Board 8 > Anagram Aces Ace Attorney Topic 5: Ghost of Morality (spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Leonhart4 posted...

Phoenix and Edgeworth teaming up to investigate for a small section was excellent fanservice. I like that they finally indirectly acknowledged Gumshoe, too.

Also, Nahyuta technically won the first case in 6-3...!

I forgot about 6-3, but that case was undone, so I don't know if it even counts.

Mewtwo59 posted...

Why wouldn't Nahyuta be able to speak Khurai'nese? That's where he's from. And anyone can make Apollo's bracelet tighten. He has a whole gameplay mechanic based around that!

I meant how Nahyuta speaking Khurai'nese causes it to tighten too much to be used, and he explains that his mystical powers can render it worthless once he knows it was does.

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Oh, lol. Still, with how perceive is supposed to work, he could just be lying his butt off in Khurai'nese, since the way it works is based on involuntary tics when you lie.

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• Okay, so I made a mistake, I just assumed the trial would start after I finished Apollo's investigation, apparently I have a Phoenix section to go.
• I show Edgeworth my badge... Is that a reference to AAI requiring random, terrible pieces of evidence to be presented? Because if so, that's impressive.
• I like the little touches of Inga loving Rayfa even though he's a huge dick.
• I don't know if you're in a position to criticize other people for having crazy haircuts, Edgeworth.
• Paused after the Phoenix/Edgeworth section.

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Anagram posted...

I show Edgeworth my badge... Is that a reference to AAI requiring random, terrible pieces of evidence to be presented? Because if so, that's impressive.

yep, the only reference to AAI in the main series, and the implication that Gumshoe is still around!

it's weird that Rayfa and Dustin Prince are the only two characters whose birthdays we know

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LeonhartFour posted...

yep, the only reference to AAI in the main series, and the implication that Gumshoe is still around!

I kind of understand why they wouldn't include Gumshoe anymore. The series already has too many characters, and Ema stole his role in any case.

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I mean, they can make him the chief of detectives now or something! He doesn't have to be a lead investigator anymore.

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Anagram posted...

Maya was tied up with ropes, I'm adding bondage to the list of fetishes these games have

I think this was covered pretty egregiously by the end of 5-3 actually

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LeonhartFour posted...

yep, the only reference to AAI in the main series, and the implication that Gumshoe is still around!

it's weird that Rayfa and Dustin Prince are the only two characters whose birthdays we know

If you count DGS, there's also Soseki, but he's kind of a special case since he was a real person.

Edit: Oh yeah, Atishon too. July 11th.

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• I am uncertain I believe Edgeworth would willingly go into a sewer, but okay.
• I enjoy Edgeworth being angry about the Plumed Punisher, but I always thought his love for the Steel Samurai was a secret.
• Phoenix: "I can't allow someone as young as you to get involved in this, Athena." Meanwhile, Apollo is like five years older than her.
• I'm sorry, I know this is the theme of the game, but I simply do not believe that you could get a huge riot going about the DC act.
• Paused at the start of the trial for real this time.

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• I like that Apollo doesn't know to call the Judge "your Magistry," and that no one makes a big deal out of it.
• I like how no one is ever going to point out how a father being prosecuted by his own son is basically the same as von Karma prosecuting Edgeworth.
• Dun dun dun, Ga'ran dropping in and kicking Nahyuta out.
• See, it's actually almost plausible that Ga'ran was once a prosecutor, since if she was merely the queen's sister, it would make sense that she'd have a respectable-but-not-super-important job like that before getting promoted. I know this is a case of accidentally making sense, however.
• Changing into her evil prosecutor outfit is not something I expected. Bravo, 10/10. It actually looks nothing like Ulltimecia, but I can't help but think it looks exactly like Ultimecia.
• I like how the judge questions if Nahyuta can prosecute his own father, but doesn't question if he himself can fairly judge a trial prosecuted by his own queen.
• Reasonably good objection voice acting by Ga'ran.
• I should've said this earlier, but I've thought for a while that someone will have been dressed as a royal guard within the tomb, slipped into their ranks, and avoided detection that way.
• I enjoy Ga'ran being able to fart out new laws as she sees fit and appointing herself as judge. This is the first time since like von Karma that it's felt like the prosecutor was actually a threat, even if she does it by breaking the rules.
• I was waiting for Ga'ran to attack Apollo with her fan thing. This means the only prosecutors to never attack the heroes are the Payne brothers, Edgeworth, and Klavier. But Klavier attacked the player by making me watch that video of Lamiroir forty-five times, so I'm discounting him.
• Predicting that Inga was killed in advance and had his body stored in the temperature-controlled sarcophagus to throw off the time of death, and this was foreshadowed by Zeh'lot having a similar thing happen.

