Current Events > How can people hate on tlou2?

(+) Yeah! (+)

This whole "How can anyone hate X" or "How can anybody not like X" shit needs to stop. People are not a monolith. Just accept(or ignore) dissenters and move on.

Or better yet. Disney's Recess is on Netflix. Go find the episode where TJ is freaking out because someone doesn't like him and see if there's a moral that you can take to heart.

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Gamers and being completely incapable of dealing with gay characters, name a more iconic duo

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UnfairRepresent posted...

Would only be comparable if the plot of TLOU2 was Ellie looking for her girlfriend

But this is what AsucaHayashi seems to be saying... like the whole game is pandering to that specific trait. It's dumb.

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xXfireglzXx posted...

This whole "How can anyone hate X" or "How can anybody not like X" shit needs to stop. People are not a monolith. Just accept(or ignore) dissenters and move on.

Or better yet. Disney's Recess is on Netflix. Go find the episode where TJ is freaking out because someone doesn't like him and see if there's a moral that you can take to heart.

I dunno.

I think there is value In talking to people who disagree with you and learning other perspectives or things you didnt notice yourself

"Just ignore everyone and run away" sounds like a ticket to a dull life and doing a huge favor for cult-religious Indoctrination to me

I'm sure a lot of MAGA guys followed that advice

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@UnfairRepresent

I like conversing with you on this subject despite us not agreeing. See everyone, it's not that hard to take things away from others even if they don't believe what you believe.

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AsucaHayashi posted...

showcasing ellie's relationship serves absolute nothing for the motivation or the overall plot of the game

it does, to an extent.

in the trailer, it was juxtaposing calm and violent parts of Ellie's journey.

and in the game, the event caused the minor conflict with Seth, which Joel intervened in, and even though it pissed Ellie off, it also had the two talking again, which fueled Ellie's rage/guilt when she hunted Abby down because it took away any chance of reconciliation with Joel she might have had.

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Yazarogi posted...

But this is what AsucaHayashi seems to be saying... like the whole game is pandering to that specific trait. It's dumb.

He's arguing that the gay and trans characters are there to score brownie points for progressives and have no real bearing on the plot or themes of the game

And that the marketing focusing on them demonstrates that

He's probably not wrong TBH but that's not what makes the game bland

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UnfairRepresent posted...

He's arguing that the gay and trans characters are there to score brownie points for progressives and have no real bearing on the plot or themes of the game

And that the marketing focusing on them demonstrates that

He's probably not wrong TBH but that's not what makes the game bland

I'd say he's wrong because of goldie's comment.

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UnfairRepresent posted...

I dunno.

I think there is value In talking to people who disagree with you and learning other perspectives or things you didnt notice yourself

"Just ignore everyone and run away" sounds like a ticket to a dull life and doing a huge favor for cult-religious Indoctrination to me

I'm sure a lot of MAGA guys followed that advice

That's not what I'm suggesting. What asking is why people take it personally if there is a single dissenting opinion among the majority. I'm not saying that you should run from the opposing opinions, but why is it so difficult to accept that a story is more or less nuanced depending on the background of the individual playing it? Some themes aren't going to be as personal for people as they were for you or I. I accept that. My favorite game has a super small dedicated fanbase and a shoddy translation. The average review score is something like a 5.7. It doesn't keep me up at night; because the themes and morals of the story resonate personally with me and the music and setting captivates me.

I certainly don't think less of people who don't enjoy it and I don't think that dissenting makes them some kind of subhuman being.

I don't know, it just feels nutso to take something as reasonable as a dissenting opinion regarding something as divisive as TLOU2 and use it as some sort of condemnation of their character.

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xXfireglzXx posted...

, but why is it so difficult to accept that a story is more or less nuanced depending on the background of the individual playing it?

I wouldn't deny that but I would say it's a weak defense of a product

I'm reminded of someone who argued Silent Hill 4 is the best game in the series if you live in a tiny apartment that you hate.

That may be true for that person but I still think that's not a defense of SH4's giant flaws

Battlefield Earth isn't a good movie if you relate to it.

xXfireglzXx posted...

it just feels nutso to take something as reasonable as a dissenting opinion regarding something as divisive as TLOU2 and use it as some sort of condemnation of their character.

I agree with this 100%

People who take disagreements on media as personal attacks are weird

in the top 10 topic GGOA running in and screaming that everyone is stupid just was so bizarre and silly

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Yazarogi posted...

