Current Events > I don't agree with the people who say "Everybody should vote"...

(+) Yeah! (+)

Frolex posted...

Then you don't see the value in democracy.

I don't see the correlation between "blindly encouraging people to vote isn't productive if they don't actually know what they're voting for" and "you don't see the value in democracy".

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SandTarpit posted...

I am arguing in really, really good faith. I'm arguing on the correct side of history: against poll taxes, and literacy tests, and education tests.

You're the one arguing in bullshit faith, buddy. You're actually, genuinely arguing that people need a certain level of intelligence and knowledge to vote

*Rolls eyes*

So you're 100% certain, huh.

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EVERYONE SHOULD VOTE

Yes some people will be uninformed but it will still be better representation than how it happens currently.

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Evening_Dragon posted...

Good question. Why are you being disingenuous?

nice 1 m8

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SandTarpit posted...

You're the one arguing in bullshit faith, buddy. You're actually, genuinely arguing that people need a certain level of intelligence and knowledge to vote

I never said that, which negates the entirety of your argument.


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Stop being a politician with your "I never said THAT" Trumpist crap.

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See, you got caught.

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SandTarpit posted...

Stop being a politician with your "I never said THAT" Trumpist crap.

Put on a mask, go outside, and get some fresh air.

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SandTarpit posted...

Stop being a politician with your "I never said THAT" Trumpist crap.

Go ahead and quote where he said it. I'll put a bet on you just having poor understanding of this language.

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the0rebirth posted...

I don't see the correlation between "blindly encouraging people to vote isn't productive if they don't actually know what they're voting for" and "you don't see the value in democracy".

picking and choosing who's votes you want counted is not democracy. if you want to change the will of the people, you do it through political activism, not selectively enfranchising the population

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I would add that if everybody is made to vote, the country on the whole would naturally become more knowledgeable about the candidates and the process.

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the0rebirth posted...

I don't see the correlation between "blindly encouraging people to vote isn't productive if they don't actually know what they're voting for" and "you don't see the value in democracy".

Would you suggest most people don't have enough knowledge to vote? Because that appears to be the implication.

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"Uninformed people shouldn't vote" was a very common sentiment in the south when blacks first gained the right to vote, and again a very common sentiment when women were trying to get the right to vote.

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the0rebirth 30 minutes ago#18
undefined posted...

This.

Uninformed votes are counterintuitive to democracy. People who insist that every single person should vote usually say so because either they hold voting in some moral high ground for themselves, or because like TC said, they secretly want you to vote for the same things they do.

The responses in this thread are a great example lol.
Lmao pretty much.

Okay, there, I quoted him saying it. "Uninformed voters (see: uneducated voters) are counter-intuitive to (see: are against the soul of) Democracy

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Evening_Dragon posted...

Go ahead and quote where he said it. I'll put a bet on you just having poor understanding of this language.

What do I win?

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Kuuko posted...

"Uninformed people shouldn't vote" was a very common sentiment in the south when blacks first gained the right to vote, and again a very common sentiment when women were trying to get the right to vote.

Yup

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In directly quoting the person's post that said Uninformed votes are against democracy and then agreeing with "Lmao this"

he said Unintelligent and downtrodden/poor voters are ignorable in a Democracy

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Frolex posted...

picking and choosing who's votes you want counted is not democracy. if you want to change the will of the people, you do it through political activism, not selectively enfranchising the population

Repeating yourself, now. No one said he should pick and choose who votes.

The argument is that some people should not vote, not that some people shouldn't have the right to vote.

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I live in Texas, so I'm here to tell y'all:

Evening_Dragon, phoenix0reborn: Y'all are as bad as the old Southern whites who bullshitted their way through the reasoning why voting is bad in a Democracy.

Have a good one!

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SandTarpit posted...

Okay, there, I quoted him saying it. "Uninformed voters (see: uneducated voters) are counter-intuitive to (see: are against the soul of) Democracy

This line is not doing what you were looking to quote, which is:

You're actually, genuinely arguing that people need a certain level of intelligence and knowledge to vote

The capacity to see the difference between "need" and "should" is very important.

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joenumbers seems like someone likely to vote for trump so i am fine with him not voting.

anyone that opposed fascism/racism/ignorance should absolutely vote out the guy that stands for all those things

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SandTarpit posted...

I live in Texas, so I'm here to tell y'all:

Evening_Dragon, phoenix0reborn: Y'all are as bad as the old Southern whites who bullshitted their way through the reasoning why voting is bad in a Democracy.