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The yakuza lady was Dee Vasquez.

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Anagram posted...

Changing into her evil prosecutor outfit is not something I expected. Bravo, 10/10. It actually looks nothing like Ulltimecia, but I can't help but think it looks exactly like Ultimecia.

Hahaha yeah, same. Or at least FF villain in general.

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Honestly she kinda reminded me of Hexadecimal from Reboot

Also, SUCH INSOLENCE is great

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• I enjoy Rayfa and Garan arguing about the actress playing her having bigger boobs and Rayfa gambling everything on a growth spurt. I feel ya, kid. I was the shortest boy in my graduating class, and even some of the girls were taller than me.
• Is there anything more stereotypically princess-y than talking to birds?
• I like how they didnt model Garan using a pen on the book, she just sort of waves her finger and stuff appears.
• I forgot to say this, but the VA for Rayfa sounds nothing like a teenage girl. Its clearly like a 30 year old adult-ass woman. Now, someone pull up the actress age as being like 15 and embarrass me.
• Oh hey, Maya is finally back in this game where shes front and center on the cover. Were going to talk about that in my postgame write-up, believe you me.
• Pausing at the start of Mayas testimony.

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She doesn't write with a pen. She's writing with the tip of her fingernails.

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Anagram posted...

* I forgot to say this, but the VA for Rayfa sounds nothing like a teenage girl. Its clearly like a 30 year old adult-ass woman. Now, someone pull up the actress age as being like 15 and embarrass me.

She's 36. Wow!

https://aceattorney.fandom.com/wiki/Brina_Palencia

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People have rioted and started wars over unjust laws for forever, so I don't know why you keep getting caught up on that.

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• Nayna's hairdo reminds me of this guy: https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/2059084.main_image.jpg?strip=all
• I forgot to say that I like Ga'ran's surprised pose. It's not master class like Edgeworth's, but it's still rock solid.
• I figured out the Amara = Nayna twist a few minutes before it dropped. I feel bad that I didn't see it coming from farther away!
• Apollo is like "lol just channel Amara's spirit," but I mean... He could just demand a DNA test between Nayna and any other member of the royal family.
• There needs to be another plot twist, so I predict that Ga'ran's earlier channeling was actually Amara, and Ga'ran was the one who channeled Inga.
• I like Amara summoning happy animals, especially after we were told the only animals around are those birds. I especially like the awestruck tiger.
• Angry lightning Amara is fun.
• Had to look up what to present when Amara said no one else was in the tomb. Stupid Mysterious Bloodstain.
• Haha, didn't expect the Dhurke twist.
• I mean, shouldn't the trial be called off? You can't try a dead person... I guess you can here, though.
• I'll level with you, I did not expect Ga'rans cleavage to be a key component of the case.
• I just realized, if you summoned a spirit channeler, could they channel someone else? Channelception, as it were?
• Didn't expect Amara to be shot. I was about to celebrate being right about that one bailiff with a model when I realized it was a royal guardsman, dammit.
• Pausing after Amara is shot.

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The Dhurke twist is fantastic. I figured it out about 30 seconds before Apollo did.

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Maybe this is explained later, but if Maya!Dhurke knew Inga didnt have Maya, why go to the hostage exchange at all?

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Because he can't give away that Maya is channeling him right then.

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I'm not sure if it's intentional or not, but I like how Dual Destinies ends with a two-part case, whereas SoJ does the opposite and the final case is essentially two cases in one.

In justice we trust!

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Leonhart4 posted...

The Dhurke twist is fantastic. I figured it out about 30 seconds before Apollo did.