I'd say he's wrong because of goldie's comment.

pretty sure you weren't aware of that aspect since you yourself admitted ellie's relationship or sexual preference had little to do with the actual plot.

in fact that's not even close to being any of the big problems i have with the game since you responded to me responding to the picture where i focused almost entirely on the dog aspect of it and how obnoxious and manipulative ND is with their writing and design.

it's weird how any issues people bring up with the game automatically regresses back to:

ModLogic posted...

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AsucaHayashi posted...

pretty sure you weren't aware of that aspect since you yourself admitted ellie's relationship or sexual preference had little to do with the actual plot.

in fact that's not even close to being any of the big problems i have with the game since you responded to me responding to the picture where i focused almost entirely on the dog aspect of it and how obnoxious and manipulative ND is with their writing and design.

it's weird how any issues people bring up with the game automatically regresses back to:

It's not an issue though. Or it is, but you can't actually say why it is.

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AsucaHayashi posted...

it has a far bigger share of LGBT characters yet isn't criticized for it in the slightest.

You dont remember when people got mad at a billboard?

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ViewtifulGrave posted...

You dont remember when people got mad at a billboard?

it was probably a bit hyperbolic since i distinctly remember CDPR being criticized for handling of trans characters in the game quite a while ago.

the point is that you don't see endless pages of forum debates over it or any of its other themes dealing with minorities and it's almost as if the mere presence of them isn't even a problem.

but again "reee"

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You sound like one crying about supposed pandering in a game with a character whose just gay and can't deal with that.

Oh ya, and the point about the dog... nobody gives a fuck except the critics who try to say its manipulative writing. It's just giving you both sides of the story, if you think that's manipulative maybe you're actually just feeling... idk... emotions and shit. That's not a bad thing.

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Yazarogi posted...

You sound like one crying about supposed pandering in a game with a character whose just gay and can't deal with that.

yet you don't see me crying about cyberpunk.

oh right, you have to convince yourself that it's because i worship CDPR or otherwise your own world-view doesn't make sense.

basically "reeee"

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AsucaHayashi posted...

the point is that you don't see endless pages of forum debates over it or any of its other themes dealing with minorities and it's almost as if the mere presence of them isn't even a problem.

Your first post makes seem like you have a problem with minorities.

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I kinda agree with him on the trans thing.

The social commentary there was awful.

Yazarogi posted...

I think art is subjective and this game wasn't your cup of tea. The gameplay isn't basic, you'd be hard pressed to find a game that has combat as good as this one. The sheer number of ways you can kill, use the environment to your advantage, etc. is amazing. The stealth is and prone mechanics is awesome. Nook and crannies you can crawl through to ambush enemies or if you want to go rambo (barring specific segments) you can.

You're kidding right? Putting aside the original game. Look at Horizon Zero Dawn, Every Far Cry Game, Deus Ex HR/MD, MGS5, Mafia 3, Ass Creed, Dishonored.

The whole "Stealth, craft, shoot, preanimated backstab" gameplay thing is old hat. It's generic as hell. And this brought NOTHING new to the table. Everying you just listed is in dozen of other games, some over a decade old. Meanwhile the problems are the same. The AI is braindead and easy as fuck to break, there's no clever innovations or things to shake it up.

I agree that it's fine. It's "that generic combat you've seen a thousand times" done well. But it's still generic and dull and if you're even slightly good at video games, ridiclously easy because you've done it before.

There are flash backs which aren't filled with depressing, hateful, revenge messages. and poignant moments between characters before shit pops off.

Yeah? And?

They're all bland as hell, just there to move into the next trope and absolutely kill replay value.

It covers pretty much every spectrum of emotion at least once during the game,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VtGaMrkhYM

while it does focus on revenge. If you say a game like TLoU2 is bland simply because of the theme there is a whole genre of work with amazing works like The Count of Monte Cristo that you'd have to hate as well.

This is such a dumb argument on more than one front.

1. No one said the game was bland "simply because of the theme of revenge"
2. And something with a theme of revenge could be good or bad depending on quality.

The Count of Monte Cristo is a classic because it's a wonderful story with deep characters. As I challenged earlier there isn't a single pair of character in TLOU2 you can imagine having a conversation about anything other than the plot of the game, that's all they exist for.

