Board 8 > Anagram Aces Ace Attorney Topic 5: Ghost of Morality (spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Yeah, 6-4 is a triumph of localization. They took a really difficult subject matter for English speaking audiences and made it work.

Also new page for preemptive 6-5 hype

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I get the sense that even for a Japanese audience the rakugo theme required some explanation and some 'transporting into an unfamiliar world' since probably not everyone's familiar with it so that helped a bit I think, there's a lot of natural points in the script for them to kind of help ease the player into the idea of rakugo.

Yeah, I think rakugo is a niche thing even for a Japanese audience. The fact that they were saying it's told in tight settings to small crowds seems to indicate as much anyway.

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I got the feeling it's a kind of thing that appeals more to older people, instead of the younger people who are likely to be playing 3DS.

Same reason why Western fans don't know it, because we normally get exposed to the Japanese content that is made for kids/teenagers (anime, games, etc).

looking forward to future Ace Attorney cases about big band music, beat shop poetry, and dadaism

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ZeldaTPLink posted...

I got the feeling it's a kind of thing that appeals more to older people, instead of the younger people who are likely to be playing 3DS.

Same reason why Western fans don't know it, because we normally get exposed to the Japanese content that is made for kids/teenagers (anime, games, etc).

I mean there are recent anime about rakugo:
https://myanimelist.net/anime/28735/Shouwa_Genroku_Rakugo_Shinjuu
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Episode 6-5

• Dhurke shows up in LA. I'm going to level with you: I know that 'one arm out of the sleeve and parallel to your waist' is just a Japanese thing, but to me, it's an Auron thing. I never don't think of Auron when I see it.
• Dhurke tries to set Apollo up with Trucy, so we can add "incest" to the list of fetishes the games push. I see what you're doing, Capcom.
• Dhurke shows us a picture of Archie Buff. Chances of him already being dead and a trial happening about the murder: 100%.
• Trucy on Apollo being raised by Dhurke: "I don't think anyone would believe you." Yeah, I don't believe it when the game throws this into Apollo's backstory three games in. Remember his best friend Clay Terran who was never mentioned until he died? This is worse than that. Doesn't Apollo already have a complete backstory at this point? Why do we need daddy issues thrown into the mix?
• Ah, that Dhurke, always bringing sushi to visit his American son from South Asia. Although, I'll admit, I am in walking distance of like eight sources of sushi right now, so this is a realistic thing to have in LA.
• How does Ema even have Datz's fingerprints?

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Anagram posted...

Trucy on Apollo being raised by Dhurke: "I don't think anyone would believe you." Yeah, I don't believe it when the game throws this into Apollo's backstory three games in. Remember his best friend Clay Terran who was never mentioned until he died? This is worse than that. Doesn't Apollo already have a complete backstory at this point? Why do we need daddy issues thrown into the mix?

Keep an open mind, is the only thing I'll say

It's a ronin thing.

Anagram posted...

Doesn't Apollo already have a complete backstory at this point?

but does he

AJ and DD didn't really explore that much about Apollo honestly

Anagram posted...

How does Ema even have Datz's fingerprints?

she was there for 6-3 and he was a trial witness, it's not that difficult

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Also how surprised are you:

a) that you're in LA
b) that you're Apollo
c) that Dhurke just immediately showed up randomly

Also, 6-5 opening with Apollo as the playable character was perhaps the biggest surprise of the entire game for me. I did not expect them to let Apollo take the lead here.

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LeonhartFour posted...

but does he

AJ and DD didn't really explore that much about Apollo honestly

Yeah I agree with this

AJ tells you who his mom is and therefore who his sister is, but not really any of the circumstances of his birth or childhood

DD tells you... about a friend that he once had but that's it, I don't even think it makes sense to say that this was "randomly thrown in as backstory", like, we wouldn't necessarily know about every friend Apollo has, there are definitely people Phoenix knows that we've never heard of too. Though I DO agree that AJ and DD didn't really know what to do with Apollo, but that's a separate issue

Paratroopa1 posted...

Also how surprised are you:

a) that you're in LA
b) that you're Apollo
c) that Dhurke just immediately showed up randomly

LeonhartFour posted...

