Current Events > Elden Ring Director Miyazaki won't stop making difficult games.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Here's my hot take. The souls community makes the games harder than they need to be. Each new souls game keeps offering the players new tools to take on the more challenging bosses but the community stubbornly refuses to use them and insists that the only correct way to play is to stay at sl 100 and duel every boss with a melee weapon and maybe a shield if you can't git gud.

Elden Ring to date offers the widest aresnal for players to date and so many of the players are not going to use them making the game far more punishing then the devs probably intended. And worse yet those same players will shame others for using them - we're already seeing this with people arguing over using ash summons.

I really enjoyed how Nioh for the most part didn't have this issue and most people embraced using everything the game offered.

IronWolf87 posted...

Each new souls game keeps offering the players new tools to take on the more challenging bosses but the community stubbornly refuses to use them and insists that the only correct way to play is to stay at sl 100 and duel every boss with a melee weapon and maybe a shield if you can't git gud.

That's not true. The only time people commit to souls level is for PvP. There is a point where your stats give you a diminishing return though.

and the melee weapon is definitely not true because i remember DS1 everyone spamming magic and DS2 was the same up until the DLCs.

Bloodborne had some crazy builds that the community came up with. I honestly dont know why you guys spread false stuff like this lol

UnfairRepresent posted...

Once again his explanation is "Well the elitist fanboys expect it so we have to oblidge them" rather than why it's a good idea.

"Not every game has to be for everyone" is such a bullshit rationalization.

If you added mandatory pointless 7 minute pauses where nothing happens into the middle of Doom Eternal every time you enter a new a room. It'd make the game suck.

Going "well not every game has to be everyone." wouldn't be a defense of that

I don't even have a dog in this fight. I just think the toxic nature of the hardcore fans is not a good thing.

The good is the joy one feels when overcoming the difficulty in his games, it says it in the snippet. If you don't experience joy from overcoming the difficulty of the games than the game is not for you. In his mind adding in difficulty settings defeats the purpose of making it that hard in the first place.

What really gets me is that every time a new souls game comes out, it's always the easiest and most casual in the series. The same shit happens with Monster Hunter, and no one ever thinks that it could just seem easier because you've played all the other games

IronWolf87 posted...

Here's my hot take. The souls community makes the games harder than they need to be. Each new souls game keeps offering the players new tools to take on the more challenging bosses but the community stubbornly refuses to use them and insists that the only correct way to play is to stay at sl 100 and duel every boss with a melee weapon and maybe a shield if you can't git gud.

Elden Ring to date offers the widest aresnal for players to date and so many of the players are not going to use them making the game far more punishing then the devs probably intended. And worse yet those same players will shame others for using them - we're already seeing this with people arguing over using ash summons.

I really enjoyed how Nioh for the most part didn't have this issue and most people embraced using everything the game offered.

one of my least favorite things about souls fans is the (sub?)conscious dick measuring. saw a streamer tell someone they won't play elden ring using spells because they want to play the game cleanly. what. or how people are sometimes like "...you use shields?"

yeah dude they're in the game lol.

I4NRulez posted...

That's not true. The only time people commit to souls level is for PvP. There is a point where your stats give you a diminishing return though.

and the melee weapon is definitely not true because i remember DS1 everyone spamming magic and DS2 was the same up until the DLCs.

Bloodborne had some crazy builds that the community came up with. I honestly dont know why you guys spread false stuff like this lol

Bro what? People commit to soul levels not just for pvp but to coop in general. I'm sure some people have lots of alts and one of those is pve only, but a lot of folks make 1 or 2 chars and need to stick to the community agreed up sl if they want to do any multiplayer.

One of the most common questions on the boards leading up to er release was what the sl meta was gonna be.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

The good is the joy one feels when overcoming the difficulty in his games, it says it in the snippet. If you don't experience joy from overcoming the difficulty of the games than the game is not for you. In his mind adding in difficulty settings defeats the purpose of making it that hard in the first place.

"The devs are allowed to do what they like." isn't a defense of anything. It's a lazy non-statement and frankly an admission that you think the concept has no rational defense.

If someone was putting dirt into their tea, the notion of "Well they;'re allowed to do that!" would be seen as a weird explanation for WHY they do it. What the benefit is.