The characters are sufficiently fleshed out,

Couldn't disagree further

Also comparing it to UP is laughable, as the first game never presented itself as a happy go lucky cheery thing and neither did the sequel.

I never said they did? What kind of counter is that? I said maturity has nothing to do with morbid actions. UP was used as example of something way more mature than TLOU2 despite having nothing that bad in it.... Except they kinda murder Muntz I guess. Which is the weakest part of the film.

God damn, how can you say that's bland and unoriginal?

For all the reasons I've stated through out the topic?
Christ GOD3 did that better with an actual character arc and that game was a goof

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ViewtifulGrave posted...

Your first post makes seem like you have a problem with minorities.

nope.

TC claimed it made sense for the game to have really scarce resources in an apocalyptic world. i made the same claim that in that same apocalyptic world, apparently there isn't a scarcity in minorities.

it makes sense to have all of them in cyberpunk because it's a living, bustling city with tons of unique districts... in an apocalyptic world with survivors few and far between? not so much and because of this it reeks of tokenism more than anything else.

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Having played all those games you listed, not one of them had combat as fleshed out as TLoU2.

Hell, original AC had better combat then modern AC but it still wasn't as complex as TLoU2.

I really want to know, who played this game and whose just shitting on it based on watching youtube videos.

Also, a certain user in this thread is definitely being a hypocritical jack ass and homophobic as fuck as well as racist. Saying that based off their own statements so it's not just a "YOUR RACIST" response just because, its their OWN words that have solidified that argument for me.

Also "no u" isn't an argument.

Mentioning all those games as if they do anything better then TLoU doesn't make it so, coming from a person who played a majority of those games to completion I simply disagree with the statement.

its pretty pointless to continue the conversation because you'll continue to lie and provide weak examples that don't actually prove your point. It's pointless to continue this conversation because certain homophobic racists have decided what they wanted to feel about the game. Have a good day.

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Yazarogi posted...

you'll continue to lie and provide weak examples that don't actually prove your point.

Lol.

@Eab1990



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Yazarogi posted...

Having played all those games you listed, not one of them had combat as fleshed out as TLoU2.

I'm going to challenge you from now on that any time you say something about TLOU2 is "Fleshed Out" you actually have to explain how and in what way it is.

You keep just saying stuff but not really making a point.

I really want to know, who played this game and whose just shitting on it based on watching youtube videos.

I played it and the only youtube videos I saw where the ones of that guy going ham as Ellie killing everyone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meseu276SSs

The game is bland.

Also, a certain user in this thread is definitely being a hypocritical jack ass and homophobic as fuck as well as racist. Saying that based off their own statements so it's not just a "YOUR RACIST" response just because, its their OWN words that have solidified that argument for me.

Also "no u" isn't an argument.

Hope that's not directed at me

Mentioning all those games as if they do anything better then TLoU doesn't make it so, coming from a person who played a majority of those games to completion I simply disagree with the statement.

I think you're kinda missing my point.

They do the exact same thing. Whether or not it's better is neither here nor there if it's been done to death. The Orphans in Oliver didn't argue over who got the best gruel.

That being said, Deus Ex was way better. So much more open ended and actually had innovations based on your augments and loadout.

It managed to give you the literal ability to turn invisible and silence your footsteps without making it OP.

Far Cry 3 introuced the Animals as hazards and had the whole Alarm system, operating more EXP (and challenge) for a silenced outpost takeover vs taking out the alarms vs guns blazing. Last of Us 2 had nothing like that, it brought nothing to the table. There wasn't a single new game mechanic or gameplay innovation. Ellie controls exactly the same as a 240 pound 6 foot 5 expert survivalist with military training and raw power.

Because that's how every other game operates.

its pretty pointless to continue the conversation because you'll continue to lie and provide weak examples that don't actually prove your point. It's pointless to continue this conversation because certain homophobic racists have decided what they wanted to feel about the game. Have a good day.

What did I lie about?

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The game isn't bland. See what I did there?

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Yeah you evaded all points and questions directed at you in an extremely childish way.

Everything I've said has been detailed with direct examples and explanations for why. All you can do when asked direct questions about the weak writing and generic game play/characters is say "no" and run off.

Just like a second ago you argued the combat gameplay was fleshed out and unique. Yet you cannot explain a single detail about it that was unique or different. While at the same time you dismiss the other games that have the exact same combat except they at least tried a new mechanic or two and kept the gameplay consistent to the player character.

