Current Events > Caitlyn Jenner Backs Bans on Trans Girls Competing in Female Sports

(+) Yeah! (+)

Musourenka posted...

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/mar/16/facebook-posts/social-media-posts-mislead-about-transgender-mma-f/

What about them?

What? The link you posted says that the transgender broke a girl's eye socket. I'm not a delusional facebooky, I actually watched the fight. It was disgusting.

shockthemonkey posted...

Do you think the womens sports in the Olympics and NCAA are being taken over by trans women?

Dude, am I a troll or not? Make up your mind. If I am, stop feeding the troll and taking my supposed bait. If not, then...don't call me a troll, maybe? It's kinda annoying.

FlameTurtle posted...

I know that the science is on their side, and I know that they know infinitely more about this than you.

Its very funny that you say stuff like this when we can all see you ignoring the posts that blow your shitty takes out of the water

Give me the science then? I'm still reading through the one article that someone posted(which is reading less like proof and more like a biopic) and yet there hasn't been a single article proving the science you say is on their side.

And yes. I am ignoring posts, because I don't want to spend all day repeating myself. But let's be honest here, you don't actually care what I have to say, you just want to argue like shock and gunpla. So just...yeah, let's end this right here.
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Number11_1 posted...

What? The link you posted says that the transgender broke a girl's eye socket. I'm not a delusional facebooky, I actually watched the fight. It was disgusting.

The link says the photo was from a fight years later. Should we ban any MMA fighter who hurts their opponent? What about if they go undefeated for too long?

Also "the transgender". Clearly you view them as equal human beings.

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Slayer_22 posted...

you don't actually care what I have to say,

Youre right, I dont give a shit about your dogshit takes like politicians debating your place in society isnt political because it doesnt affect me

Im glad you picked up on that.

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I agree with Caitlyn
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FlameTurtle posted...

Youre right, I dont give a shit about your dogshit takes like politicians debating your place in society isnt political because it doesnt affect me

Im glad you picked up on that.

Cut out the part asking for research or an article proving the science on your side, and people talk about arguing in bad faith lol.
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shockthemonkey posted...

Ok so you still dont actually have anything to counter and support your argument other than comedians and lies, just checking

Nope, do you?
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Number11_1 posted...

What? The link you posted says that the transgender broke a girl's eye socket. I'm not a delusional facebooky, I actually watched the fight. It was disgusting.

MMA skull injuries happen. Explain why this one specifically matters.

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What was that thing I saw @COVxy post the other day? Something like "People that can't understand the data shouldn't try to interpret it"?

"But the science says X! You can't argue with facts!" No, but you can argue with people treating the facts like a buffet and forming conclusions that don't follow.

There hasn't been anything that has proven trans women can't safely compete with cis women. Anyone who says different likely believes that the old Sweden study claims that transitioning is horrible and makes people more likely to kill themselves, despite the study concluding exactly the opposite.

There's no point in championing the science if you disregard it.

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shockthemonkey posted...

Yes, the fact that the NCAA and Olympics allow trans women to compete as women and we havent seen anything that the fearmongerers keep warning us about with legislation like this.

Fucking obviously.

Alright, so your evidence is based on the fact that 2 organizations allow it. Okay, now I just need a few placements, scores compared to other players, etc.

I'm not gonna do research for the science that is on your side. You won't convince someone by pointing and yelling 'HEY, LOOK, OVER THERE!'.

You want me to believe your side? I'm open to it. Provide me with some statistics, and you can actually change my mind.
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shockthemonkey posted...

The transgender broke a girls eye socket yeah this one is definitely gonna have an honest conversation

I'm here and I'm having a conversation. I'm doing my best to be honest are you?

hockeybub89 posted...

The link says the photo was from a fight years later. Should we ban any MMA fighter who hurts their opponent? What about if they go undefeated for too long?

Also "the transgender". Clearly you view them as equal human beings.

Of course I view them as equal human beings. Equal human beings that have applicable labels that make conversations easy. I didn't remember their names. One is a transgender and one is a biological woman. That's a perfectly reasonable label. Actually, without remembering their names, it's the only possible label I could have used in the context of the conversation.

Musourenka posted...

MMA skull injuries happen. Explain why this one specifically matters.

Because in an evenly matched its pretty damn rare. In most cases that it happens it was someone's mistake matching the two together or the fighter taking a fight on bad advice. In this case the mistake was letting a woman fight a beginning transgender fight a beginning woman. The fight perfectly describes the exact thing you guys are saying doesn't happen.

By the way, if it helps, the transgender did lose to a biological woman.

