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azuarc 06/12/20 5:30:55 PM #51: |
Thank you for giving us your view. I really do appreciate that. I'd much rather hear from someone directly affected than from people speaking on behalf of other people. Many Native Americans prefer the term Indian, for instance, which runs counter to everything PC culture mandates.
I find it interesting you assume that use of gypsies in any media is negative, considering my experience in video games is that they're usually just depicted as traveling people in wagons, and a convenient way for the developers to put a "town" in the middle of nowhere. One of my earliest video game experiences was in Quest For Glory IV, where the gypsies and their culture become very important to the game (and not in a negative way.) So I've never held any kind of negative connotation to the word, which is why it was so shocking earlier when someone earlier in the thread said it was a slur. --- Congratulations to all the gurus, past and present, participating in the contest. Video Game Music Contest 14: Now in progress. Come join us! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Mac Arrowny 06/12/20 5:40:57 PM #52: |
azuarc posted...
I find it interesting you assume that use of gypsies in any media is negative, considering my experience in video games is that they're usually just depicted as traveling people in wagons That description's part of the problem, considering not all Romani are "traveling people in wagons." --- All the stars in the sky are waiting for you. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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BlackDra90n 06/12/20 5:46:37 PM #53: |
So I was doing some research into this and I found out the government of Canada lists it as "Roma (Gyspy)" in the census. Interesting.
Also, wow I did not know this word was derived from the word gypsy. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gyp --- ... Copied to Clipboard!
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LordoftheMorons 06/12/20 5:53:55 PM #54: |
I thought Crusade was supposed to be decently playable?
Unless I'm just confusing it with Balance because of the similar knights in the art? Anyway, I think some of these are a stretch, but whatever. --- Congrats to azuarc, GotD2 Guru champ! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Fastbreak 06/12/20 5:54:24 PM #55: |
BlackDra90n posted...
So I was doing some research into this and I found out the government of Canada lists it as "Roma (Gyspy)" in the census. Interesting. This one did use to bother me more. But I think most people are like you and don't get the connection. --- *Fastbreak Intensifies* *ScareChan Intensifies* ... Copied to Clipboard!
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#56 | Post #56 was unavailable or deleted. |
LordoftheMorons 06/12/20 6:02:36 PM #57: |
As for the 1488 thing, that is horrible and removing it is definitely the right move, but I thought the numbers were just by order of release and alphabetical within each set? 1487 is In the Eye of Chaos and 1489 is Juxtapose (both also from Legends), so I think it really was some terrible coincidence.
--- Congrats to azuarc, GotD2 Guru champ! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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BetrayedTangy 06/12/20 6:31:52 PM #58: |
BlackDra90n posted...
Also, wow I did not know this word was derived from the word gypsy. I actually didn't know this either, I always just thought it was spelled jip --- Congrats azuarc! You crushed it in the GotD2 Guru challenge! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Brayze_II 06/12/20 6:54:36 PM #59: |
Calling the card "Romani" and then showing a bunch of wagon people would also be, if not necessarily racist, then stereotypical and exoticist at minimum. That isn't guaranteed to be an issue, and there are plenty of conversations to be had regarding Romani culture, but Magic is about summoning monsters and casting spells, not complex politico-cultural struggles. So ok, fair
--- I'm am hungry I want some lasaga ... Copied to Clipboard!
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turbopuns3 06/12/20 7:00:31 PM #60: |
Hm. Ok then
I don't think it was necessary but I wouldn't lose sleep over it either. I really wonder though, if they didn't just multiply awareness of the issue by 1,000 by taking action on it in the first place I wonder how long this had been on the back of someone's mind at wizards before they finally did it. You know someone's been scratching their head about those once a year or so for three decades now. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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MoogleKupo141 06/12/20 7:27:21 PM #61: |
azuarc posted...
heres the thing so far these are very old cards that theyve banned and, crusade excluded, cards they would never have reprinted anyway, so theres basically no cost to WotC banning them whether or not there are more recent cards that could be deemed equally offensive to imprison, it seems really unlikely that they would ban anything anyone actually cares about unless it was somehow egregiously racist and I cant imagine a remotely recent card that would qualify I expect theyll ban a few other cards from the super early days, but that will almost certainly be the end of it. --- For your Azuarc . At least Kupo has class and doesn't MESSAGE the people -Dr Pizza ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Drakeryn 06/12/20 7:33:09 PM #62: |
BlackDra90n posted...
