Board 8 > America is under attack.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Inviso posted...

I'm not changing the discussion. I'm making the point that you can say, all you want, that you want stronger border protections because you think it keeps us safer (I'd argue it really doesn't, and there's not a whole lot we can do about that, but that's neither here nor there), but the fact is that the people in power (Republicans and Trump, for whom I'm sure the argument of border security was a major selling point of your vote in 2016) who are using that argument as a central part of their platform...don't really care about border security. If they actually care about protecting our sovereignty, they clearly don't care about protecting against the real threats...I mean, they're putting a lot of emphasis in places that are ineffective if so.

With that in mind, I'm asking that you question what motivations THOSE people have for pushing for "border security", since they seem to have a very narrow focus on what that constitutes. And once you've examined THEIR motivations, I'm asking that you reevaluate your own stance. Note, I'm not trying to say YOU are a racist or anything. I'm making the case that the people in charge of this whole debate have taken a baseline level of racial animus and wrapped that up in the safe packaging of "border security". And then they've sold you, a person who wants the country to be safe and secure, a bill of goods that makes you think that A. our country is far more endangered from outside threats than we actually are, and B. increased border security will protect us more than other methods.

Stronger borders was a priority if I think every single president in the last 20+ years, probably way longer. I feel confident to say there is actually a sizable issue with illegal immigration going on that all those in power recognize with their informed position. You keep saying you don't think there is and it's not worth it, etc. However, you really don't have a reliable position on it, especially when you allude to racism at the top of the decision making when this is a pretty shared view from our presidents regardless of party.

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

you think trump is an enlightened centrist or something?

holy shit you finally get it

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foolm0r0n posted...

holy shit you finally get it

nah, he's alt-right.

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https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/07/us/insurrection-capitol-extremist-groups-invs/index.html

Antifa.

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Corrik7 posted...

Stronger borders was a priority if I think every single president in the last 20+ years, probably way longer. I feel confident to say there is actually a sizable issue with illegal immigration going on that all those in power recognize with their informed position. You keep saying you don't think there is and it's not worth it, etc. However, you really don't have a reliable position on it, especially when you allude to racism at the top of the decision making when this is a pretty shared view from our presidents regardless of party.

Note, I never said illegal immigration wasn't a problem. I said that the focus seems to be entirely on the minimal amount of illegal immigration across our southern border, rather than the far greater problem of illegal immigration in the form of people overstaying legal visas. But we don't invest nearly as much time or energy into fixing THAT problem as we do in making sure that Latin Americans can't get into this country. And the reason I call out the GOP rather than the Democrats (and I fully admit that Obama deported MASSIVE numbers of undocumented immigrants) is because the GOP openly supported and elected a president whose immigration policy involved calling Mexicans murderers and rapists and drug dealers (and some good people as well), which really pulled back the curtain and the quiet part out loud, as it were.

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Jakyl25 posted...

The need for social acceptance is the root of the problem it seems!

it's definitely a major component and does explain some of the reaction had with these fringe trumpers because they know they're not accepted on many social fronts.

another element is the desire of truth/knowledge. if this is high, you will naturally find your way out of extremes. if it's low, you're gonna be in one no matter what. this element won't be that easy to deal with in adults which is why ideas like "children should question things" are important since it's a good habit you can install at a young age and honestly fits more in line with development anyway.

if you want to de-escalate and change the way people in a cult think the answer is consistently MORE exposure and more social connections. it's a similar concept with people in bad relationships too: the more you restrict what a person knows and is exposed to, the more you restrict what they can think. the inverse of that is also true: the more you're exposed to different ideas and beliefs, the less likely you are to fall into the fringes of any of them. this is also why people like Daryl Davis or Jordan Peterson are very, very good to have, they can pull people back or out of some pretty fucked up territory.