As would be "Well dirt tea isn't for everyone."

And you know it.

Just make some tea and have dirt as an option for people who want dirt in their tea. That way literally everyone winsI mean it really comes down to something this simple:

Would it bother you if millions of people had an amazing time playing a version of Dark Souls that you would never ever play because it was easier?

If the answer is "yes" then you're toxic IMO. And that's not a good thing. It's not something to proud of

Would be like if millions of people got furiously angry at the Oddworld Abe's Oddysee remake because it added an optional quicksave feature.

Just don't fucking use it if you don't want to.

Honestly Pathologic 2's dev utterly destroyed this silly gatekeeper logic.

https://youtu.be/q00T0xxj2o0?t=2417

They released a game.

It was really hard. It was intended to be hard. The Devs wanted it to be hard and the intended purpose of the game was that you died over and over. Part of the art/story and emotion was built on that rockbed. The absolute intended experience was to fail repeatedly, struggle and most people give up before they reach the end.

People complained the game is too hard.

Devs added in optional difficulty settings and openly said "We don't like these and don't want you to use them since it's not the experience we intended but since you wanted them here they are as an option."

Then everyone got to enjoy the game and absolutely nobody suffered in any way whatsoever. The fanbase is fantastic and there is no toxicity at all of any note.

The devs even noted that a ton of people who played their games just used cheats and mods anyway so why not just make it easier for them if that's the experience they wanted even if the devs didn't.

"We'd rather give players a tweaked experience than none at all."

~ Sane person

Just immediately inadvertantly proves that the Dark Souls nonsense is purely because their fans are largely toxic and the devs know that, so they play to them. Not for any actual benefit beyond feeling superior to others

And the sheer fact not a one of you can defend the practice or respond to these points outside of rhetoric says it all

And on an unrelated cheeky personal note: Pathologic 1 and 2 are far superior to Dark Souls in terms of atmosphere and writing if you're a "Games are art" or "I like hard games." snob.

And (x3) guess what? I've never used the sliders in Pathologic 2. It's almost like giving the player choice does nothing but empower the experience of the player! Fancy that!

Which again says something I think.

good

UnfairRepresent posted...

Honestly Pathologic 2's dev utterly destroyed this silly gatekeeper logic.

https://twitter.com/duskdev/status/1164924006199439362

Unlike From I doubt they had much of a choice. Doesn't sound like it made much of a difference in the end.

Yeah I'm sorry but I don't want a bunch of sliders in my games. Coming from someone who was big into sports games about a decade ago, sliders are a pain in the ass for the player/community and a crutch for the developer to point to and say "make your own experience." So what happens is you would play a game of Madden on default settings and get some weird result like 6 interceptions, then dive into the menus and try to figure out what the interception slider "should" be on. But it's complex trying to balance player skill, realism, player attributes, coaching attributes, etc. with some arbitrary value you can set anywhere from 1 to 100.

Figuring out how sliders interact with other sliders or other difficulty options, some sliders have clear impact while others seem to be placebo. How many games should you use as a sample size? etc. etc.

Part of me really wants to argue that sliders are more for the hardcore elitist than not having them. I don't want to imagine this junk in Elden Ring.

Turtlemayor333 posted...

Yeah I'm sorry but I don't want a bunch of sliders in my games. Coming from someone who was big into sports games about a decade ago, sliders are a pain in the ass for the player/community and a crutch for the developer to point to and say "make your own experience." So what happens is you would play a game of Madden on default settings and get some weird result like 6 interceptions, then dive into the menus and try to figure out what the interception slider "should" be on. But it's complex trying to balance player skill, realism, player attributes, coaching attributes, etc. with some arbitrary value you can set anywhere from 1 to 100.

Figuring out how sliders interact with other sliders or other difficulty options, some sliders have clear impact while others seem to be placebo. How many games should you use as a sample size? etc. etc.

Part of me really wants to argue that sliders are more for the hardcore elitist than not having them. I don't want to imagine this junk in Elden Ring.

This doesn't make sense

In this case the sliders were literally placed into the game after it was released.

Going "Well a game might be badly designed like Madden, therefore player agency is a terrible thing!"

Again that's a non-sequitur.