Also, wow I did not know this word was derived from the word gypsy. I remember we learned this in middle school. But gypsy itself being a slur I only heard about in the past few years. --- another place and time, without a great divide, and we could be flying deadly high ... Copied to Clipboard!
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banananor 06/12/20 7:44:18 PM #63: |
i know in the common american zeitgeist "Gypsy" basically meant "traveler", but when you eventually learn the real meaning of things you can sometimes decide to keep up with the times. Looking at the word as descriptive of a specific people just puts it in a different light.
come to think of it, if they had a card called "Pradesh Jews", that would be pretty awkward in a fantasy setting, too, even though the word jew isn't offensive --- You did indeed stab me in the back. However, you are only level one, whilst I am level 50. That means I should remain uninjured. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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GavsEvans123 06/13/20 6:35:07 AM #64: |
I imagine that if any cards get banned that remain useable in the current meta, or cards with effects for a specific type when there are other legal cards that offer the same effect for different types, that WotC could easily make new cards with the same effect as the banned ones to replace them.
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LordoftheMorons 06/13/20 6:38:26 AM #65: |
GavsEvans123 posted...
I imagine that if any cards get banned that remain useable in the current meta, or cards with effects for a specific type when there are other legal cards that offer the same effect for different types, that WotC could easily make new cards with the same effect as the banned ones to replace them.For current cards yes (though I would be surprised if any newish cards were offensive enough to ban); if they have to ban anything people care about in legacy, in many cases they won't be able to make functional reprints due to the reserve list (unless they've went back on that since I last payed attention to Magic?) --- Congrats to azuarc, GotD2 Guru champ! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Sceptilesolar 06/13/20 6:49:41 AM #66: |
No, it is true that, in the past, they have refused to make functional reprints of cards on the Reserved List. Not that anyone cares about Invoke Prejudice for non-racist reasons, but if that were somehow a card with a useful effect, it would be hard to replace it for this reason.
--- Just killing time until the world ends. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Raka_Putra 06/13/20 7:01:53 AM #67: |
Oh man, they banned 7 cards. Now they only have, like, what? 11,857 left?
--- Into the woods, but mind the past... Into the woods, but mind the future! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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MZero 06/13/20 8:41:37 AM #68: |
Raka_Putra posted...
Oh man, they banned 7 cards. Now they only have, like, what? 11,857 left? No one is complaining about a lack of cards, come on --- MZero, to the extreme I never saw azuarc coming, but he won the Guru! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ZeldaTPLink 06/13/20 8:41:46 AM #69: |
I feel like this is a good idea in theory but the fact this is a game where "white" and "black" cards are literally 40% of the cards available opens a slippery slope.
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The Mana Sword 06/13/20 8:44:21 AM #70: |
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bryans7 06/13/20 8:44:35 AM #71: |
ZeldaTPLink posted...
I feel like this is a good idea in theory but the fact this is a game where "white" and "black" cards are literally 40% of the cards available opens a slippery slope. Hey, artifact decks are completely viable! There are dozens of us! DOZENS! --- ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ZeldaTPLink 06/13/20 8:49:19 AM #72: |
The Mana Sword posted...
slippery slope arguments are the fucking worst I mean I'm not trying to say we shouldn't fight rascism. But my question is, at which point do you decide that a card that says "destroy all black creatures" is rascist or not? Because that's like a sizable portion of the gameplay. I feel like this needs more objectivity, that's my point. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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The Mana Sword 06/13/20 8:52:53 AM #73: |
this may shock you but people are capable of nuance
cleanse wasnt chosen because it says destroy all black creatures. it was removed due to the the implications of the text combined with the name. its not really that hard to find the line. --- ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ZeldaTPLink 06/13/20 8:57:02 AM #74: |
The Mana Sword posted...
this may shock you but people are capable of nuance Look, you don't need to be a dick. I'm not one of those people who complain every time someone tries to fight rascism. I'm raising what I feel is a logical concern. People are only capable of nuance if they raise the need to look for nuance in the first place. I feel like the cards in this selection are all rascist enough, but I'm asking if they are just gonna restrict to this type of card or not. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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The Mana Sword 06/13/20 9:00:12 AM #75: |
I dont understand the concern. what do you think, theyre going to ban every card that has the word black or white in it? no, thats not going to happen.
and Im pretty sure cleanse is the only card in the game that has the text destroy all black creatures anyway. --- ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Sceptilesolar 06/13/20 9:07:20 AM #76: |
Mass Calcify destroys all nonwhite creatures, which is arguably worse in that respect. I don't think white and black being in-game terms is a problem by itself though, so it doesn't really matter.