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Isnt Jordan Peterson in some pretty fucked up territory himself right now?
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i mean health-wise yeah. is currently recovering now but was given benzodiazepines (vallium, xanax, etc) as a treatment for some autoimmune issues, his body instantly got addicted to it, addiction escalated and there was no good treatment available. ended up going to some random russian center for a few months after having tried what canada and the US had and nothing worked. over there doctors supposedly told his family that they brought him to die.

if there's some social drama, not that i'm aware of. it's one of those addictions i didn't know could be as bad as it gets in terms of withdrawal or effects it could have on the body.

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Inviso posted...

Note, I never said illegal immigration wasn't a problem. I said that the focus seems to be entirely on the minimal amount of illegal immigration across our southern border, rather than the far greater problem of illegal immigration in the form of people overstaying legal visas. But we don't invest nearly as much time or energy into fixing THAT problem as we do in making sure that Latin Americans can't get into this country. And the reason I call out the GOP rather than the Democrats (and I fully admit that Obama deported MASSIVE numbers of undocumented immigrants) is because the GOP openly supported and elected a president whose immigration policy involved calling Mexicans murderers and rapists and drug dealers (and some good people as well), which really pulled back the curtain and the quiet part out loud, as it were.

They should be taking care of that also. It's a part of our border, even if inside the United States already. That's an additional thing not an instead of thing.

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Corrik7 posted...

They should be taking care of that also. It's a part of our border, even if inside the United States already. That's an additional thing not an instead of thing.

And again, I'm asking WHY it's currently an "instead of" thing instead of an "additional" thing?

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Inviso posted...

And again, I'm asking WHY it's currently an "instead of" thing instead of an "additional" thing?

It shouldn't be. You said this is about what I believe. You are making it about what others have done.

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Corrik7 posted...

It shouldn't be. You said this is about what I believe. You are making it about what others have done.

It is about what you believe. I'm making the point that perhaps your beliefs are based upon a foundation of people providing you with inaccurate or outright false information that masks the true nature of the policies they're pushing. You've made quite a few posts in recent months about how you're the only sane person in your current sphere; that your co-workers and your fiance and your family have all bought into the Trump cult hook, line, and sinker. My argument is that this isn't a NEW thing. Trump didn't just magically transform the Republican Party into some new form. It's the same as its always been...just more aggressive.

With that in mind, I'm asking you to consider that perhaps your beliefs on immigration are based on information originally imparted unto you by a culture of people couching racism in this idea (which sounds fine, as dogwhistles usually do) that our borders need extreme protection from outside threats. That perhaps what you view as threatening has been blown out of proportion in order to trigger more of a fear response and get you onboard with racist tactics in the name of national security.

My points of the GOP ignoring certain aspects of illegal immigration in favor of others is meant to indicate where their REAL focus is. If their focus is entirely on keeping Mexicans from crossing the border rather than instead of (or in addition to as the case may be) more prominent forms of illegal immigration, perhaps their goals are less about national security and are more racially motivated. And if their goals are racially motivated enough that they're not ACTUALLY worrying about national security, perhaps there ISN'T really a threat to our sovereignty that requires constant vigilance and additional efforts towards border protection.

All I'm saying here is that your beliefs may be a product of your environment. I know mine were. I voted McCain in 2008 after all and was a Republican well into my years at college, because that was the familial environment I lived in. Those were the influences I had. There was a time when I was pro-life (for fucked up reasons, too). Again, I don't know how many of the people you've mentioned in recent months have been a part of your life for a long time, but if you've been surrounded by these people and a similar culture for long enough, perhaps you've adopted certain beliefs based on that influence that are not based in reality.

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Illegal immigration is a crime. It undermines our legal immigration systems. You trying to pivot to racism does not change this. Was Bill Clinton racially motivated? Because my political beliefs basically were instilled around age 12 to 16 via a large dose of reading history. So this is the tail end of the Clinton going into the Bush era. I remember the Bush-Gore lead up well. Supporting Bush. Without the real benefit of political news or such in me forming this political beliefs.