Also, 6-5 opening with Apollo as the playable character was perhaps the biggest surprise of the entire game for me. I did not expect them to let Apollo take the lead here.

LeonhartFour posted...

Also, 6-5 opening with Apollo as the playable character was perhaps the biggest surprise of the entire game for me. I did not expect them to let Apollo take the lead here.

Yeah, should've mentioned that, I was expecting Phoenix back in Khura'in. I just don't believe they'll have Apollo as the final character, so I expect a switch to Phoenix at some point.

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Like the big difference about PW1 and AJ is that you could almost consider Phoenix's characterization complete after his first game, and you barely know anything about Apollo at the end of AJ. You don't know why he wants to be a lawyer, why he admires Phoenix so much, important events in his upbringing, or anything. You just know his mom is the same as Trucy's mom, and that's about it.

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Well, we know he's got CHORDS OF STEEL.

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kinda significant spoilers that I can't help but say right now: I love that EVERYONE expects a switch to Phoenix when they play 6-5 even though, in retrospect, it's very obvious what they were doing

LeonhartFour posted...

Like the big difference about PW1 and AJ is that you could almost consider Phoenix's characterization complete after his first game, and you barely know anything about Apollo at the end of AJ. You don't know why he wants to be a lawyer, why he admires Phoenix so much, important events in his upbringing, or anything. You just know his mom is the same as Trucy's mom, and that's about it.

I guess this is true, but at the same time, I still felt like we knew everything we needed to know besides why his mother abandoned him. I'll talk more about this after the game, though.

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• Ah, the traditional American palanquin.
• "He's one of those people who only hears what they want to hear." "In other words, a model politician." I was going to make a joke about a certain politician, but then I realized it would apply to basically every politician ever, so alright.
• The American police catch Datz. Per extradition treaty with Khura'in, he is immediately shipped off overseas and executed, denying us a chance to progress the game. The case ends abruptly, and a short series of slides show us that Apollo grows old, marries Juniper from the last game, and is left unsatisfied for the rest of his days, always with the nagging feeling that he was meant for something greater.
• "They think I'm an illegal alien, and I can't prove otherwise 'cause I lost my passport!" Between this and Rayfa complaining about illegal immigrants, I feel like this game is trying to say something about illegal immigration, but has no idea what.
• The return of Pearl! Everyone's fourth-to-eighth favorite PW character!

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• Apollo complains about Blackquill's samurai sword despite us never seeing one. I mean, I'm sure he does have one, but the game never established that!
• Ah, the traditional ancient Southeast Asian American lake cave ruins right outside of LA. I stumbled onto these things all the time as a kid.
• Aha, a twist I didn't expect. Fighting Phoenix in court as Apollo is an interesting idea, even if these guys are criminal lawyers who have never done civil law, and it provides plenty of mysteryyyyyyyy for what Phoenix is up to. I like how Apollo is intimidated by him as the legendary Phoenix Wright, but literally no prosecutor has ever given him any degree of respect for being the lawyer who does crazy stuff all the time. But yeah, this is a good twist, and Phoenix is presented as someone Apollo should be crapping himself at the thought of facing, which is fun.
• I like how no one is questioning where Athena is right now.

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Woah, deja vu in that post

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What's an 'Athena'? /s

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hombad46 posted...

Woah, deja vu in that post

Whoops, fixed it.

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Anagram posted...

"He's one of those people who only hears what they want to hear." "In other words, a model politician." I was going to make a joke about a certain politician, but then I realized it would apply to basically every politician ever, so alright.

If anything else, the fact that SoJ came out during an election year made this guy's character hit so much more profoundly.

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Original US release date was Sept 8, 2016. So the US was pretty much into the final stretch leading up to the 2016 election when the game came out.
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Anagram posted...

I guess this is true, but at the same time, I still felt like we knew everything we needed to know besides why his mother abandoned him. I'll talk more about this after the game, though.

...like what? He had a friend? Seriously, what did we actually know about Apollo's backstory other than those things? You've already said that you consider Apollo the least interesting of the lawyers, and I imagine the lack of backstory is probably a contributing factor since Athena got more backstory in one game that wasn't even hers than Apollo got in two.

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would rather play Dick Gumshoe PickingFoodOutOfTheGarbage Adventures tbqh

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rSPVXgDQ5g

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_SecretSquirrel posted...