A game might also make it's subtitles 30 feet per letter, that doesn't make subtitle options a bad thing.

UnfairRepresent posted...

"The devs are allowed to do what they like." isn't a defense of anything. It's a lazy non-statement and frankly an admission that you think the concept has no rational defense.

If someone was putting dirt into their tea, the notion of "Well they;'re allowed to do that!" would be seen as a weird explanation for WHY they do it. What the benefit is.

As would be "Well dirt tea isn't for everyone."

And you know it.

Just make some tea and have dirt as an option for people who want dirt in their tea. That way literally everyone winsI mean it really comes down to something this simple:

Would it bother you if millions of people had an amazing time playing a version of Dark Souls that you would never ever play because it was easier?

If the answer is "yes" then you're toxic IMO. And that's not a good thing. It's not something to proud of

Would be like if millions of people got furiously angry at the Oddworld Abe's Oddysee remake because it added an optional quicksave feature.

Just don't fucking use it if you don't want to.

Honestly Pathologic 2's dev utterly destroyed this silly gatekeeper logic.

https://youtu.be/q00T0xxj2o0?t=2417

They released a game.

It was really hard. It was intended to be hard. The Devs wanted it to be hard and the intended purpose of the game was that you died over and over. Part of the art/story and emotion was built on that rockbed. The absolute intended experience was to fail repeatedly, struggle and most people give up before they reach the end.

People complained the game is too hard.

Devs added in optional difficulty settings and openly said "We don't like these and don't want you to use them since it's not the experience we intended but since you wanted them here they are as an option."

Then everyone got to enjoy the game and absolutely nobody suffered in any way whatsoever. The fanbase is fantastic and there is no toxicity at all of any note.

The devs even noted that a ton of people who played their games just used cheats and mods anyway so why not just make it easier for them if that's the experience they wanted even if the devs didn't.

"We'd rather give players a tweaked experience than none at all."

~ Sane person

Just immediately inadvertantly proves that the Dark Souls nonsense is purely because their fans are largely toxic and the devs know that, so they play to them. Not for any actual benefit beyond feeling superior to others

And the sheer fact not a one of you can defend the practice or respond to these points outside of rhetoric says it all

And on an unrelated cheeky personal note: Pathologic 1 and 2 are far superior to Dark Souls in terms of atmosphere and writing if you're a "Games are art" or "I like hard games." snob.

And (x3) guess what? I've never used the sliders in Pathologic 2. It's almost like giving the player choice does nothing but empower the experience of the player! Fancy that!

Which again says something I think.

is this game multiplayer?

UR: I dont like it so everyone shouldnt like it.

Everyone else: thats not how this works.

UR: THATS NOT HOW THINGS WORK THOUGH. IF I DONT LIKE IT, IT SHOILD BE CHANGED!

Literally how this topic is going. Mind you, for something that UR doesnt have a dog in the fight for, but hes still getting buttmad and posting walls of texts. But again, he doesnt care.

He also just incorrectly stated the reason given for the design choices to argue using parameters that were never valid or even present to begin with.

When I beat a Souls gamein those moments I feel euphoric. Including an optional easy mode for others would be a negative impact to my sense of pride and accomplishment.

Why do people insist on feeding UR in 2022

He's just confirming what people having been saying for years. That is the point of the games and why they're so successful.

If you don't like the intentional difficulty, then you have thousands of other games you can play instead. Not every game needs to appeal to everyone. This routine insistence that they must is bizarre.

The devs staying true to their artistic vision is the only reason anyone needs. No one is entitled to others work and art, if you want to hack the game and put cheat codes in then awesome, do that, but dont demand the devs to do it for you.

"I dont like Aardman Animations' style of animation and that they should have a second version of Chicken Run in traditional animation to appeal to those that had nightmares from claymation."

See how dumb that argument is?