You want to find a racist angle to show a moral argument, when there isn't one. I'm not racist. I give a shit less what race anyone is. I give a shit less who is coming through our borders, whether they are Swedish Sex Goddesses giving free goodies away or if they are some other countries disgusting necrophiliacs. The point is that it is illegal. It is against the law. It undermines the system. It creates potential for foreign threat whether physical or economical. It degrades structure of society (with states counting them towards their elector counts). We should take any and all avenues that are feasible. Do I expect to stop ALL illegal immigration. No. That's a dream. We however can do a lot better than we have been doing.

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People on Twitter saying they should have actually stormed Area 51 if this is all it took to get into the Capitol Building. lmfao

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

the fact that you're praising trump's policies as being "relatively on point" is further proof that you're not in the middle. you think trump is an enlightened centrist or something?

He is a centrist on policy, no doubt. Enlightened.....I wouldn't use that word to describe any centrist.

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Corrik7 posted...

People on Twitter saying they should have actually stormed Area 51 if this is all it took to get into the Capitol Building. lmfao

I saw this, thought it was hilarious

We gotta see them aliens

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If that's your argument, then I just don't think we're ever going to see eye-to-eye. I mean, my next point would be that your views on crime are similarly instilled by your environment and that we don't live in a fantasy world where all crime is stamped out. Rather, the only crimes that are punished are those committed by those not powerful enough to fight them, and the fact that we focus on victimless crimes by the poor and powerless rather than going after the powerful speaks volumes about what our ACTUAL priorities are when it comes to criminal justice.

Furthermore, we've dramatically restricted options for people to LEGALLY immigrate to this country which directly leads to MORE illegal immigration, which seems like it should be a problem. Which again, really makes it feel like it's less about protecting sovereignty and our borders (and maintaining law and order, since we could easily just loosen restrictions), and more about making sure very specific people can't get in.

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Corrik7 posted...

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/07/us/insurrection-capitol-extremist-groups-invs/index.html

Antifa.

???????
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Inviso posted...

If that's your argument, then I just don't think we're ever going to see eye-to-eye. I mean, my next point would be that your views on crime are similarly instilled by your environment and that we don't live in a fantasy world where all crime is stamped out. Rather, the only crimes that are punished are those committed by those not powerful enough to fight them, and the fact that we focus on victimless crimes by the poor and powerless rather than going after the powerful speaks volumes about what our ACTUAL priorities are when it comes to criminal justice.

Furthermore, we've dramatically restricted options for people to LEGALLY immigrate to this country which directly leads to MORE illegal immigration, which seems like it should be a problem. Which again, really makes it feel like it's less about protecting sovereignty and our borders (and maintaining law and order, since we could easily just loosen restrictions), and more about making sure very specific people can't get in.

Honestly the legal immigration and illegal immigrations may be linked. It may be a chicken and egg scenario. Does increasing legal immigration reduce illegal immigration? Not entirely sure it matters. Does more illegal immigration mean more reluctance towards legal immigration because what is slotted for immigration is being taken up illegally? Possibly.

Obviously we want a nice determined number for legal immigration that makes the most economic and moral sense. It doesn't have to be a low number. However, there is nothing wrong also with weighting it towards immigrants that can provide more societal benefit to the citizens in the United States, such as able to hold a steady job, education, lack of criminal history, etc.

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htaeD posted...

???????

/s

Get it now?


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Corrik7 posted...

Honestly the legal immigration and illegal immigrations may be linked. It may be a chicken and egg scenario. Does increasing legal immigration reduce illegal immigration? Not entirely sure it matters. Does more illegal immigration mean more reluctance towards legal immigration because what is slotted for immigration is being taken up illegally? Possibly.