Same

One of the best things they ever did

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I've known for a while that Rayfa wouldn't be Ga'ran's child, and that she'd be Amara's. I wish I had said it, just trust me on this. How did I know? Because I played Fire Emblem 7, where Nino is mistreated by her "mother," and it's a clue that she's not really the woman's daughter. Is that terrible evidence? Yes. Was I right? Yes.
I mean, I know it's exciting and all, but it's kind of absurd that in 2030 or whenever this game is set, there is only one photo of Apollo's father. I'll let it slide, but come on. There are obscure tribes in the Amazon rainforest who have never met civilization who have more photos of their members.
Third Rayfa dance in one trial. "Play that video one more time!"
I'll level with you, I cheated on the Insights and just looked up a guide. It's actually been years since I used a guide on GameFAQs. Seeing the table of contents with numbers next to each section for you to put into a search bar was a nostalgia bomb just by itself.
I just want Ga'ran to write a new law saying queens are allowed to kill justice ministers. That's all I want, game, just give it to me.
GA'RAN HAS NO CLAIM TO THE THRONE is a bit better than THE MURDER WEAPON WAS UDON DOUGH, I'll admit.
"Aren't you forgetting something? There are no lawyers in Khura'in." Athena gets no respect.
I love Apollo's pointing throwing all of the guards off of their feet.
I think it would have made more sense to have Ga'ran's attempt at summoning the Founder be voiced like Rayfa's, but I'll allow it.
I'll be blunt. This is by far the lamest breakdown of any final boss in the series. von Karma screaming, Matt Engarde slashing up his face, Godot bleeding through his mask, Kristoph's crazy rage, and Fulbright's masks were all way more satisfying than this. I was expecting way better, I am tremendously disappointed. And yes, I understand that they were going for a little subtlety here where she simply collapses, but you don't do that as the final moment of six games of crazy breakdowns, especially after this game's breakdowns got crazy and abstract.
"Remind me to never say or do anything to deserve a Maya-Athena double suplex..." I'm debating about whether or not this counts against the weird internet fetish count.
I'll accept Queen Rayfa, but I do think Queen Amara, or at least Reagent Amara, would make more sense.
Poor Athena and Edgeworth, having to take the middle seats on a twelve-hour flight.
Phoenix and Lamiroir are like "maybe we should tell Apollo and Trucy they're related... in the next game that will never come out."

Okay, so! I really enjoyed this case. I can tell it'll be in my top tier, though I'm not sure where yet. It has several major attributes, which I'll just go ahead and write here.
One of the major attributes of the original trilogy was spirit channeling, which they found weird and inventive ways to build cases around. There was nothing like that in AA4 and AA5 (by this I mean a major plot element to build wacky cases around), which was a void I didn't realize existed until now. Insights would have filled the role well enough, but the return of spirit channeling was probably a wise decision.
This was also the first time I really gave a **** about Apollo, you know? This feels more like Apollo's case than the entirety of AA4 does, which is weird but true. They actually managed to build an entire case around exploring his backstory and growing him as a character, which is something that the previous two games and Trucy case all failed to do, and it's actually interesting and engaging. You compare this to something like MGS, where Raiden is the main character and then he's just an ancillary character who could have been written out without changing much (sorry Raiden fans, but he does nothing in MGS4 that the plot needs to happen), and here Apollo is actually given a story that genuinely is Apollo's. The only problem with this is that the other cases either don't have Apollo in them or have absolutely nothing to do with Apollo's history with Nahyuta, so everything else ends up being filler except Phoenix's relationship with Rayfa.
Ga'ran is a solid villain even if I figured out that she was responsible for the fire like two seconds into the case. She feels like an actual threat, at least. Like, you play AA4 and Klavier feels like he'd get his ass kicked by Phoenix in five seconds. You play AA5 and Blackquill seems skilled, but he still feels like he's not taking things that seriously until the veeeeery end where he's just a witness. The issue here, though, is that she only feels dangerous because she can fart out new laws whenever she wants to, which is a fun mix-up, but she never does anything really establishes her as a skilled prosecutor. And don't say she sets up an evidence trap for Apollo early on, please. Gaspin Payne did the same thing in the first case. So, Ga'ran doesn't quite capture that von Karma atmosphere where you feel like you're on the defensive for the entire case, and she's not as emotionally compelling as Godot or personally compelling as Edgeworth. I wouldn't really call her a top tier villain, merely a solid one who's presented in a way that makes you want to kick her ass, which is fine. She's fiiiiine.
The ancillary civil case is a fun, unexpected change of pace. I did not expect a Phoenix vs Apollo showdown like that, and Atishon is satisfying to take down. By the way, this is the second client Phoenix Wright has intentionally betrayed a client.
Because I'm pretty sure 6-6 doesn't feature Nahyuta, I'll just put this here: he's really bad. Everything about the game that works works in spite of him dragging it down. I don't know what you could do to make him better without just completely rewriting the character.
I assume Edgeworth will feature in 6-6, because he sure as hell did nothing in 6-5 that you couldn't have had another character do. And don't say "lol he got Dhurke onto a plane," give me a break.
So... do we still not know why Lamiroir abandoned Apollo? Because I'm assuming it's not answered in 6-6.