I find it very telling that the only string to the bow of people calling for biological male transgenders competing in biological female sports, is just to insult others.

That's what you do when you know you don't have an argument.

It's not fair, it's not nice, if I was God I wouldn't have made the world this way, but biological males are larger, stronger, faster, have more muscle mass/bone density, different hormones and half the pain receptors of biological women.

That's literally the reason we segregate sports by sex in the first place. Women cannot compete in the "mens leagues." They're allowed too. There's no rule that says women can't compete in the NBA, NFL, MLB etc. Some have even had tryouts. but the physical reality of biology and science is that the best female Football player in the history of the world is still a less skilled player than the worst pro NFL player. Because of the natural biological advantages the male body has to make it stronger, faster etc, all the shit I just said.

Look at Mary Gregory who went from a barely above average Male Weightlifter to among the absolute top of female weightlifters

Look at Hannah Mouncey:

https://youtu.be/2SJYdXj7Kac

Your gender can whatever you want. I don't think it's important. In law and employment and rights etc, everything should be equal. I 100% agree on that and I think people who are douches to transgenders are despicable.

But your physical biology? You can't just ignore it because it's inconvient.

Notice that the people claiming this undeniable fact is bigotry go silent when you point out that no one has any issues with a FtM transgender kicking ass in the "mens leagues"

In fact could you imagine if a FtM transgender became a star Quartbacker for the SeaHawks? He would quickly become probably the most popular NFL athlete in the sport. People would love him and his story.

It's not bigotry, it's not hatred, it's not unreasonable. It's just basic indisputable science.

IF you put people who are have biologically male bodies against those who have biologically female bodies in sporting competitions, the male bodies have a gigantic advantage. That's just science.... No matter what your thoughts are how much that fact sucks, It's still a fact.

It's bonkers that this is considered a partisan political issue....

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Number11_1 posted...

Of course I view them as equal human beings. Equal human beings that have applicable labels that make conversations easy. I didn't remember their names. One is a transgender and one is a biological woman. That's a perfectly reasonable label. Actually, without remembering their names, it's the only possible label I could have used in the context of the conversation.

But they are both biological women. Trans women are not men. Trans men are not women. They never were.

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hockeybub89 posted...

But they are both biological women

Can we not conflate identity with obvious cellular differences

like you get what is being said, even if it's some troll alt

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hockeybub89 posted...

But they are both biological women. Trans women are not men. Trans men are not women. They never were.

But they are biological men. I understand that doesn't make them men now. But that does make them transgender. Which is why I called one transgender and one biological woman. If I was trying to be rude I would have used the words "he" and "man."

hockeybub89 posted...

But they are both biological women. Trans women are not men. Trans men are not women. They never were.

Their gender is female.

Their biological physical body is male...

If it wasn't they wouldn't be transgender....

You're conflating social views, gender, soul etc with physical reality.

Gender is a social construct. You could make up a new one and declare yourself a Quaygar and it would be as valid as anything else.

Your physical body is biological observable science. The chemicals in your brain, your height/weight, muscle mass, pain receptors etc.

These are all tangible things.

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This topic is a great example of why people shouldn't be able to get away with the "it's a joke" defense when their jokes support bigotry. Multiple people have posted a Dave Chappelle joke and a screenshot from Southpark as a reason why trans women should be barred from activities or segregated. They're citing comedy as a reason to deny people rights.

Only one person posting in favor of the "science" in this topic has actually posted anything to support their opinion and they also posted something that went against it.

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Firstly, the two in the MMA match are both women. You should use the terms transwomen (women who were not assigned female at birth) and ciswomen (women who were assigned female at birth).

The issue is that we're not saying transwomen won't necessarily have an advantage over ciswomen. What we are saying is that:

• Transwomen are women, so they should be able to compete with other women.
• The advantage transwomen may have is overstated and not born out in signficant results.
• The Olympics already have rules in place regarding transwomen to try to make competitions fair to all women.
• Any sort of blanket ban on transwomen competing with ciswomen is misguided at best and transphobic at worst. Considering these anti-transwomen sports laws are being bundled with other laws to prevent minors from transitioning or affirming, it's overwhelming transphobic.

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gunplagirl posted...

How dare you fucking presume that someone rightfully being angry is the one who needs to back down.

Leave. Fucking get out of here. Not this topic or site. Society. Go fucking live in a god damned cave in the woods in some mountain and never ever bother anyone again. No electronics, nothing. You have nothing of value to contribute, you are a net loss upon the human race by participating in society. As such, only your removal is suitable to remedy the problem your very existence presents.

hot holy damn destroyed

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Number11_1 posted...