Ellie being a little girl is not reflected in the gameplay because it's copy-pasted from other games with nothing new. The AI is braindead because it's copy-pasted from other games with nothing new. The Enviroments often make little sense because they are copy-pasted from other games with nothing new.

It's just bleh.

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No you didn't provide any examples that proved any point you were trying to make that couldn't be considered an opinion, and the game isn't bland. The game has great characterization and explores themes in a mature and amazing way.

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I dont like it because I dont care about a single characters story in the game. Seems like a complete waste of time.

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AsucaHayashi posted...

you do realize your own example works against you, right?

that shows his motivation which makes sense to include.

showcasing ellie's relationship serves absolute nothing for the motivation or the overall plot of the game which you yourself admitted:

To be fair, I think most people thought that Dina was going to be killed and it would be Joel and Ellie looking for revenge, or at least Ellie going for it and Joel following her to help despite her reluctance to have him in her life.

So I get the feeling the trailer was just another cog in that wheel of deception. Same way how they shift out from her kiss to stabbing someone's throat, to show the disparity between safe and home, and cold and violent. I don't think it was particularly thrown in for a SJW agenda.

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ThunderTrain posted...

I dont like it because I dont care about a single characters story in the game. Seems like a complete waste of time.

Alright and that's a completely reasonable explanation as to why you didn't like the game.

But then you said "seems" so you did or didn't play it? How would you be able to make your assumption based off something you really don't know about unless you sat and watched every minute of the game from a streamer or something, in which case you might as well have played it or on the flipside, not commented about it at all.

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This conversation with Yazarogi encapsulates everything frustrating about the fans of this game.

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Yazarogi posted...

No you didn't provide any examples that proved any point you were trying to make that couldn't be considered an opinion

Wut? Yes I did.

The game mechanics example is objective. Not an opinion.

The Augmentations in Deus Ex, the wilfelife that you can manipulate/Alarm system in Far Cry 3. Inserted to spice up the generic gameplay. TLOU2 didn't have any new gimmick to bring to the table

That's not an opinion.

Yazarogi posted...

and the game isn't bland. The game has great characterization and explores themes in a mature and amazing way.

And yet niether yourself nor anyone who holds this opinion can elaborate on it whatsoever and all run away from and evade even the most basic and simple questions about the plot or characters or comparisons to other, far far far far superior media.

I challenged you earlier to not say things are fleshed out unless you can explain what you mean when you say that. And you can't do it.

I don't think there is anything to be embarrased about by liking bland dull media, But I do think it's embarrasing to pretend that you don't and take it personally when questioned.

It's like when Harry Potter fans claim it's not a childrens book.

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I should point out for the record that I didn't see any of the marketing for the game and really don't care much about it.

I never really look at any marketing for video games or films. They often spoil shit and even when they don't they (For me) don't really excite me as much as just remind me the thing exists.

I care about the final product.

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The game is a masterpiece. You don't think so, but don't try to tell me how I feel about it. That's pretty fucked up for you to do.

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Yazarogi posted...

The game is a masterpiece. You don't think so, but don't try to tell me how I feel about it. That's pretty fucked up for you to do.

No one did that

Dabrikishaw15 posted...

This conversation with Yazarogi encapsulates everything frustrating about the fans of this game.

Yup.

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Yazarogi posted...

The game is a masterpiece. You don't think so, but don't try to tell me how I feel about it. That's pretty fucked up for you to do.

I've played it through to completion on hard and I disagree completely.

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I mean, if you had valid criticism instead of something that boils down to an opinion with something that could apply to any of the games you've already mentioned it wouldn't be a problem.

Instead you're just lying about the game and talking about it as if it's a fact the game is bland, or that it's not mature, or that the characterization isn't good.

You can think that but it wouldn't hold true for me. I can think it's a masterpiece and it doesn't hold true for you. I haven't tried to say you HAVE to like the game, I just want the criticism to be valid. You haven't said one thing that points to that so that's why we're still here going around in stupid ass circles.

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Kaldrenthebold posted...

I've played it through to completion on hard and I disagree completely.

I don't remember talking to you. Good on you for beating the game and thinking it's not good.

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Yazarogi posted...

I don't remember talking to you. Good on you for beating the game and thinking it's not good.

