Current Events > Am I pretty much on point when I say getting jobs are mostly based nepotism?

(+) Yeah! (+)

and not merit?

Long story short, wifey is mad and frustrated that no one is calling her past a first interview. I told her that the reason they do that is because they do that for show and they already have their person in mind for who they want to hire for the job.

I advised her that the best way to get the best jobs is to be personable and friendly to everyone she meets because. nobody truly ever knows who out there can help you. Someone you meet can seem useless but you never know (for example) if their mom or siblings have strong connections in the industry you are in.

She doesnt really want to do that because she believes that jobs should hire based on merit but. I have a feeling that her apps will almost always be in limbo and just sleeping in the office unless someone with connections can get the hiring manager to pick up her app

Am I right or wrong that theres almost no hope in getting the good jobs out there without knowing the right people?

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not to mention, its usually a risk to hire someone for a job that nobody knows because no one has any idea what they will get from them

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putang inaaaaaa

You are very on point, IMO.

Absolutely, has been this way since ancient times

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that depends on a lot of factors but I'm definitely finding that working in a specific industry and applying for jobs in that industry makes a huge difference. the number of factors that match from one situation to the next will determine how much people trust you.

or you could get a job based on nepotism. I never have. but what you're telling your wife isn't helpful even if it may be true. I have found that merit plays differently in different industries.

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Yes, networking is a thing

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I struggled for a long time before recently getting a pretty cool job.

My biggest advice is I completely gave up on applying for any job if they only advertised one opening. There are just too many listings that might as well be fake because they have somebody in mind and nothing you can do will change it. It becomes mentally exhausting to apply and interview when you know they are not taking you seriously as a candidate.

Make multiple openings the priority.

This is a horrible time to be job searching without connections of some kind and you need some luck to go your way. I don't care what anyone else says. Good luck to you.

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^This is also what I mentioned to her too. Most of these job openings online already have their guy/gal in mind. Theyre just posting the job listing to prove they are an equal opportunity employer.

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AzNDarkSamurai posted...

She doesnt really want to do that because she believes that jobs should hire based on merit

She is right that it should be that way, but the reality is that it isn't. She either has to adapt or she's going to have a lot of trouble finding jobs. You are on point 100%.

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Uh, no. I've gotten hired at plenty of jobs where I didn't know anyone.

AzNDarkSamurai posted...

not to mention, its usually a risk to hire someone for a job that nobody knows because no one has any idea what they will get from them

You lost me here.

Is she not submitting resume, dude?

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Jerry_Hellyeah posted...

You lost me here.

Is she not submitting resume, dude?

She is submitting a resume but resumes dont tell you everything. Take this from someone who knew a hiring manager in the past who told me these things.

Heres a few examples. It doesnt show you how good you are as a worker, it doesnt show you if you are a good culture fit, it doesnt show you if if you are easy (or hard) to work with, and many others.

Resumes are really only good for showing your work experience and not much else.

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bump

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bump.

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I think nepotism can be a factor, but in my experience, less so at larger organisations. I don't know how many jobs your partner has applied for, but I doubt they will all have had someone internal in mind, but feel that they have to advertise externally anyway. In the organisations that I've worked for (admittedly 2 of the 4 have been public sector and I live in the UK), they are far more likely to advertise internally in the first instance. I've never heard of any issues with them not looking like an "equal opportunities" employer because of this. I don't really know that this is an issue in the way that you seem to be saying it is.

I think it's more likely that your partner isn't getting jobs because there are justbetter people out there, or that she's just not qualified. Getting a new job is difficult, but I'm sure there are things that she can improve with her interview technique/skillset/experience that will help her.

Obviously I have no idea what sort of jobs she's going for, so things might be different in her industry.

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Nepotism and cronyism are big factors. Part of why shit never changes or improves at some places.

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for many positions, yes. you can pick up a job at walmart as a shelf stocker without it though, at least for now.

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According to required education by my Veteran's Assistance CBTs, only 25% of jobs are actually advertised. The vast majority of jobs are unadvertised, you simple know someone in the company and ask if they have a position. So in other words. TC is right.
I had a handy graph to go with this post but GFAQs upload limit didn't let me post it.

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Well

1. There is a difference between networking and nepotism, networking is important

2. Nah i hire strangers all the time. Nepotism happens but plenty of hires are on merit.

If youre too quick to dismiss the problem as someone else's fault youre gonna stagnate
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Uta posted...