I'm here and I'm having a conversation. I'm doing my best to be honest are you?

Of course I view them as equal human beings. Equal human beings that have applicable labels that make conversations easy. I didn't remember their names. One is a transgender and one is a biological woman. That's a perfectly reasonable label. Actually, without remembering their names, it's the only possible label I could have used in the context of the conversation.

Because in an evenly matched its pretty damn rare. In most cases that it happens it was someone's mistake matching the two together or the fighter taking a fight on bad advice. In this case the mistake was letting a woman fight a beginning transgender fight a beginning woman. The fight perfectly describes the exact thing you guys are saying doesn't happen.

By the way, if it helps, the transgender did lose to a biological woman.

The example you're using is a trans women that got knocked out by a "biological woman" and never won anything of note in her career. You are ascribing the issue to Fox being a trans woman but you don't seem to have any evidence for that conclusion specifically. It's really telling that people only seem to have a few key stories, Fallon Fox, that video that Unfair posted, and jokes from comedians. Not evidence from actual sports results in the real world or actual studies.

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Musourenka posted...

You should use the terms transwomen (women who were not assigned female at birth) and ciswomen (women who were assigned female at birth).

so close. trans women / cis women. the space is important. cis and trans are adjectives in this context, not prefixes. using transwomen is like using whitewomen or tallwomen.

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shockthemonkey posted...

Yeah we should definitely base laws on what comedians say instead of what medical professionals and scientists say.

how about we base laws on what you are born with which is backed by medical professionals and scientists

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Medussa posted...

so close. trans women / cis women. the space is important. cis and trans are adjectives in this context, not prefixes. using transwomen is like using whitewomen or tallwomen.

Gotcha. I've assumed they were prefixes rather than separate words (sometimes I've been hyphenating). I'll change that going forward.

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Nukazie posted...

how about we base laws on what you are born with which is backed by medical professionals and scientists

so this is another question for the staff - why are we okay with outright disinformation (read: lies) like this? because the stacks of research on this overwhelmingly support the conclusion that trans women aren't dominating any of the sports theyre playing. so to say the science supports "biological males would make womens sports unfair" is literal disinformation. it's lying, maliciously, to encourage further discrimination of a highly marginalized group

we're okay with that?

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Transphobes ideal for society:

Deny youth access to trans girls healthcare so they can go through male puberty. That way as adults, they will have all the testosterone they can amass and never go into female sports because their testosterone is too high.

??????????????

So give trans youth access to trans healthcare, and trans women won't have to be dealing with testosterone from the get go.

Also, for the trans denier doctors in the house, here's my last testosterone check:

Test / Current Result / Expected Result for Women
Testosterone / 16 ng/dL / 2 - 45 ng/dL
Free Testosterone / 0.8 pg/mL / 0.2 - 5.0 pg/mL
Testosterone, Bioavailable / 1.8 ng/dL / 0.5 - 8.5 ng/dL
Sex Hormone Binding Globulin / 85 nmol/L / 17 - 124 nmol/L
Albumin, Serum / 4.8 g/dL / 3.6 - 5.1 g/dL

My testosterone is no where near a man's level anymore. To think someone like me would have any advantage is kind of insane. My current testosterone levels are almost too low, even for biological women.

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UnfairRepresent posted...

Their gender is female.

Their biological physical body is male...

If it wasn't they wouldn't be transgender....

You're conflating social views, gender, soul etc with physical reality.

Gender is a social construct. You could make up a new one and declare yourself a Quaygar and it would be as valid as anything else.

Your physical body is biological observable science. The chemicals in your brain, your height/weight, muscle mass, pain receptors etc.

These are all tangible things.

So transgenderism is a social construct? I don't think science backs that.

Nukazie posted...

how about we base laws on what you are born with which is backed by medical professionals and scientists

How does being born with a penis prove laws must make it illegal for trans women to comingle with cis women?

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Sayoria posted...

Transphobes ideal for society:

Deny youth access to trans girls healthcare so they can go through male puberty. That way as adults, they will have all the testosterone they can amass and never go into female sports because their testosterone is too high.

??????????????

So give trans youth access to trans healthcare, and trans women won't have to be dealing with testosterone from the get go.

No but see, a cis person might get hurt and by hurt I mean hurt by the completely reversible puberty blockers. And we know that transphobes will throw every single trans person away to make cis people feel better. It's why they backed the bathroom laws. Because if trans people got killed that's okay. But if a transphobic cis person felt disgusted that a trans person might possibly have used the same bathroom as them, that's just too much to allow.

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legendary_zell posted...