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Oh, and I forgot: I was sure the game would end with Maya channeling Dhurke for a last goodbye with Apollo and Nahyuta. I was surprised when that didn't happen.

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Both clients hired Phoenix in bad faith as a blackmailing tactic, so I don't think I'd hold that against him!

And it says that Lamiroir thought Apollo died in the fire with his father, so that's why she never tried to find him.

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Leonhart4 posted...

And it says that Lamiroir thought Apollo died in the fire with his father, so that's why she never tried to find him.

Oh, I totally forgot that, okay.

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Come Ace Attorney 7, Lamiroir is D-E-D DEAD. Has Ace Attorney ever had a recurring character die? The closest I can think of is Mia, but she dies really early on and is channeled regularly for a while afterwards. Although Lamiroir isn't a major character, she has appeared in three cases (4-3, 4-4 and 6-5), and AA7 is bound to give her at least one more.

My prediction, Lamiroir will finally tell Apollo and Trucy that they're siblings and she is their mother. Apollo will take it badly and get into an argument with Lamiroir before storming off, with Lamiroir following him. The next day, Lamiroir is found dead, and Apollo is the prime suspect for her murder because of the argument. After all, Apollo hasn't been accused of murder yet, and most of the other major characters have!

GavsEvans123 posted...

Has Ace Attorney ever had a recurring character die?

Technically, technically, von Karma.

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Of the 6-5 twists, I saw Amara being Rayfa's mother way ahead of time, Dhurke being dead I think in the lobby segment prior to the reveal, and Garan not being able to channel completely blindsided me (even though I think a lot of people said they saw it coming way ahead of time).

Since you never commented on it and I didn't remember when it came up exactly: I haaaaaaaaaaaaated the throwaway joke of Inga's middle name. I would have minded a lot less if they had done it to some joke character, but for him it was just so dumb.

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GavsEvans123 posted...

Has Ace Attorney ever had a recurring character die?

Misty Fey if you want to count her!

Although some recurring characters die first and then become recurring, like Gregory Edgeworth or Zak Gramarye.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Of the 6-5 twists, I saw Amara being Rayfa's mother way ahead of time, Dhurke being dead I think in the lobby segment prior to the reveal, and Garan not being able to channel completely blindsided me (even though I think a lot of people said they saw it coming way ahead of time).

Yeah, I saw Ga'ran not being able to channel coming from a mile away. The Misty/Morgan Fey parallels between her and Amara were just too strong.

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Ga'ran not being able to channel also caught me off-guard, yeah.

How long is 6-6? Is it another 6-5/1-5 monster, or what?

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Nahyuta is really bad, yes, but the other thing that drags down 6-5 for me a bit (it's still very good, dont get me wrong) is Amara. I came away from the case genuinely unable to tell how the game wanted me to feel about her, which is a problem when she's such a big part of the case and multiple characters' motivations. Does she care about Dhurke or Nahyuta any more? Did she actually believe Dhurke tried to kill her? Is she cooperating with Ga'ran or too naive to realize she is very obviously being used? Is she oblivious or actively malevolent? Maybe some of these have answers that I'm forgetting but I was shocked that after a certain point she just kind of disappeared from the case.

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Anagram posted...

Ga'ran not being able to channel also caught me off-guard, yeah.

How long is 6-6? Is it another 6-5/1-5 monster, or what?

Nah, it's actually pretty manageable for a SoJ case. It's basically the length of a filler case in the original trilogy.

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SomeKindOfJoke posted...