If anything else, the fact that SoJ came out during an election year made this guy's character hit so much more profoundly.

Team Rocket Elite posted...

Original US release date was Sept 8, 2016. So the US was pretty much into the final stretch leading up to the 2016 election when the game came out.

Didn't even consider this.

Leonhart4 posted...

...like what? He had a friend? Seriously, what did we actually know about Apollo's backstory other than those things? You've already said that you consider Apollo the least interesting of the lawyers, and I imagine the lack of backstory is probably a contributing factor since Athena got more backstory in one game that wasn't even hers than Apollo got in two.

I'll talk more about this postgame, I don't want to say anything that might actually be expanded upon as we go along.

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I mean you can answer what meaningful development he's actually had up until this point

I don't believe I've missed anything that wasn't revealed before this game

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Leonhart4 posted...

...like what? He had a friend? Seriously, what did we actually know about Apollo's backstory other than those things? You've already said that you consider Apollo the least interesting of the lawyers, and I imagine the lack of backstory is probably a contributing factor since Athena got more backstory in one game that wasn't even hers than Apollo got in two.

Oh, okay. Well, Apollo's backstory to this game had been about as complicated as Phoenix's (maybe slightly more): he was abandoned by his parents and eventually decided to become a lawyer, learned his mentor was a murderer, and decided that being a lawyer meant he had to pursue the truth. Phoenix's entire backstory is "I was accused of a crime I didn't commit, and seeing someone defend me made me want to defend others." Those are basically equal backstories.

The 'pursue the truth' part is something that's similar to Phoenix. I guess that's the problem I meant. Until now, Apollo kind of came across as a less experienced Phoenix: they're both generally nice guys who want to find the truth and help people, but are constantly flying by the seat of their pants. Aside from being put-upon by Trucy and his bracelet, most scenarios with Apollo feel like they would be similarly handled by Phoenix, the exception being the completely absurd Punished Apollo in AA5 (and I liked Punished Apollo as much as anyone). It probably doesn't help that Apollo's rival was both extremely lame and disappeared after AA4, whereas Edgeworth just will not stop showing up. Like, if the character of Phoenix Wright never existed, or if AA4 was the first game, then maybe I'd like Apollo more, but if he's put in situations where he has to be compared to Phoenix, he will always compare unfavorably. By contrast, Athena has a completely different personality and skillset from the others, which helps her stand apart even if her backstory is weirder and crazier.

Although, as I said, I'm playing through the "Apollo backstory" case right now, so we'll see how it goes.

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Apollo doesn't actually seem that obsessed with finding the truth. He doesn't talk about it that much. He's actually the type of guy who seems to care more about catching the bad guy than anything else because of his strong sense of right and wrong. He cares more about living up to his namesake of justice than finding the truth.

But even with his mentor being a murderer, they don't even explore how Apollo feels about Kristoph that much. There's a bit of conflict initially, and then he sides with Phoenix Wright because he's Phoenix Wright. Phoenix's backstory is simple, but it exists. What was Apollo's motivation for becoming a lawyer? You don't know. What was his relationship with Kristoph like? You don't know. How does he feel about growing up as an orphan? He literally never talks about himself (which they wisely use as a deflecting character trait in the 5th and 6th games), so what do you actually know about Apollo the person that made him who he is in the timeline of the games? Not much.

Like, you're getting caught up in his similarity to Phoenix and the fact that they're going to be compared to each other, but that's not backstory or character development.