The example you're using is a trans women that got knocked out by a "biological woman" and never won anything of note in her career. You are ascribing the issue to Fox being a trans woman but you don't seem to have any evidence for that conclusion specifically. It's really telling that people only seem to have a few key stories, Fallon Fox, that video that Unfair posted, and jokes from comedians. Not evidence from actual sports results in the real world or actual studies.

This is a bullshit argument.

You can't simutaniously argue that "there just isn't enough evidence due to the sheer small amount of transgenders" and at the same time argue that "All the examples of transgenders having massive advantages in the womens leagues don't count because there's so few cases!"

Hell that fact alone is incredibly damning for the physical reality of the biological human body.

Why do you think they segregated womens leagues in the first place?

The argument you're proposing is not only untrue, but to use it the argument would still be to keep transgender bans for female leagues in place until you provide "Adequate data" to prove there is no advantage. Not just keep ignoring blatant advantages and going "that doesn't count" over and over.

Serena Williams is a physical marvel.
She would be spanked by any top 300 male player with complete and utter ease.

You can't just ignore this because it sucks and you wish it wasn't true. That's religion. Don't fall for religion.

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UnfairRepresent posted...

Serena Williams is a physical marvel.
She would be spanked by any top 300 male player with complete and utter ease.

The guy who beat both the sisters was Karsten Braasch, if anyone wants to look him up.

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hockeybub89 posted...

How does being born with a penis prove laws must make it illegal for trans women to comingle with cis women?

not about being born with a penis, more about the biological advantage of men over women like the others pointed out

and even then, not everyone is created equal, non-athletic men can not compete with athletic women

but say in a sports scenario, we put the lowest ranked professional benched guys against the top team of women and the females might not have a chance

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Nukazie posted...

but say in a sports scenario, we put the lowest ranked professional benched guys against the top team of women and the females might not have a chance

why would we do this though

who is talking about this

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metallica846 posted...

What rules are they putting in place?

https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1091417/ioc-guidelines-transgender-tokyo-2020

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UnfairRepresent posted...

This is a bullshit argument.

You can't simutaniously argue that "there just isn't enough evidence due to the sheer small amount of transgenders" and at the same time argue that "All the examples of transgenders having massive advantages in the womens leagues don't count because there's so few cases!"

Hell that fact alone is incredibly damning for the physical reality of the biological human body.

Why do you think they segregated womens leagues in the first place?

The argument you're proposing is not only untrue, but to use it the argument would still be to keep transgender bans for female leagues in place until you provide "Adequate data" to prove there is no advantage. Not just keep ignoring blatant advantages and going "that doesn't count" over and over.

Serena Williams is a physical marvel.
She would be spanked by any top 300 male player with complete and utter ease.

You can't just ignore this because it sucks and you wish it wasn't true. That's religion. Don't fall for religion.

If you have evidence from actual studies, post that. Not anecdotes that don't even actually support your argument. I didn't argue that there isn't enough evidence due to the small number of trans women. Literally the most common example of a woman with the massive advantage you're talking about apparently didn't have enough of an advantage to avoid getting knocked out by one of those physically inferior women. That never seems to penetrate your thinking.

There is no situation where the default should be actual bans and segregation on classes of people. You are simply too quick to accept that type of thing. The entire history of our society and our laws says that you should have to prove otherwise. We've existed just fine as a society without the bans that are actually just now being enacted, not the other way around.


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Proto_Spark posted...

If just being a male was actually that big of an advantage, we'd have trans women breaking all the world records, but there are like 3 world records held by trans women right now. But because there isn't we need to get upset at a trans woman breaking a world record, or coming 6th at the high school track meet.

The world records argument is not ideal.

In sports, the method for leveling the field (i.e. fair play) is to eliminate or at least reduce unfair advantages. For example, we prohibit steroid use, although using steroids is not a guarantee that the enhanced athlete(s) will be breaking all the world records. In fact, most dont ever come close to that, but we still ban steroids because its considered an unfair advantage.

Of course, every individual sport has its own view of what is an unfair advantage, so we have some sports that implement weight class or age divisions and others that do not care about that at all, just as further examples.


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Guide posted...

The guy who beat both the sisters was Karsten Braasch, if anyone wants to look him up.

Yep he said the biggest difference in tenns is men can chase down shots faster and add spin to shots women simply can't handle.
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Do F2M's have a large advantage over M2F transgenders in sports?

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Why is it everyone can understand the physical difference between the male and female sex until the issue becomes trans people in sports?

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why is anyone talking about cis men is a topic about women's sports?

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Why even bother with Gendered Sports at this point?