--- Just killing time until the world ends. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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redrocket 06/13/20 9:23:47 AM #77: |
The Mana Sword posted...
this may shock you but people are capable of nuance What a ridiculous argument. If people were capable of nuance than no one would have ever considered Cleanse to even be racist in the first place. --- It's like paying for bubble wrap. -transience on Final Fantasy: All the Bravest ... Copied to Clipboard!
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SeabassDebeste 06/13/20 9:31:12 AM #79: |
"cleanse" has historically racist context
MTG exists in the real world and is written by re people, which means real world context also applies turbopuns3 posted... I really wonder though, if they didn't just multiply awareness of the issue by 1,000 by taking action on it in the first place doesn't seem like an issue to me --- yet all azuarc of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness ... Copied to Clipboard!
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redrocket 06/13/20 9:45:19 AM #80: |
SeabassDebeste posted...
"cleanse" has historically racist context Real world context applies. But the context of the card within the game should also apply. Which if you do shows that it is not racist within that context. Applying this logic is a little thing known as....... ....... .....WAIT FOR IT..... ....NUANCE. So people who are saying, LOL HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF THIS THING CALLED NUANCE????? are tools. --- It's like paying for bubble wrap. -transience on Final Fantasy: All the Bravest ... Copied to Clipboard!
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SeabassDebeste 06/13/20 9:52:11 AM #81: |
"just ignore real world context" is not nuance
--- yet all azuarc of all sorts are more or less capricious and unreliable - they live in the varying outer weather, and they inhale its fickleness ... Copied to Clipboard!
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The Mana Sword 06/13/20 9:53:53 AM #82: |
you know its possible for the card to have both a valid in-game mechanical explanation and still have offensive racial overtones at the same time right
the two arent mutually exclusive. so like, even if the the in-game context is fine its still worth removing --- ... Copied to Clipboard!
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UshiromiyaEva 06/13/20 10:01:41 AM #83: |
redrocket posted...
Real world context applies. But the context of the card within the game should also apply. Which if you do shows that it is not racist within that context. Applying this logic is a little thing known as....... Someone here is certainly a tool. --- ACAB ... Copied to Clipboard!
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redrocket 06/13/20 10:09:58 AM #84: |
The Mana Sword posted...
the two arent mutually exclusive. I never said they were. Im saying your claim, its not hard to find the line, is BS. The line is arbitrary. --- It's like paying for bubble wrap. -transience on Final Fantasy: All the Bravest ... Copied to Clipboard!
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masterplum 06/13/20 10:10:24 AM #85: |
Its not like they banned playable cards because of a perverse incentive to get people to buy new cards. These cards are all pretty unplayable and fairly racist.
fair next --- ... Copied to Clipboard!
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DeepsPraw 06/13/20 10:14:55 AM #86: |
SeabassDebeste posted...
"cleanse" has historically racist context Its not ethnic cleanse I suppose we should ban all cleaning products as well --- pepsi for tv-game ... Copied to Clipboard!
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The Mana Sword 06/13/20 10:17:02 AM #87: |
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azuarc 06/13/20 12:45:28 PM #88: |
I agree with DeepsPraw and some of what redrocket said.
You can't say people are capable of finding nuance and therefore there is an easy line to draw. The line to people who are acutely sensitive to these things is going to be in a very different place. I would have never complained about Cleanse on my own, or batted an eye at it. Even with it being highlighted, I was only able to see what they're attempting to argue, and I still didn't agree with it. Wherever this mysterious line is, I don't feel Cleanse is across it. --- Congratulations to all the gurus, past and present, participating in the contest. Video Game Music Contest 14: Now in progress. Come join us! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Hbthebattle 06/13/20 12:54:06 PM #89: |
DeepsPraw posted...