According to required education by my Veteran's Assistance CBTs, only 25% of jobs are actually advertised. The vast majority of jobs are unadvertised, you simple know someone in the company and ask if they have a position. So in other words. TC is right.
I had a handy graph to go with this post but GFAQs upload limit didn't let me post it.

at my org my boss posted a position for me and then told me I had to apply. I dragged my feet a bit and he told me to hurry up because people were reaching out to him about it. idk if what rules there are around this and if they have to do with company size, public vs private etc.

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Uta posted...

According to required education by my Veteran's Assistance CBTs, only 25% of jobs are actually advertised. The vast majority of jobs are unadvertised, you simple know someone in the company and ask if they have a position. So in other words. TC is right.
I had a handy graph to go with this post but GFAQs upload limit didn't let me post it.

Most jobs might not be advertised, but TC's issues seems to be about jobs that are and why you might not get them after applying. There's a difference between acknowledging that most jobs aren't advertised, and blaming employers having candidates already in mind for jobs that you apply for.

"If youre too quick to dismiss the problem as someone else's fault youre gonna stagnate"

There really is something to this.

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At my wife's workplace, all of the managers recruited just so happened to be gym buddies of the hiring manager. I'm sure that was merely a colossal coincidence.

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Depends on the job, I think.

Grocery/retail will literally hire a corpse that no one knows. And if you've got years of experience in it and a shitty .txt resume? You're pretty much guaranteed a job if you apply.

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Being likeable is a huge part of getting hired. Unless your qualifications are truly unique and the job requires those specific unique qualifications, always assume there is another candidate that's just as good as you or good enough for the job imo. The tie breaker will be which one you want to chat with in the break room. But, more realistically, that will be a huge benefit over somebody that's better on paper than you.

And it's a completely appropriate hiring criterion imo, so long as the other needed qualifications are met. Business between companies and clients is built on trust, which requires decent relationships with people, which requires people skills.

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Jabodie posted...

And it's a completely appropriate hiring criterion imo, so long as the other needed qualifications are met. Business between companies and clients is built on trust, which requires decent relationships with people, which requires people skills.

This is such a bad mentality IMO.

The truth is nobody can really decide any of this in 30-45 minutes of an interview, yet countless hiring managers think they're "the employee whisperer" who can perfectly read the candidates personalities. It's pretty ridiculous, and because this thinking is so commonplace there's this whole industry that has emerged with a million different books on how to appear perfect in an interview.

And none of it even indicates how good you will actually be at the job itself.

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Turtlemayor333 posted...

This is such a bad mentality IMO.

The truth is nobody can really decide any of this in 30-45 minutes of an interview, yet countless hiring managers think they're "the employee whisperer" who can perfectly read the candidates personalities. It's pretty ridiculous, and because this thinking is so commonplace there's this whole industry that has emerged with a million different books on how to appear perfect in an interview.

And none of it even indicates how good you will actually be at the job itself.

Isnt this just an argument for hiring people you know? If you need more time than an interview takes, going with someone in your network is the safest route
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My last two jobs I got were 1) my brother worked at the company and put in a good word; and 2) I had a good relationship with the person doing the hiring (it was an internal transfer).

They still interviewed other people and I was qualified for both jobs but there was no real competition. And I'm sure I've also been on the other end of that. I did a number of interviews last year with no follow up.

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Maybe if you're a small business but it's pretty unprofessional and not the way a Fortune 500 company operates.

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Talent, education, being a decent person don't matter. It's all about sucking up. Sad but true.

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You are vastly more likely to get a job if are "good enough" and well liked opposed to being excellent at a job but people are neutral or blatently don't like you. Bottom line your character, reputation and ties to people matter more than your skillset once you reach a certain threshold.

Its all about knowing someone always. College degrees are pretty useless. The whole point of college is to get an internship and build that connection.

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Turtlemayor333 posted...

The truth is nobody can really decide any of this in 30-45 minutes of an interview, yet countless hiring managers think they're "the employee whisperer" who can perfectly read the candidates personalities. It's pretty ridiculous, and because this thinking is so commonplace there's this whole industry that has emerged with a million different books on how to appear perfect in an interview.

And none of it even indicates how good you will actually be at the job itself.

I am in an industry (structural engineering) where it is not uncommon to have interview sequences that are several hours long that, typically with one hour sessions with different people across different levels of responsibilities (for instance, my friend was in Seattle the other day going through a 5 hour interview process). This is of course on top of typical degree requirements and technical interviews, which pretty much filter out any unqualified or ummotivated candidates from the getgo.