Obviously we want a nice determined number for legal immigration that makes the most economic and moral sense. It doesn't have to be a low number. However, there is nothing wrong also with weighting it towards immigrants that can provide more societal benefit to the citizens in the United States, such as able to hold a steady job, education, lack of criminal history, etc.

Can you at least understand the argument of how that's fucked up? Like, America is literally a country founded on immigrants, and throughout the mid-late 1800s into the early 1900s, our whole thing was opening our doors to accept anyone who wanted to come here (and then they were allowed to succeed or fail on their own merits). Yet nowadays, now that the immigrants are brown (maybe it's coincidental that the policy harms minorities or maybe it's intentionally racist...we're obviously going to disagree on that), we need to have restrictions as to who is allowed to become an American?

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Corrik do you disagree with the Statue of Liberty quote about immigration?
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Corrik7 posted...

People on Twitter saying they should have actually stormed Area 51 if this is all it took to get into the Capitol Building. lmfao

They should've Naruto run inside to clap dem alien cheeks.

Alas.

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I want to stress that I cant verify this is true. But thought it was worth sharing in case it is

https://twitter.com/bicchierileone/status/1347154677129994241?s=21
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Inviso posted...

Can you at least understand the argument of how that's fucked up? Like, America is literally a country founded on immigrants, and throughout the mid-late 1800s into the early 1900s, our whole thing was opening our doors to accept anyone who wanted to come here (and then they were allowed to succeed or fail on their own merits). Yet nowadays, now that the immigrants are brown (maybe it's coincidental that the policy harms minorities or maybe it's intentionally racist...we're obviously going to disagree on that), we need to have restrictions as to who is allowed to become an American?

It's impossible to let anyone you want in. Another utopian dream.


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Corrik7 posted...

It's impossible to let anyone you want in. Another utopian dream.

Why? Theres plenty of room.
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Corrik7 posted...

It's impossible to let anyone you want in. Another utopian dream.

We LITERALLY did this just over a hundred years ago. My point is that we've now made the decision to arbitrarily limit immigration from specific groups in a way that our ancestors (who HAPPENED to be white Europeans) were not limited. Can you not at least understand that it looks fucked up to essentially pull the ladder up behind you after you've already gotten into the clubhouse?

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Corrik7 posted...

It's impossible to let anyone you want in. Another utopian dream.

It was like this for over 100 years after the Revolutionary War, let alone everything before that.

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Inviso posted...

Can you not at least understand that it looks fucked up to essentially pull the ladder up behind you after you've already gotten into the clubhouse?

Conservatism!

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Jakyl25 posted...

Why? Theres plenty of room.

No there isn't. And, it would completely destroy the country. You can't fiscally support that many that quickly. Logistics for food would be insane and starvation would happen. Complete collapse of infrastructure and lack of it in areas. Social nets would collapse. It would be insanity.

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Corrik7 posted...

No there isn't. And, it would completely destroy the country. You can't fiscally support that many that quickly. Logistics for food would be insane and starvation would happen. Complete collapse of infrastructure and lack of it in areas. Social nets would collapse. It would be insanity.

Why is it a utopian dream when we say that we should just let in anyone who wants to come in, but when you make the case that the U.S. would immediately be flooded with millions of people all at once, completely turning our country into a devastated hellscape, that's realistic? C'mon man, be consistent.

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Corrik7 posted...

No there isn't. And, it would completely destroy the country. You can't fiscally support that many that quickly.

How many exactly do you think would come in?

Also of course theres room! Do you think America is packed from sea to shining sea?
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Like I guess the presumption here is that the only reason we arent being overwhelmed by immigrants as it is is because we make it so difficult? Because we are nowhere close to the apocalypse youre worried about now even with all the illegal immigration
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https://twitter.com/chipmitchell1/status/1347207462097715200?s=21

Full comments from the Chicago police union boss who supports the terrorists
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Jakyl25 posted...

How many exactly do you think would come in?

Also of course theres room! Do you think America is packed from sea to shining sea?