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• Predicting the Crystal of Ami Fey and Founder's Orb are the same item.
• Athena fell asleep waiting at the airport in a car? I can 100% guarantee that is not possible at LAX or Burbank. Hot tip: if you need to fly into LA and have the choice between LAX and the Burbank Airport, choose Burbank.
• The absolute most shocking moment of this game was when Atishon got out of his campaign-mobile and stood up. I expected him to leave it, but I had no idea that they would model him standing. I was sure they was just keep him sitting and leaning back.
• I went three whole games without realizing Ema wears sandals until just now.
• "Don't tell me--" "Oh, but I will anyway."
• Ah, nmail. I have several accounts there myself.
• "My grandfather thinks highly of my talents as a politician. That's why he entrusted me with this very important name placard. It was crafted from the finest Italian plastic."
• There's a gallery for this civil case? Well, okay.
• I'm, uh, not sure a civil case if the best place to reveal that a murder took place. I feel like Ema would be required to report that to the police on her own. Also, to examine the doctor's head wound on her own. Also, to not accept Phoenix's request for autopsy and to only accept the family's. Also, to admit that she's a forensics expert and not a medical examiner.
• "A new witness? I wonder who it could be?" Gee, could it be the only other person introduced this case with a model?
• So, initially I thought "Datz Are'bal" was "That's horrible," but was it a secret double pun for "That's our ball," as in ball=orb? Because that's either genius or I'm Hugh O'Connering this.
• I would have bet anything that Sergeant Buff would be a little girl, and I was right. Didn't expect "Armie Buff," though.
• Oh my God, someone animated Apollo using a lighter on this orb. I take it back, this is the most shocking thing in the game. This is like when AA1 had four individual Yakuza guys pop up behind... whatever her name was.
• So, how does spirit channeling resolve someone's face changing over time? Like what happens if Maya needs to channel that guy who fought in Iraq and got his face melted off? Just a thought.
• Guessing that Maya is being held hostage or whatever by the politician.
• Pausing after Phoenix claims that the orb is fake because there's no spiritual power.

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LeonhartFour posted...

Apollo doesn't actually seem that obsessed with finding the truth. He doesn't talk about it that much. He's actually the type of guy who seems to care more about catching the bad guy than anything else because of his strong sense of right and wrong. He cares more about living up to his namesake of justice than finding the truth.

But even with his mentor being a murderer, they don't even explore how Apollo feels about Kristoph that much. There's a bit of conflict initially, and then he sides with Phoenix Wright because he's Phoenix Wright. Phoenix's backstory is simple, but it exists. What was Apollo's motivation for becoming a lawyer? You don't know. What was his relationship with Kristoph like? You don't know. How does he feel about growing up as an orphan? He literally never talks about himself (which they wisely use as a deflecting character trait in the 5th and 6th games), so what do you actually know about Apollo the person that made him who he is in the timeline of the games? Not much.

Like, you're getting caught up in his similarity to Phoenix and the fact that they're going to be compared to each other, but that's not backstory or character development.

I always felt like Apollo was a truth seeker as well, but it's possible I misinterpreted him, it's true. But you're definitely correct in that we should have had more about his relationship with Kristoph, that's a good point I hadn't considered. I can admit that learning more about his backstory does make him a little more interesting, I suppose, but I can't say more until I learn it all. I'll admit, I may be too hard on Apollo for bad reasons, so I'm going to reconsider this after I finish the game.

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Like, you knew exactly how Phoenix felt about Edgeworth disappearing in JFA.

Also, Datz Are'bal = That's a rebel

But "That's horrible" also works because he's basically Khura'inese Larry Butz

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Leonhart4 posted...

Also, Datz Are'bal = That's a rebel

But "That's horrible" also works because he's basically Khura'inese Larry Butz

Oh god, I missed the most obvious pun in the game, just kill me.

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i played through AA6 on Android, but they don't have the extra case DLC for it

if i buy this for 3DS can i play the DLC immediately or do i have to put myself through playing the main game again

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TheOrgyPorgy posted...

i played through AA6 on Android, but they don't have the extra case DLC for it

if i buy this for 3DS can i play the DLC immediately or do i have to put myself through playing the main game again

I can report that ios has an episode select where everything you've bought is available immediately.

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I say just watch it on YouTube. It's not worth buying the game again

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Anagram posted...

So, initially I thought "Datz Are'bal" was "That's horrible," but was it a secret double pun for "That's our ball," as in ball=orb? Because that's either genius or I'm Hugh O'Connering this.

This is the most shocking thing about the playthrough. :P


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Anna Graham's a goner

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....oh my god, I never noticed thats a rebel. I always read it as thats horrible.

<3 Sarge.

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Anagram posted...

I always felt like Apollo was a truth seeker as well, but it's possible I misinterpreted him, it's true. But you're definitely correct in that we should have had more about his relationship with Kristoph, that's a good point I hadn't considered. I can admit that learning more about his backstory does make him a little more interesting, I suppose, but I can't say more until I learn it all. I'll admit, I may be too hard on Apollo for bad reasons, so I'm going to reconsider this after I finish the game.