I remember you blathering on and on in this topic for 4 pages because you can't seem to understand any and all criticism of the game you hold so highly, but maybe I should just ignore you. Hey, we're both learning!

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Kaldrenthebold posted...

I remember you blathering on and on in this topic for 4 pages because you can't seem to understand any and all criticism of the game you hold so highly, but maybe I should just ignore you. Hey, we're both learning!

Okay? I don't think anybody here gives a fuck.

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Yazarogi posted...

I mean, if you had valid criticism

What makes a criticism valid? Especially considering you're ignoring all of them.

instead of something that boils down to an opinion with something that could apply to any of the games you've already mentioned it wouldn't be a problem.

You sure could. And if we were talking about those games that might be a relevant point.

But the point here was that were discussing that the combat gameplay is generic as hell. You denied it but couldn't explain how it was different. Now you're arguing "Well if it's generic here it's generic in those games too." And it is.

Some of those games get away with it due to new Mechanics like Deus Ex
Others get away with it due to being so old that it was fresher at the time, like Far Cry.
Others get away with it because the game isn't a slog and doesn't take itself seriously.

And others don't get away with it at all and are equally as dull and generic in terms of combat. What's your point?

Instead you're just lying about the game

What did I say that was a lie?

you keep saying this and not backing it up.

and talking about it as if it's a fact the game is bland, or that it's not mature, or that the characterization isn't good.

I never denied that it was an opinion but I've given a lot of details and examples to back that up. Meanwhile your camp cannot do the same.

Which says it all to me.

Battlefield Earth being a bad movie isn't a "fact" either but we're capable of understanding reality.

You can think that but it wouldn't hold true for me. I can think it's a masterpiece and it doesn't hold true for you. I haven't tried to say you HAVE to like the game,

No one said you're not allowed to like the game dude. In fact my very first post in the topic was saying it's good if you did.

I just want the criticism to be valid. You haven't said one thing that points to that so that's why we're still here going around in stupid ass circles.

What does this even mean? I've pointed out tons of examples of boring game design, lazy enviroments, bland uninteresting characters, lazy tropes for the sake of tropes, padding, poorly explored themes, nonsensical decisions, pacing issues, no new ideas/game mechanics and given examples for all of them

You've ignored every single one, ignored every question and just gone "It's not valid." without explanation.

In fact the only one who has lied is you when you said the gameplay is unique and then 5 seconds later couldn't back up and swiveled to "Well if it's generic here, it's generic in other games too!"

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You saying the gameplay is bland and generic doesn't make it true.

https://youtu.be/FjrquSJhS80

The other games you mentioned have elements of this, but non of them IN MY OPINION, are presented as fantastically or as smooth as this.

Can you jump onto a person and kill them in AC, yes, you can. Can you stealth up to someone and kill them in Human Revolution, yes you can. Can you prone in Splinter Cell (and can free prone in games like Sniper Elite Ghost Recon) and crawl through nook and crannies, yes you can.

Do any of those games combine all of those elements in a way that's portrayed in the video I just posted? I don't think so.

That's not even showcasing stuff like the bombs both thrown and as ambushes, or using the infected as weapons either.

I've played the games you've mentioned, and I'm sure you have too OBVIOUSLY we aren't going to see eye to on the matter.

Also the A.I. is fucking amazing as showcased in that video as well.

Say what you want about the story, that's going to change from person to person... but don't try and act like the gameplay doesn't bring anything new to the table because I can't find a game that does it better then that at the moment.

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That's not even showcasing stuff like the bombs both thrown and as ambushes, or using the infected as weapons either.

I really enjoyed the segments that features both enemy types

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lww99 posted...

That's not even showcasing stuff like the bombs both thrown and as ambushes, or using the infected as weapons either.

I really enjoyed the segments that features both enemy types

Same, you can tell they started doing that in the Last of Us DLC, and expanded upon it a bit (though still rare) in the second game. Good shit.

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Hey remember how in Bioshock Infinite your powers could be either thrown projectiles or set as traps? I can't recall, when did that game come out?

You are mixing up "innovative" with "new for the sequel". The game plays like TLOU1+. Nothing it does is unique in any way, shape, or form. It is not "innovative", it just took things from other games that have been done many, many times before and put them in itself. It is expanded from the first game, and is fun and done well, but it is not innovative. Nothing at all that you've said is innovative.

