40 hours of labor form your employee is basically ~70% off, so many PM's are incentivized to work a few workers 50-55 hours a week than to hire a new employee for 40 hours.

So fucking glad I got out of Engineering/Consulting.

Idiot

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Coastal_elite posted...

so it's basically profit-seeking abuse. that sucks.

"YOU WILL WORK 90 HOUR WEEKS AND WE WILL UNDERPAY YOU AND YOU WILL LIKE IT CUZ WE NEED TO DO PROFITS".

Modern corporate culture has to change man. :/

I know it's not your fault LOL, thanks for the explanation

On the engineering side, many small firms do the same thing. In this case it is largely because structural engineering is considered a commodity by building owners (the rich) and projects will always go to the lowest bid.

This is also why as a starting structural engineer, your starting pay is nearly independent of the cost of living of your area. If California firms are paying their works salaries adjusted for cost of living, then California workers will take bids from Texas for half the price.

Skill and prestige will typically only come into play in very high profile feats of architecture.

Edit: I should also say good PMs in structures are good about keeping employees productive during those first 40 hours. But some firms take on too much work knowing they'll work their employees a lot. A more extreme example is my friend to went to a new office of a very prestigious firm. But the guy who runs that office is a great engineer, but a complete asshole that expects you to make your work your life. He was working like 60-80 hour weeks for a year before he left.

As an aside, structural engineers in England are literally paid half what they're paid in the states. And as it so happens, typically the most prestigious projects in the world are done in London offices lol.

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Hairistotle posted...

Wait, this makes naughty dog look awful why are normal and even good posters seemingly against this?

Because some alt right users are bashing the game so the people that made the game can do no wrong

This is what happens with a system that puts the control in the hands of so few. Druckman and friends can pay themselves and know that they wont have to pay their workers because the workers are at their mercy. The labor created the entire game but the people that merely ordered them to do it reap all the benefits.

Capitalists: We deserve all the profits because we take all the risks!

Capitalists facing risks: Well theres no way I should be responsible for any of that.

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I cannot fathom that whatever form the employment/payment agreement took didn't have a force majeur clause.


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Seems pretty dumb. I would assume this will hurt sales and thus all those bonuses for all those employees.

So this guy basically took it into his hands to gamble with all of their money, I assume without all of, or even most of, their consent. Which makes him an asshole, not a martyr

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Lmao@ Druckmann and other executives still getting their bonuses anyway

Sony delayed the launch because they had this perception that the game wouldn't sell properly during the pandemic for some reason and now they're gonna take a hit anyway

Good guy dev didn't want the rest of his team to suffer, hope he stays unknown

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Let's wait for all the facts. Quickly siding either side says a lot about you.

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Sounds like Naughty Dog is a Hitler-anus trash company, IMO.
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There are a lot of contribution to why crunch time is a thing. For instance, most game companies make more money making freemium games ,that are essentially cheaper to make making the profit margin huge, in comparison to making a $60 AAA console game that is not guaranteed at times to make a huge profit margin unless it's an already established IP that has been shown in the past to make a lot of $$$$. Another thing is that crunch time is a normalized practice in some businesses, like mines in Public Accounting where it's normal to work 65-80 hrs a week during tax season because we're essentially cramming 6 months of work into 3 and a half. It's especially normalized in Japan where you're personally shamed and frowned upon if you leave work early because you want to show how productive you are in society, so you can expect why Japanese games in the past tend to be a little higher quality than American made games. The good thing now is that crunch time practices is now being more frowned upon in the United States (because the public is now more aware about it), but sadly it isn't going away anytime soon in Japan.

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And of course the majority of you guys easily and quickly grasp on to that reddit post with little to no evidence. I forget how anti-corporation CE is. Casual consumers goin casually consume. Yall a bunch of Karens and you don't even know it.

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heh

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So their bonuses would be paid out 6 months after the game or NOT AT ALL

If you bank your future on money that is not guaranteed, you're a fool.

That being said, the game devs are scum who should go out of business for treating their employees like shit.

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Veggeta X posted...

And of course the majority of you guys easily and quickly grasp on to that reddit post with little to no evidence. I forget how anti-corporation CE is. Casual consumers goin casually consume. Yall a bunch of Karens and you don't even know it.

My post is made assuming its true but it also applies generally even if this story is fabricated.

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NinjaBreakfast posted...

It's funny seeing the main advocates of crunch suddenly becoming huge defenders of workers rights when they perceive a game as ceding to the boogeyman sjw agenda or whatever

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Maybe a smaller bonus as soon as possible in a crisis is preferable to a larger one in the distant future.
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that story is pretty specific about the person who leaked it if its real, which leads me to believe its probably not real

if it is though fuck naughty dog and fuck people stanning for corporations

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DeadBankerDream posted...

Maybe a smaller bonus as soon as possible in a crisis is preferable to a larger one in the distant future.

Or just base it on a conservative sales estimate and pay any extra out in full later

kewldude475 posted...

lots of people on TLOU 2 board are saying things like "The leak saved me money"

Lots of people also said they would not buy FF7R on the board.

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kewldude475 posted...

It's TLOU Part 2 the money seemed more likely then, now tons of polls are stating that people don't want to get the game anymore, when beforehand it was likely to sell pretty well. You don't even have to search much, lots of people on TLOU 2 board are saying things like "The leak saved me money"

Also, depending on the wording of the contract, you could perceive them as saying "If we don't want you to get a bonus after 6 months, we can decide not to give it to you for any reason", so I get your point.

I've been screwed around with promises of bonues in the past (one of the downsides to working in the wild west of biotech startups). I just have like PTSD from broken pay promises.

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ultimate reaver posted...

if it is though fuck naughty dog and fuck people stanning for corporations

And if it's not real what will you say? Fuck the dude who leaked fake news and tried to stir shit up and consumers are dumb as fuck? Bet you won't.

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This whole practice is fucking scummy and shit for the workers but, depending on and making set plans on bonuses that you arent guaranteed to get, or guaranteed how much, is also stupid and poor planning. Definitely not defending Naughty Dog here, or any other studio that does this, they can rot in hell for these shitty, unethical business practices

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I also don't understand the logic of postponing cause of the pandemic.

Now seems like the best time to release a highly anticipated game.

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capitali$m

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Being vocal about shit and taking action are two different things.

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Veggeta X posted...

And if it's not real what will you say? Fuck the dude who leaked fake news and tried to stir shit up and consumers are dumb as fuck? Bet you won't.

Why should anyone care enough to say fuck that dude?

How has your life been ruined by some people reading spoilers for a game before its released?
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Solid Snake07 posted...

I also don't understand the logic of postponing cause of the pandemic.

Now seems like the best time to release a highly anticipated game.

It's mostly on physical releases, where you'll need to get it produced and shipping can take weeks or months to get. I mean right now I'm mostly buying my games digital because it just makes more sense. Less hands touching something the safer and better you're off.

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