Nahyuta is really bad, yes, but the other thing that drags down 6-5 for me a bit (it's still very good, dont get me wrong) is Amara. I came away from the case genuinely unable to tell how the game wanted me to feel about her, which is a problem when she's such a big part of the case and multiple characters' motivations. Does she care about Dhurke or Nahyuta any more? Did she actually believe Dhurke tried to kill her? Is she cooperating with Ga'ran or too naive to realize she is very obviously being used? Is she oblivious or actively malevolent? Maybe some of these have answers that I'm forgetting but I was shocked that after a certain point she just kind of disappeared from the case.

She does care about Dhurke, but stupidly believes he tried to killed her, which makes no sense, but she sort of admits her feelings are nonsensical anyway. At least according to Rayfa, Amara believed everything her sister said, which just makes her kind of stupid.

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6-6 is a smallish case. It's Ace Attorney at a stroll. I like it a lot.

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SomeKindOfJoke posted...

Nahyuta is really bad, yes, but the other thing that drags down 6-5 for me a bit (it's still very good, dont get me wrong) is Amara. I came away from the case genuinely unable to tell how the game wanted me to feel about her, which is a problem when she's such a big part of the case and multiple characters' motivations. Does she care about Dhurke or Nahyuta any more? Did she actually believe Dhurke tried to kill her? Is she cooperating with Ga'ran or too naive to realize she is very obviously being used? Is she oblivious or actively malevolent? Maybe some of these have answers that I'm forgetting but I was shocked that after a certain point she just kind of disappeared from the case.

Yeah this is unfortunately my biggest problem with the case too. After she gets shot we never see Amara again and we never get an answer from her whether or not she's come to terms with her contradictory feelings about Dhurke - I was really expecting a scene with Apollo and Amara at the end to clear up some shit but we never got that, despite the fact that they share a common thread in Dhurke. But she literally doesn't have a single line after she gets shot until we see her during the ending montage.

6-5 is still my favorite case in the series but it's a little unfair because it's basically 2 cases in one and both cases are really good. The first half is on its own a fantastic case, with the civil trial vs Phoenix and Paul Atishon and Apollo/Dhurke character building and all that (all of it is SO SAD in retrospect - remember how prickly Apollo was to Dhurke?). But then the Dhurke twist in the second half is probably the AA series' crowning moment imo - they do such an excellent job developing Dhurke's character in such a short time, and they do an excellent job of hiding the twist until it comes and punches you right in the gut. I thought it was flawlessly executed.

By the way, has it clicked for you yet that the game is called spirit of JUSTICE

I said in spoiler tags earlier that I thought it's really funny that everyone thinks 6-5 is going to switch to Phoenix at some point and it never does (aside from one brief investigation segment with him and Edgeworth just for fanservice's sake), even though in retrospect it's really obvious that this was set up to be Apollo's story. 6-2 was important for establishing Apollo has truly risen to the ranks of Phoenix's successor (which is, as you'll notice, a blatantly recurring theme throughout the game - pretty clever how even 6-4 echoes the themes that will run through 6-5 imo), then in 6-3 they drop that little hint that Apollo used to live in Khura'in with Dhurke, but even at that point it's not obvious that they're really going to take the story from Phoenix and give it to Apollo at the end. Even though the game is called Spirit of Justice.

Yeah, 6-5 has slowly and steadily worked its way up to my favorite case in the series. When you first beat it, it's not all that overwhelming, but the more you sit and think about it, the more you realize that it was super high-octane from start to finish and had multiple really really high points, the best of which is definitely the Dhurke reveal. I think it's the one time in AA5 or AA6 that they had a massive reveal like this during a court segment and didn't have the character think out loud to the player "boy I wonder if this happened" before making the player choose it. There's no lead up to it and you have to put it together completely on your own.

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MrSmartGuy posted...

Yeah, 6-5 has slowly and steadily worked its way up to my favorite case in the series. When you first beat it, it's not all that overwhelming, but the more you sit and think about it, the more you realize that it was super high-octane from start to finish and had multiple really really high points, the best of which is definitely the Dhurke reveal. I think it's the one time in AA5 or AA6 that they had a massive reveal like this during a court segment and didn't have the character think out loud to the player "boy I wonder if this happened" before making the player choose it. There's no lead up to it and you have to put it together completely on your own.