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Kaldrenthebold posted...

Hey remember how in Bioshock Infinite your powers could be either thrown projectiles or set as traps? I can't recall, when did that game come out?

You are mixing up "innovative" with "new for the sequel". The game plays like TLOU1+. Nothing it does is unique in any way, shape, or form. It is not "innovative", it just took things from other games that have been done many, many times before and put them in itself. It is expanded from the first game, and is fun and done well, but it is not innovative. Nothing at all that you've said is innovative.

i dont believe I said that, I said I havent come across a game that implements them as well as TLOU2 has. Find me a game where in real time combat the character gets thrown over tables and the environment as you saw in the video I posted.

Ill wait, those are completely unscripted events and thats the innovation of the aspects that Im talking about.

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Yazarogi posted...

i dont believe I said that, I said I havent come across a game that implements them as well as TLOU2 has. Find me a game where in real time combat the character gets thrown over tables and the environment as you saw in the video I posted.

Ill wait, those are completely unscripted events and thats the innovation of the aspects that Im talking about.

You mean the bullshot video from the fucking E3 demo? I expected it to be actual gameplay, not fake stuff that didn't appear in the actual game in the end. I remember that section, it is not NEARLY as "innovative" as you claim. The video has clear bullshit added, similar to how even the first TLOU had bullshit added to it's gameplay demo.

Now I feel like YOU haven't played the damn game and are just going off of YouTube, dude. Here's that scene you claim is "so innovative, wow" played by an actual human and not bullshot for E3:

https://youtu.be/JXAM-Lbd15c?t=1130

The "get thrown over counters, such wow!" animation is a cutscene (not real time gameplay), and the guy is taken out with a single shot. Not obviously drawn out and fake gameplay. So again. What about the game IN REALITY is innovative? And not something that has already been in Uncharted 4 or Lost Legacy (super cool animations and reactions!), mind you.

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There hasn't been an innovative AAA game in almost a decade now. Pretty much all of them build and refine on what's popular or combine take things from other games and combine them in a new way.

It's not even really a criticism. TLOU2 did not market itself as a new innovation. It marketed itself as an intense cinematic shooter. Which it is.

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Darmik posted...

There hasn't been an innovative AAA game in almost a decade now. Pretty much all of them build and refine on what's popular or combine take things from other games and combine them in a new way.

It's not even really a criticism. TLOU2 did not market itself as a new innovation. It marketed itself as an intense cinematic shooter. Which it is.

Exactly. The game plays well and brings together stuff from many other games. It is not innovative, but well put together. I personally find it very fun. But I have zero notion that it is innovative or unique in any way. It is just really well made. Some people seem to conflate that with innovative.

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Kaldrenthebold posted...

You mean the bullshot video from the fucking E3 demo? I expected it to be actual gameplay, not fake stuff that didn't appear in the actual game in the end. I remember that section, it is not NEARLY as "innovative" as you claim. The video has clear bullshit added, similar to how even the first TLOU had bullshit added to it's gameplay demo.

Now I feel like YOU haven't played the damn game and are just going off of YouTube, dude. Here's that scene you claim is "so innovative, wow" played by an actual human and not bullshot for E3:

https://youtu.be/JXAM-Lbd15c?t=1130

The "get thrown over counters, such wow!" animation is a cutscene (not real time gameplay), and the guy is taken out with a single shot. Not obviously drawn out and fake gameplay. So again. What about the game IN REALITY is innovative? And not something that has already been in Uncharted 4 or Lost Legacy (super cool animations and reactions!), mind you.

youre not even referencing the moment in the video Im talking about, which isnt E3 footage.

go to the 1 minute mark, thats active game play.

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Darmik posted...

There hasn't been an innovative AAA game in almost a decade now. Pretty much all of them build and refine on what's popular or combine take things from other games and combine them in a new way.

It's not even really a criticism. TLOU2 did not market itself as a new innovation. It marketed itself as an intense cinematic shooter. Which it is.

This is such a lame defense

"IT doesn't matter that it's dull bland and generic because it didn't market itself on not being dull bland and generic."

Not only do I disagree, this entire rabbit hole stemmed from a guy claiming it's combat was unique and innovative, so you're just disagreeing with that.

I also think "Well other games didn't bother isn't" isn't a rebuttal of a game being dull, bland and generic.

It's just same old shit with 0 new ideas.

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