Have a good one.

You're wrong, though.

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Evening_Dragon posted...

Repeating yourself, now. No one said he should pick and choose who votes.

The argument is that some people should not vote, not that some people shouldn't have the right to vote.

"we don't want to make sure only the wrong people don't vote, we just want to make sure only the right people do vote. it's actually the definition of perfect democracy."

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Frolex posted...

"we don't want to make sure only the wrong people don't vote, we just want to make sure only the right people do vote. it's actually the definition of perfect democracy."

Evening_Dragon posted...

Repeating yourself, now. No one said he should pick and choose who votes.

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Frolex posted...

picking and choosing who's votes you want counted is not democracy.

Again, not my argument.

I'm arguing that it's a bad idea to blindly encourage everyone to vote, because many people don't understand politics enough to make well-informed decisions. Would you want an uneducated doctor to perform your heart surgery? How about an uneducated dentist to fill your cavities? It's a better idea to encourage people to arm themselves with facts and information first, and then vote on who they think is best for the country.

So, to reiterate, I'm NOT proposing that ignorant people shouldn't have the right to vote. I'm positing that it's not a good idea to just blindly encourage the entire country to vote, regardless of whether they can make well-informed decisions.

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where did i use the word "pick" in that post? stop lyin on me bro

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Frolex posted...

where did i use the word "pick" in that post? stop lyin on me bro

It's right there in post 60. Go ahead and edit it now.

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Frolex posted...
"I was trolling the whole time! Really!"

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the0rebirth posted...

Again, not my argument.

I'm arguing that it's a bad idea to blindly encourage everyone to vote, because many people don't understand politics enough to make well-informed decisions. Would you want an uneducated doctor to perform your heart surgery? How about an uneducated dentist to fill your cavities? It's a better idea to encourage people to arm themselves with facts and information first, and then vote on who they think is best for the country.

So, to reiterate, I'm NOT proposing that ignorant people shouldn't have the right to vote. I'm positing that it's not a good idea to just blindly encourage the entire country to vote, regardless of whether they can make well-informed decisions.

Filling cavities and performing heart surgeries are not inalienable civil liberties. If you don't consider representation of 100% of the population to be inherently valuable, then you don't value the principles of democracy.

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Evening_Dragon posted...

Repeating yourself, now. No one said he should pick and choose who votes.

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the0rebirth posted...

It's right there in post 60. Go ahead and edit it now.

>"in that post"

your turn to edit champ

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Frolex posted...

Filling cavities and performing heart surgeries are not inalienable civil liberties. If you don't consider representation of 100% of the population to be inherently valuable, then you don't value the principles of democracy.

If a person votes without knowing what they're voting for, then what exactly is being represented on their behalf?

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Evening_Dragon posted...

Imagine not being able to fake quote in 2020 A.D.

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You'll never be able to directly answer his simple question, I'm just waiting for the melty.

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the0rebirth posted...

If a person votes without knowing what they're voting for, then what exactly is being represented on their behalf?

and on what judgement do you decide who does and doesn't know that they are voting for?

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Evening_Dragon posted...

You'll never be able to directly answer his simple question, I'm just waiting for the melty.

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I assume people would go out and do their own independent research before voting, but maybe im to optimistic.


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Frolex posted...

and on what judgement do you decide who does and doesn't know that they are voting for?

So basically, you're either

A.) trolling
B.) too obtuse to comprehend basic logic

I'm not going to keep simplifying the same sentiments over & over again. If a person came up to me and said, "I don't know the first thing about politics, but I'm gonna vote anyway because society tells me I should", then I would tell that person that I think it's a bad idea to vote from a place of such ignorance, but I wouldn't actually stop them from voting. It's that simple. We should be encouraging people to thoroughly research the candidates before voting, instead of just telling them to vote no matter what. One enables an informed decision; the other is an empty platitude.

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the0rebirth posted...

So basically, you're either

A.) trolling
B.) too obtuse to comprehend basic logic

I'm not going to keep simplifying the same sentiments over & over again. If a person came up to me and said, "I don't know the first thing about politics, but I'm gonna vote anyway because society tells me I should", then I would tell that person that I think it's a bad idea to vote from a place of such ignorance, but I wouldn't actually stop them from voting. It's that simple. We should be encouraging people to thoroughly research the candidates before voting, instead of just telling them to vote no matter what. One enables an informed decision; the other is an empty platitude.

engaging in activism to better inform the public and ensuring a more democratic voter turnout are not mutually exclusive goals. you value the former but not that latter, and that's fine. others value both.