If Miyazaki wants his games to be difficult than just say so

the idea that his games and his games only are about "overcoming hardship" is so stupid. all games rely on players feeling pleasure from accomplishing tasks/overcoming challenges. that doesn't mean they all have to be brutally punishing. it's 2022 and developers have the means to make easy modes relatively quickly and easily.

again, if you want to make a difficult game, make a difficult game. but don't try to have your cake and eat it too by saying "I wish everyone could enjoy my games!" and then not doing anything about it.

souls games are only as hard as you want them to be
you can literally have other people carry you through the entire game
you can out level and outgear every boss by farming ezpz community curated farming spots
in elden ring you can run past 90% of overworld threats on a fuckin horse
a large amount of encounters have cheese strats galore

Enemy damage is only one small part of the difficulty. It's also getting ganked and stunlocked. Even late game builds can have surprise deaths if low level mobs surround you.

Plus there's also places like Sen's Fortress. How do you take bullshit out of that? Damage sliders won't help there.

BlackBlueButts posted...

How do you take bullshit out of that?

Pay more attention to your surroundings? Read the messages on the ground? Watch the bloodstains?

BlackBlueButts posted...

Even late game builds can have surprise deaths if low level mobs surround you.

I think this is great tbh.

colliding posted...

If Miyazaki wants his games to be difficult than just say so

the idea that his games and his games only are about "overcoming hardship" is so stupid. all games rely on players feeling pleasure from accomplishing tasks/overcoming challenges. that doesn't mean they all have to be brutally punishing.

While I haven't played Elden Ring, none of his other games are brutally punishing. That's the fantasy image people who haven't played them and just cry about no easy mode on twitter has made of them.

So derp.

UR:
"You can't hurt me, CE"

CE:
*stabs UR through head with a sword*

UR in purgatory:
"By my standards, that's not a real sword, so I'm not really dead. Also, it really sucks here in the UK."

Sphyx posted...

UR:
"You can't hurt me, CE"

CE:
*stabs UR through head with a sword*

UR in purgatory:
"By my standards, that's not a real sword, so I'm not really dead. Also, it really sucks here in the UK."

Lol

sktgamer_13dude posted...

UR: I dont like it so everyone shouldnt like it.Everyone else: thats not how this works.

UR: THATS NOT HOW THINGS WORK THOUGH. IF I DONT LIKE IT, IT SHOILD BE CHANGED!

no one said that. You're not listening to a single thing anyone Is saying

All your claims of strawmen and bad analogies are total protection and hypocrisy

again total toxicity

Literally how this topic is going. Mind you, for something that UR doesnt have a dog in the fight for, but hes still getting buttmad and posting walls of texts. But again, he doesnt care.

its literally not how the topic is going, you're literally lying

Seaman_Prime posted...

The devs staying true to their artistic vision is the only reason anyone needs. No one is entitled to others work and art, if you want to hack the game and put cheat codes in then awesome, do that, but dont demand the devs to do it for you.

Again

The devs are allowed to do what they like." isn't a defense of anything. It's a lazy non-statement and frankly an admission that you think the concept has no rational defense.

If someone was putting dirt into their tea, the notion of "Well they;'re allowed to do that!" would be seen as a weird explanation for WHY they do it. What the benefit is.

As would be "Well dirt tea isn't for everyone."

And you know it.

Just make some tea and have dirt as an option for people who want dirt in their tea. That way literally everyone winsI mean it really comes down to something this simple:

Would it bother you if millions of people had an amazing time playing a version of Dark Souls that you would never ever play because it was easier?

If the answer is "yes" then you're toxic IMO. And that's not a good thing. It's not something to proud of

Would be like if millions of people got furiously angry at the Oddworld Abe's Oddysee remake because it added an optional quicksave feature.

Just don't fucking use it if you don't want to.

Honestly Pathologic 2's dev utterly destroyed this silly gatekeeper logic.

https://youtu.be/q00T0xxj2o0?t=2417

They released a game.

It was really hard. It was intended to be hard. The Devs wanted it to be hard and the intended purpose of the game was that you died over and over. Part of the art/story and emotion was built on that rockbed. The absolute intended experience was to fail repeatedly, struggle and most people give up before they reach the end.

People complained the game is too hard.

Devs added in optional difficulty settings and openly said "We don't like these and don't want you to use them since it's not the experience we intended but since you wanted them here they are as an option."

Then everyone got to enjoy the game and absolutely nobody suffered in any way whatsoever. The fanbase is fantastic and there is no toxicity at all of any note.

The devs even noted that a ton of people who played their games just used cheats and mods anyway so why not just make it easier for them if that's the experience they wanted even if the devs didn't.