There is technical prowess and work ethic aplenty available amongst candidates, but after a certain point there are diminishing returns with that prowess, and often diminishing people skills. What allows people to really make an impact is dealing well with clientele and contractors to make your company a desirable and trusted partner. And there is a dearth of those skills amongst those who make it past the technical filters.

I would guess your experience in the industry is the opposite: where there's a surplus on personality but a lack of a good filter for competence or work ethic.

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Can i just throw something out there as someone who somewhat regularly is the hiring manager for both entry level white collar jobs as well as 6 figure experienced positions?

I dont know enough people to fill jobs with nepotism. *especially* for the experienced positions.

Also, it is hard to fire people for underperformance. Really hard. Also, if it is someone i hired because i vouched for them, then suddenly i am the asshole.

Also also, most decent paying positions have a panel interview. It is rarely ever one person making the decision.

I do prefer internal hires in most cases. I can talk to their previous managers, they dont need as much training, the process is faster, and theyre probably cheaper. Right now i have a position i am posting that requires 2-3 years experience that i am betting will go to the internal candidate who messaged me last week looking for career advice. I'll still post it externally for a few weeks but the odds of getting a more qualified candidate in that time have been historically reeaaal slim.

Just to give some insight from the other side.
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Private companies are a lot like this which is why i try to avoid them.

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Explaining your skills and successfully is one rthing. But I mean yeah, she absolutely has to be likable and show enthusiasm in the interview, because they are looking for a cultural fit as well.

Once you get the job, you do have to be in a good relationship with your manager. Some people kiss ass. But just try to perform it well and do t give them more work or a hard time.

Having connections is important, but Talent and personality/cultural fit do matter in the end.

Turtlemayor333 posted...

I struggled for a long time before recently getting a pretty cool job.

My biggest advice is I completely gave up on applying for any job if they only advertised one opening. There are just too many listings that might as well be fake because they have somebody in mind and nothing you can do will change it. It becomes mentally exhausting to apply and interview when you know they are not taking you seriously as a candidate.

Make multiple openings the priority.

This is a horrible time to be job searching without connections of some kind and you need some luck to go your way. I don't care what anyone else says. Good luck to you.

is it really the most horrible time to be job searching? A lot of people left their jobs in the past 2 months and companies are desperate to fill them up.

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Arcanine2009 posted...

Explaining your skills and successfully is one rthing. But I mean yeah, she absolutely has to be likable and show enthusiasm in the interview, because they are looking for a cultural fit as well.

Once you get the job, you do have to be in a good relationship with your manager. Some people kiss ass. But just try to perform it well and do t give them more work or a hard time.

Having connections is important, but Talent and personality/cultural fit do matter in the end.

is it really the most horrible time to be job searching? A lot of people left their jobs in the past 2 months and companies are desperate to fill them up.

Yeah I would definitely challenge the idea that it's a terrible time to be looking for a job. It is somewhat true that there's a huge gap between the jobs companies are looking to fill and the kind most people are qualified for and want to do. There are huge numbers of software developer and analyst jobs open, for example. There is also a huge number of retail positions open. Both unfilled for different reasons. So you can apply that example on a much broader scale and that's basically the situation.

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Yeah, don't lose hope. I lost my job a month ago and in the shittiest way possible, so unemployed at the moment. But there's plenty of jobs in my industry. I just hope to find the one that fits me, and pays around the same as my last job.

But yeah, there is definitely nepotism in work places. You can use it to your advantage though, at least when finding a job. Get a LinkedIn and network. and if you know any friends or ex coworkers in your industry who are hiring in their companies, they can put a good word in and increase your chances of getting in.

You don't have to be the one that brown noses to your manager. Just perform well and be on food terms with everyone in your team.

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Veggeta_MAX posted...

Private companies are a lot like this which is why i try to avoid them.

It can even happen in government. I worked for an agency where a woman got put in charge due to vocally supporting a certain administration. She was absolutely unqualified. She applied and was rejected thrice for an entry level gig. Next election she was put in charge.

When she got in, she brought in her husband's best buddy and literally promoted trainees to supervisors. Incumbent supervisors had to train their replacements.

There was a massive lawsuit and settlement but the perpetrators went unscathed. They called themselves "The Tea Party".

A bonehead "cost effective" security procedure they approved led to a shooting in which someone was killed. That settlement is pending.

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^it can definitely happen in the government

My mom (before she died) worked there for a long time and she has seen nepotism happen left and right

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