Just unify all Sports under One Heading.

Sports, no Male/Female/Trans/etc.

Just everybody gets to participate in the same sport.

Wouldn't that solve most issues?

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I agree. No more gendered divide in sports . Would solve everything.

gunplagirl posted...

It's why they backed the bathroom laws. Because if trans people got killed that's okay. But if a transphobic cis person felt disgusted that a trans person might possibly have used the same bathroom as them, that's just too much to allow.

Why don't we just get rid of "Gendered Bathrooms" in general.

Seperate Bathrooms into Pee/Poo Bathrooms with Dedicated Lockable Privacy Stalls and Universal Urinals and Toilets for everybody?

Here are existing "Gender Neutral Urinals":



You can include small wash Basin's on top of Toilets / Urinals for extra privacy:




This would eliminate the line for the Female Bathrooms by making efficient use of all Toilets / Urinals for everybody.

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I'm not peeing in a sink.

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legendary_zell posted...

If you have evidence from actual studies, post that.

https://au.sports.yahoo.com/sports/clear-risk-transgender-athletes-facing-ban-from-world-rugby-035031452.html

More likely to be injured from competing agaisnt transgenders

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1252764

Post hormone therapy transgenders still have advantages over biological women.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3
https://www.endocrine-abstracts.org/ea/0041/ea0041EP397

We have shown that under testosterone suppression regimes typically used in clinical settings, and which comfortably exceed the requirements of sports federations for inclusion of transgender women in female sports categories by reducing testosterone levels to well below the upper tolerated limit, evidence for loss of the male performance advantage, established by testosterone at puberty and translating in elite athletes to a 1050% performance advantage, is lacking.

Rather, the data show that strength, lean body mass, muscle size and bone density are only trivially affected. The reductions observed in muscle mass, size, and strength are very small compared to the baseline differences between males and females in these variables, and thus, there are major performance and safety implications in sports where these attributes are competitively significant.

These data significantly undermine the delivery of fairness and safety presumed by the criteria set out in transgender inclusion policies, particularly given the stated prioritization of fairness as an overriding objective (for the IOC).If those policies are intended to preserve fairness, inclusion and the safety of biologically female athletes, sporting organizations may need to reassess their policies regarding inclusion of transgender women.

All the data is there.

I didn't argue that there isn't enough evidence due to the small number of trans women. Literally the most common example of a woman with the massive advantage you're talking about apparently didn't have enough of an advantage to avoid getting knocked out by one of those physically inferior women. That never seems to penetrate your thinking.

Er

You're confusing me with someone else. I never brought up Fallon Fox.

I brought up all the other examples, the ones you curiously uttely ignored and ran off from

And for the record going "No actually a transgender woman lost a sporting event, therefore she had no advantages whatsoever!" is such a stupid statement...

There is no situation where the default should be actual bans and segregation on classes of people.

Wat!?

You're against womens leagues?

You realize that would end female sport forever right?

No, you sometimes need seperate divisions for a thing to exist. If Combat Sports wasn't segregated into weight divisions all the little guys couldn't fight

You are simply too quick to accept that type of thing. The entire history of our society and our laws says that you should have to prove otherwise. We've existed just fine as a society without the bans that are actually just now being enacted, not the other way around.

...Because we didn't have transgender athletes trying to play until womens league until recently.

If a guy in the 40s claimed he was a girl in man's body and then tried to play womens football, he'd have the beaten by half the neighborhood every week of his life.

Which is awful and wrong but "We didn't need to consider these bans until they were relevant." is such a silly point.

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CyricZ posted...

I'm not peeing in a sink.

Nobody said anything about peeing in a sink.

You pee in the Urinal or Poo & Pee in the Toilet, then use the Wash Basin to wash your hands after you wipe.

The same water that the last person washed their hands with can be stored to flush the Toilet / Urinal.

That's more water efficient, by re-using Grey Water to flush instead of new Tap Water.

What are you, some Western Barbarian?

Are you so behind the times in Toilet Technology that Japan has to school you on the advances in Toilet tech?

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KamenRiderBlade posted...

Why even bother with Gendered Sports at this point?

Just unify all Sports under One Heading.

Sports, no Male/Female/Trans/etc.

Just everybody gets to participate in the same sport.

Wouldn't that solve most issues?

We have that already

It's called the "mens leagues"

Women are allowed to compete in them. They just can't

This is why womens leagues exist in the first place.

Why people keep ignoring this factis beyond me.

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KamenRiderBlade posted...

Here are existing "Gender Neutral Urinals":

That looks so uncomfortable.
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