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Frolex posted...

engaging in activism to better inform the public and ensuring a more democratic voter turnout are not mutually exclusive goals. you value the former but not that latter, and that's fine. others value both.

I don't think it's a good idea to vote from a place of ignorance. My argument is, has always been, and most likely always will be that simple. Politics is serious stuff. It's not about scoring participation points; it's about trying to secure a victory for people we think can actually run a country full of millions, whose lives will be impacted by our government's competence, ethics, etc....

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joe40001 posted...

I'd agree with the statement "everybody who feels they have a solid informed perspective should vote."

You can have an informed perspective and not like either option.
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But yeah the original reason for the "everyone go out and vote" mantra is specifically to benefit the democrats because stats have shown that the more Democrats vote the more likely they are to win (because Democrats policies tend to benefit "more" people than Republican policies), hence why you are seeing Republicans deliberately doing voter suppression shit (like I'm glad they're not trying to disguise it anymore). I think it's good that more people are getting interested in politics and stop being so idle about it, I also agree that voting on ignorance is definitely one of the worst things you can do, especially on the state measures. I remember it took me about 2-3 hours just to research about each individual measure because the wording can be tricky and ultimately I always try to find what is the ultimate bottomline/intention for the people who originally propose the proposition/measures. Unfortunately I know a lot of people either don't have the time to do that amount of research or rather spend their freetime doing something else entirely.

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the0rebirth posted...

I don't think it's a good idea to vote from a place of ignorance. My argument is, has always been, and most likely always will be that simple. Politics is serious stuff. It's not about scoring participation points; it's about trying to secure a victory for people we think can actually run a country full of millions of people, whose lives will be impacted by their competence, ethics, intelligence, etc....

that's nice.
ensuring only the best candidates win is not a function of democracy. you're placing value on the positive outcomes it brings, not the system itself.

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Frolex posted...

that's nice.
ensuring only the best candidates win is not a function of democracy. you're placing value on the positive outcomes it brings, not the system itself.

Who "the best candidates" even are will vary from person to person. Regardless, you should always be able to articulate why you voted for a candidate. If you can't, that's a BIG problem. If your reason is only "because they told me to", that's a BIG problem. You're focusing too much on the idea of democracy itself, and not nearly enough on the people within it actually making educated decisions. The irony of this is that America isn't even really so much a democracy as it is a constitutional federal republic.

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the0rebirth posted...

Who "the best candidates" even are will vary from person to person. Regardless, you should always be able to articulate why you voted for a candidate. If you can't, that's a BIG problem. You're placing too much value on the idea of democracy itself, instead of the people within it actually making informed decisions.

see, there you go. you don't value you democracy itself, so you're only interested in seeing the right people vote. other people do value the system. other people do value the system. it's that simple.

the0rebirth posted...

The irony of this is thayt America isn't even really so much a democracy as it is a constitutional federal republic.

a constitutional federal republic is a democracy


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Frolex posted...

see, there you go. you don't value you democracy itself, so you're only interested in seeing the right people vote-

Alright, let's just stop. It's clear that this is how you want to perceive my perspective, and that everything I say is going to get processed through the "you hate democracy" filter in your head. So, this is no longer productive. Agree to disagree.


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the0rebirth posted...

Alright, let's just stop. It's clear that this is how you want to perceive my perspective, and that everything I say is going to get processed through the "you hate democracy" filter in your head. So, this is no longer productive. Agree to disagree.

has nothing to do with any "filter". representation is by definition a core tenet of democracy. if you dont see inherent value in that tenet, you dont see inherent value in democracy

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Tenlaar posted...

Saying that everybody should vote is shorthand for saying that everybody should be an active participant in the process. That includes taking the responsibility of making yourself informed.

This is true, which is why I'm not voting. Because politics bores me to tears, therefore I shouldn't vote
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Frolex posted...

has nothing to do with any "filter". representation is by definition a core tenet of democracy. if you dont see inherent value in that tenet, you dont see inherent value in democracy

I'm never going to feel bad about thinking people should only vote if it's coming from an informed place. If someone says they voted for Trump because they like his wig, or that they voted for Biden because they think stuttering's sexy, then I'm gonna take issue with that. I'm allowed to think that's stupid and harmful. You're allowed to disagree.

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joe40001 posted...

Firstly it usually assumes the person is going to vote to agrees with you

Wrong

joe40001 posted...

People who know they are ignorant shouldn't vote.

"When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. There is only suffering for others. It is the same when you are stupid."


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