Ain't gonna work and you know that. It's such a preposterous idea that I assume you are doing the thing where you suggest something outlandish just to have a frivolous pointless argument and then just pivot to something equally outlandish over and over. Waste of time.

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UltimaterializerX posted...

Not in the areas willing to take them. Have you seen the state of the California coast recently?

Once theyre legally here there doesnt have to be anywhere willing to take them, they can move wherever theyre able to

Im not saying to give them any benefits Americans dont already get. They want to come here, find their own jobs, find their own housing, pay the fees to get documentation and licenses, pay taxes, thats on them.
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Corrik7 posted...

Ain't gonna work and you know that. It's such a preposterous idea that I assume you are doing the thing where you suggest something outlandish just to have a frivolous pointless argument and then just pivot to something equally outlandish over and over. Waste of time.

Im really not. I just dont understand where this idea that America is near the point of no vacancy comes from.
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Oh God. Biden came out and basically said if this were a BLM protest more people would have been shot of aggressively handled.

Literally making it about race and also lamenting more people weren't killed. I mean, I am all on the board that a lot more of these people should have likely been shot and all of them arrested, but there is zero reason for a President to lament that after the fact nor make it about race. Ridiculous

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Damn that Biden, how dare he tell the truth.

Is he lamenting more werent killed, or is he saying that this shows that police know how to not use lethal force?
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Jakyl25 posted...

Is he lamenting more werent killed, or is he saying that this shows that police know how to not use lethal force?

He is making the comparison in force which basically says either there is racism or more people here should have been shot. Neither is an appropriate response and he had an easy layup of a response. Definitely not a good start to this presidency if he is going to pander to African Americans and cause racial divisions his whole time.

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Corrik7 posted...

Definitely not a good start to this presidency if he is going to pander to African Americans and cause racial divisions his whole time.

How is it causing racial divisions when hes just speaking about racial divisions that already exist and need to be eliminated
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Like, is it pandering to white people when Trump says there is no systemic racism?
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i mean i'm in the camp assuming a lot of those cops either a) know that they are way outmatched here by people as they have zero backup, and b) are okay with it.

i mean if you're 1 cop, you don't shoot an angry mob.
technically there would've been more violence at night but by and large the rioters actually followed curfew and left at 6. end result, riot gear cops didn't need to do much and fewer shots were needed. if everyone followed curfew that'd be an improvement, sure.

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Jakyl25 posted...

How is it causing racial divisions when hes just speaking about racial divisions that already exist and need to be eliminated

Because Corrik is trying to both sides this, and make it seem like Biden telling the truth about the situation is just as bad as Trump lying and trying to cause racial divisions throughout his entire presidency. He's not worth the response.

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Corrik7 posted...

Oh God. Biden came out and basically said if this were a BLM protest more people would have been shot of aggressively handled.

Which is what most people have been saying.


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Hbthebattle posted...

Which is what most people have been saying.

President sowing racial discord in a time of chaos is ridiculous. I am expecting better from it regarding this. Obama sowed so much racial discord during his presidency it is ridiculous. I am expecting a Biden presidency. Not an Obama 2.0 presidency.

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Corrik7 posted...

President sowing racial discord in a time of chaos is ridiculous. I am expecting better from it regarding this. Obama sowed so much racial discord during his presidency it is ridiculous. I am expecting a Biden presidency. Not an Obama 2.0 presidency.

Obama only sowed racial discord in that he was a black man who demonstrated to other black people that "hey wait a minute, we can really become the President of the United States and we're STILL getting treated like shit by the systems and establishments of this country?" Oh, and of course the angry white people who feel threatened by the concept of a minority holding power over them in any way.

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Again, the message here is

https://twitter.com/wichkid/status/1346990204071108610?s=21

The police response to yesterday was bad, but do you think even the one shooting was justified? Do you think it would have been better policing to paint the steps red with their blood? Because it wouldnt be.
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