"We'd rather give players a tweaked experience than none at all."

~ Sane person

Just immediately inadvertantly proves that the Dark Souls nonsense is purely because their fans are largely toxic and the devs know that, so they play to them. Not for any actual benefit beyond feeling superior to others

And the sheer fact not a one of you can defend the practice or respond to these points outside of rhetoric says it all

And on an unrelated cheeky personal note: Pathologic 1 and 2 are far superior to Dark Souls in terms of atmosphere and writing if you're a "Games are art" or "I like hard games." snob.

And (x3) guess what? I've never used the sliders in Pathologic 2. It's almost like giving the player choice does nothing but empower the experience of the player! Fancy that!

Which again says something I think.

There's a solid reason why everyone gets furious by this post and screams insults toxicly but yet can't respond to a word of it

@UnfairRepresent

Are you still trapped in the UK?

The only thing he's trapped in is his own head

Frankly if there was enough demand for an easy mode they would implement it, but as it stands enough people enjoy 'dirt tea' that there's no need

Maybe you can start a petition or a boycott to make your dreams come true, and while you're at it take a swing at every other game that exists and doesn't have difficulty settings

Turtlebread posted...

Frankly if there was enough demand for an easy mode they would implement it, but as it stands enough people enjoy 'dirt tea' that there's no need

So you're flat out admitting there is 0 benefit or defense for the practice

Just that you think it makes money through toxicity .

Which is the entire point.

I don't like romance movies, they should have more guns and explosions, a lot of other people would like that. Sure, the creator had their own vision and I could just as easily find a movie in a genre I enjoy, but fuck them.

UnfairRepresent posted...

So you're flat out admitting there is 0 benefit or defense for the practice

sure, and from fromsofts point of view there are no drawbacks either

gmanthebest posted...

I don't like romance movies, they should have more guns and explosions, a lot of other people would like that. Sure, the creator had their own vision and I could just as easily find a movie in a genre I enjoy, but fuck them.

Analogy doesn't work. No one is calling for a change in plot or genre (or a change of any kind)

its more akin to a romance movie not having subtitle options, not having volume or brightness settings, not having scene selection or fast forward

And then going "Fuck you, this is the directors vision! " when asked why.

Why does it bother you if Billy in Amsterdam skips the opening logo and puts subtitles on? doesn't effect you watching the movie at all

I really have to ask why you people keep engaging with Unfair in a way if you're expecting an honest response to anything you throw his way. His gimmick is in his username even if you don't know his history.

A better analogy would be like when Bong Joon Ho said they won't dub Parasite and people should just read the subtitles. And he was right lol

Smashingpmkns posted...

A better analogy would be like when Bong Joon Ho said they won't dub Parasite and people should just read the subtitles. And he was right lol

that's also pretty toxic but it's more like "I won't dub or sub and the volume is really low. You have to learn Korean and listen closely to enjoy this experience. Also you can't skip scenes. "

I'll repeat the (one of dozens) point no one will respond to:

Would it bother you if millions of people had an amazing time playing a version of Dark Souls that you would never ever play because it was easier?

No one will answer that question because the answer is yes and they know full well it's toxic as hell but they're too toxic to admit it.

DeadBankerDream posted...

I really have to ask why you people keep engaging with Unfair in a way if you're expecting an honest response to anything you throw his way. His gimmick is in his username even if you don't know his history.

Yeah I mean, like I pointed out, in this topic he even flat out admits he has no dog in this race. What more do you need lol

Again with the protection

claiming I'm dishonest when all I've done is raise unchallenged ironclad points that thwarted you

Meanwhile you've lied repeatedly and insulted me over and over

just to defend toxicity

you're lucky the mods hate me, if you treated any other user the same way you'd be suspended

scar the 1 posted...

Yeah I mean, like I pointed out, in this topic he even flat out admits he has no dog in this race. What more do you need lol

It is kinda funny to see him have a meltdown because he isnt getting the argumentative engagement he wants though.

UnfairRepresent posted...

Again with the protection

claiming I'm dishonest when all I've done is raise unchallenged ironclad points that thwarted you

Meanwhile you've lied repeatedly and insulted me over and over

just to defend toxicity

you're lucky the mods hate me, if you treated any other user the same way you'd be suspended

Stop being so aggressively argumentative for no reason.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

There's a swarm of mods, cheats, trainers for every Dark Souls game.