I like the idea that Apollo is a truth seeker. He is more logic oriented (similarly to Edgeworth) compared to Phoenix's tendency to do crazy buffs.

Oh, Apollo takes a similar logic-based approach to Edgeworth, but you never really see him focus on just finding the truth. More than anyone else in the series, Apollo just wants to nail the bad guy.

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• I really like how Atishon's placard keeps the scotch tape on it after he breaks it, that's never happened before for witnesses with items that break.
• I just realized, is Armie's mother "ex-Russian military" just to justify her having blonde hair and blue eyes in Japan? Because Athena has red hair and blue eyes.
• I don't know the name of the song, but this is really good 'two friends put into a dramatic situation' music.
• I guess it makes sense that Apollo hasn't already figured out what the "bestowing soul power" part means, since he's not versed in spirit channeling stuff, but man, it's excruciating as a player when you figure it out in one second and have to watch everyone else act clueless.
• Quality breakdown by Atishon.
• I guess I was wrong about Phoenix taking over in the latter half of the case, so be it.
• We don't get to see the person talking over the phone, we're just told it's Inga, so I'm guessing it's the queen.
• Unnecessary evidence foisted onto Trucy.
• Good thing jetlag doesn't exist in this universe. I can only imagine a plane trip from LA to Khura'in takes like 12 hours.
• Okay, does anyone have a count of how many cases involve the defendant not knowing if they killed the victim? Because this is at least number five. Hell, this is number two in a single game.
• I refuse to believe that Dhurke being married to Amara would not have come up in conversation before this.
• So much effort has been spent making sure we know that the queen can channel spirits, but we haven't seen her do it yet, so I can only assume that she's been secretly channeling a spirit the entire game and we've never met the 'real' queen, or that this is an impostor or something.
• Two brothers fighting to prosecute and defend their father, I suppose that's reasonably climatic, yeah.
• Pausing before the investigation of the tomb.

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Anagram posted...

Okay, does anyone have a count of how many cases involve the defendant not knowing if they killed the victim?

Edgeworth in 1-4 (the DL-6 case, specifically, not the Robert Hammond killing), Maya in 2-2, Wocky in 4-2 (maybe? He does seem legit confused as to what happened), Athena in 5-5, Trucy in 6-2, Dhurke in 6-5.

I think that's about it. But most past cases like DL-6 have someone thinking either they killed the victim or someone they care about killed the victim.

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LeonhartFour posted...

Edgeworth in 1-4 (the DL-6 case, specifically, not the Robert Hammond killing), Maya in 2-2, Wocky in 4-2 (maybe? He does seem legit confused as to what happened), Athena in 5-5, Trucy in 6-2, Dhurke in 6-5.

I think that's about it. But most past cases like DL-6 have someone thinking either they killed the victim or someone they care about killed the victim.

I think you forgot the Amnesia Kay case, but thank you.

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Well, I didn't count the Edgeworth games because they don't have proper "defendants," but if you did, then Lauren in E1-3 also thinks she killed the victim.

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• Maya was tied up with ropes, I'm adding bondage to the list of fetishes these games have.
• "Her Eminence thinks highly of my prosecutorial skills." -- Nahyuta, a guy who has won zero cases so far. Franziska at least won a case off-screen in AAI2!
• I was kind of assuming that Nahyuta's mystical powers weren't, you know... diagetic? Or were just there as jokes? I didn't realize he could actually speak in Khurai'nese and make Apollo's bracelet tighten.
• I just realized that Dhurke and Apollo have the same eyebrow shape, while Dhurke and Nahyuta don't. Perhaps Dhurke is Apollo's real father instead of his adoptive father? Who knowwwwwssssss except everyone else in this topic.
• Pausing as the trial begins.

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Phoenix and Edgeworth teaming up to investigate for a small section was excellent fanservice. I like that they finally indirectly acknowledged Gumshoe, too.

Also, Nahyuta technically won the first case in 6-3...!

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Why wouldn't Nahyuta be able to speak Khurai'nese? That's where he's from. And anyone can make Apollo's bracelet tighten. He has a whole gameplay mechanic based around that!

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