When you have the word "cleanse" with the power "destroy all x of one type", and you have cards with similar effects named "crusade" and "jihad", I think it's pretty obvious what the implication is --- Congrats to azuarc for winning the GotD Guru! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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DeepsPraw 06/13/20 1:05:54 PM #90: |
Hbthebattle posted...
you have cards with similar effects named "crusade" and "jihad", I think it's pretty obvious what the implication is that's just the Kuleshov effect. Of course you're going to draw implications when it's placed next to more egregious cards and you're explicitly told to look for racial biases. It's just typical fantasy "light versus dark", "preists versus demons" stuff. Cleanse does not have the same intent as Invoke Prejudice --- pepsi for tv-game ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Hbthebattle 06/13/20 1:09:35 PM #91: |
DeepsPraw posted...
Are you honestly acting like no one is going to look funny at Cleanse: Destroy all black creatures without being prompted --- Congrats to azuarc for winning the GotD Guru! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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azuarc 06/13/20 1:14:06 PM #92: |
Hbthebattle posted...
Are you honestly acting like no one is going to look funny at Cleanse: Destroy all black creatures without being prompted I just said 3 posts earlier that I didn't. --- Congratulations to all the gurus, past and present, participating in the contest. Video Game Music Contest 14: Now in progress. Come join us! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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DeepsPraw 06/13/20 1:15:26 PM #93: |
Hbthebattle posted...
Are you honestly acting like no one is going to look funny at Cleanse: Destroy all black creatures without being prompted Before this week, the only people looking at 25 year old Magic cards are Magic fans, and they're going to know what those words mean in the context of the game. Could a random person draw the wrong conclusion? Sure. Is that a reason to ban the card from tournament play? I don't think so --- pepsi for tv-game ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Safer_777 06/13/20 1:16:32 PM #94: |
I see all these cards and I don't understand where the problem is. Guess this is an American thing or something. I mean you do know this is fantasy game with fantastic characters and all these aren't real right?
--- So why we exist? What happens when we stop existing? Azuarc the best Guru of the 2020 Contest! Nice job man! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Hbthebattle 06/13/20 1:18:20 PM #95: |
azuarc posted...
You didnt. That doesnt mean that others wouldnt notice something was off immediately --- Congrats to azuarc for winning the GotD Guru! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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azuarc 06/13/20 1:18:47 PM #96: |
Safer_777 posted...
Guess this is an American thing or something. Other than the gypsy card, yes. But it's also a game produced by an American company. --- Congratulations to all the gurus, past and present, participating in the contest. Video Game Music Contest 14: Now in progress. Come join us! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Hbthebattle 06/13/20 1:19:55 PM #97: |
DeepsPraw posted...
Ok, so youve switched your argument from Its not racist to It doesnt matter if its racist since no one is looking --- Congrats to azuarc for winning the GotD Guru! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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azuarc 06/13/20 1:21:47 PM #98: |
Hbthebattle posted...
You didnt. That doesnt mean that others wouldnt notice something was off immediately azuarc posted... I would have never complained about Cleanse on my own, or batted an eye at it. Even with it being highlighted, I was only able to see what they're attempting to argue, and I still didn't agree with it. And as DeepsPraw points out, nobody who has played Magic across the almost 30 years its existed would see anything about white and black creatures as anything other than a part of the game's lexicon. Only someone stumbling into Magic anew would be bothered. --- Congratulations to all the gurus, past and present, participating in the contest. Video Game Music Contest 14: Now in progress. Come join us! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Hbthebattle 06/13/20 1:24:04 PM #99: |
azuarc posted...
Because those don't exist, apparently --- Congrats to azuarc for winning the GotD Guru! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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azuarc 06/13/20 1:25:23 PM #100: |
Hbthebattle posted...
Because those don't exist, apparently They wouldn't be playing cards from over 20 years ago, most of which I'm guessing haven't been reprinted any time recently. --- Congratulations to all the gurus, past and present, participating in the contest. Video Game Music Contest 14: Now in progress. Come join us! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Hbthebattle 06/13/20 1:28:30 PM #101: |
azuarc posted...
If no one was actually using the cards, what is the issue with recognizing that they may have made things with some unfortunate implications in the past? Why make a fuss about their removal if no one was using them. --- Congrats to azuarc for winning the GotD Guru! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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