It's actually a little bit haunting that the words are basically coming out of Apollo's mouth before he's even really emotionally processed it - it hits really hard on a second playthrough that he's going through the motions of explaining what happened and then only breaks down afterwards

It is funny by the way how much this game totally reclaims Apollo's character - it makes sense for Anagram to be skeptical of how this game starts dropping Apollo backstory elements in, given how much Apollo got the short straw in AA5, only being playable for one filler case and getting a very small backstory thing with Clay Terran, and this game just decided to completely sell out to redeem his character arc and in my opinion, it worked. By the end of this game Apollo had surpassed Phoenix for me

I thought 6-5 was amazing from the start. The Apollo head-desk slam is one of the most gut-wrenching emotional moments in the series for me (don't ever use that animation again, just like how Phoenix's head in his hands animation should've never been used again after 2-4). I just loved watching him reclaim that love for Dhurke he had when he was a kid, just to have it ripped away right when he thought he had it back.

I also loved the progression of the second trial. If you pay attention, Phoenix seems to be one step ahead of Apollo in figuring things out near the start, and by the end of it, Apollo is the one surprising Phoenix Wright of all people by the things he figures out.

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LeonhartFour posted...

by the end of it, Apollo is the one surprising Phoenix Wright of all people by the things he figures out.

urgh

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it's okay that's allowed to happen

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Paratroopa1 posted...

By the way, has it clicked for you yet that the game is called spirit of JUSTICE

Hahaha derp

It most certainly did not click for me.

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Anagram posted...

Hahaha derp

It most certainly did not click for me.

It didn't click for me either until after I beat the game. It's one of the most genius 'hidden in plain sight' things

6-5 is my second favorite case. The first one is 2-4, but that one is kind of a different animal anyway.

6-5 aimed to take most elements that made 3-5 great (the super complicated spirit channeling puzzle, the final conclusion to a protagonist's arc) and improve them. And I think it nailed it.

Episode 6-6: The Sixening

• We start with a blonde lady in a wedding dress getting about to be killed by a guy, so she asks a time machine to send her back in time, which it promptly does. Dun dun dun?
• The return of Larry Butz! He brings in Blonde Lady, who's still in her wedding dress, and is thus ready to be a recruitable unit in Fire Emblem. Man. If ever there was a series that pivoted in tone but not gameplay, it's Fire Emblem.
• "I'll have you know I just created a BRAND NEW character, to moderate acclaim! He's mildly popular with 18 to 24-year-old women everywhere!" Larry created Harry Potter?
• I didn't expect the turnaround from composed to crying waterfalls into a frying pan, pretty nice. I like the domestic mannerisms she has, it's all very cute. This girl's mannerisms would make her perfect for Larry, which implies to be that the boyfriend she mentioned earlier will be the killer.
• I'll be honest, here. Ellen is channeling Kawakami hard here. It's unreal how much hotter the 'frazzled hair' versions of them are than the versions that are supposed to look attractive. Does anyone prefer Becky to Kawakami?
• Heheh, Maya's Edgeworth impression actually got me, too.
• Edgeworth, too, huh. And Maya takes back her position as teenage girl sidekick? I was wondering why Athena got instantly written out. I had assumed it was the Victorian aesthetics that the name "Turnabout Time Traveler" referred to, but now I understand. All we need are Gumshoe and Franziska, and we have the whole original core crew back.
• The murder weapon is a clock with a secret mechanism built in? C'mon. I get it, we're being nostalgic for the good old days. I'll riot if this case involves Gourd Lake, the Steel Samurai, or a metal detector.
• This Sephiroth-looking guy has an astonishingly high chance of being the killer.
• I know it's anime, and I know this is just one of those things you have to accept, but it's weird that the head butler and head servant are like 26 and 25? That's a job you get when you're fifty. This is like Legend of the Galactic Heroes where an admiral complains that he's turning 30.
• Okay, I'm going to try to stop referencing other games and books and anime, but no promises.
• I like how Larry's art has actually gotten better, that's a nice understated touch.
• "[Nick] may look like a nobody, but he can do some pretty amazing things!" These games really swing hard between "Phoenix is a nobody" and "The legendary Phoenix Wright, known throughout the land for legal prowess and his crazy hair."
• "Not even the most talented lawyer in the world can change reality itself." Nice sly time travel reference, I like it.

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