And a heap of people who complain that it's unplayable for them. You make fun of them for it, then pretend they don't exist depending on which stance at that moment is the more toxic.

UnfairRepresent posted...

waaaaaaah

But dont forget, you dont have a dog in this fight.

UnfairRepresent posted...

I don't even have a dog in this fight.

sure you dont

These games are popular because they are hard.

Dark Souls fans are toxic!
Why wont these devs make the game how I want them too! They must be gatekeeping elitists!
Sorry Unfair but you are being toxic here simply because you cant accept or understand anybody elses point of view and worse you cant let it go and just say nasty things about the community.
And again artists can make their art however they want, that is a valid reason as much as you dont like it.

Seaman_Prime posted...

Dark Souls fans are toxic!
Why wont these devs make the game how I want them too! They must be gatekeeping elitists!
Sorry Unfair but you are being toxic here simply because you cant accept or understand anybody elses point of view and worse you cant let it go and just say nasty things about the community.
And again artists can make their art however they want, that is a valid reason as much as you dont like it.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]



"The devs are allowed to do what they like." isn't a defense of anything. It's a lazy non-statement and frankly an admission that you think the concept has no rational defense.

If someone was putting dirt into their tea, the notion of "Well they;'re allowed to do that!" would be seen as a weird explanation for WHY they do it. What the benefit is.

As would be "Well dirt tea isn't for everyone."

And you know it.

Just make some tea and have dirt as an option for people who want dirt in their tea. That way literally everyone winsI mean it really comes down to something this simple:

Would it bother you if millions of people had an amazing time playing a version of Dark Souls that you would never ever play because it was easier?

If the answer is "yes" then you're toxic IMO. And that's not a good thing. It's not something to proud of

Would be like if millions of people got furiously angry at the Oddworld Abe's Oddysee remake because it added an optional quicksave feature.

Just don't fucking use it if you don't want to.

Honestly Pathologic 2's dev utterly destroyed this silly gatekeeper logic.

https://youtu.be/q00T0xxj2o0?t=2417

They released a game.

It was really hard. It was intended to be hard. The Devs wanted it to be hard and the intended purpose of the game was that you died over and over. Part of the art/story and emotion was built on that rockbed. The absolute intended experience was to fail repeatedly, struggle and most people give up before they reach the end.

People complained the game is too hard.

Devs added in optional difficulty settings and openly said "We don't like these and don't want you to use them since it's not the experience we intended but since you wanted them here they are as an option."

Then everyone got to enjoy the game and absolutely nobody suffered in any way whatsoever. The fanbase is fantastic and there is no toxicity at all of any note.

The devs even noted that a ton of people who played their games just used cheats and mods anyway so why not just make it easier for them if that's the experience they wanted even if the devs didn't.

"We'd rather give players a tweaked experience than none at all."

~ Sane person

Just immediately inadvertantly proves that the Dark Souls nonsense is purely because their fans are largely toxic and the devs know that, so they play to them. Not for any actual benefit beyond feeling superior to others

And the sheer fact not a one of you can defend the practice or respond to these points outside of rhetoric says it all

And on an unrelated cheeky personal note: Pathologic 1 and 2 are far superior to Dark Souls in terms of atmosphere and writing if you're a "Games are art" or "I like hard games." snob.

And (x3) guess what? I've never used the sliders in Pathologic 2. It's almost like giving the player choice does nothing but empower the experience of the player! Fancy that!

Which again says something I think.

And still nobody can respond to any of it

Its just an admission of how toxic it is without the courage to admit that it's bad to be that toxic.

Which is the problem. Especially the part about "You can't accept my point of view."

When my entire point from the start is that "My point of view is that it's good that other people get fucked for no reason." is what the issue of contention was in the first place.

"We'd rather give players a tweaked experience than none at all." ~ Sane person

Vs

"We'd rather you get no experience at all than anything other than what we demand and what we demand is set up solely to empower toxic people, not for any benefit" - Toxic person

Something nobody has had the courage to comment on due to toxicity

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

And then everyone clapped